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Zenithe
Feb 25, 2013

Ask not to whom the Anidavatar belongs; it belongs to thee.

Niggurath posted:

You seriously have never heard the tired trope of "Oh she may look like a sexualized 12 year old but she's really a 5,000 year old demon...so it's cool!". I mean that's pretty much a main stay in Disgaea's character roster.

Ok, so they used a convention that has been used before. Why is this particular case a parody, as opposed to the numerous examples of this "tired trope" that presumably aren't?

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discworld is all I read
Apr 7, 2009

DAIJOUBU!! ... Daijoubu ?? ?

Zenithe posted:

Ok, so they used a convention that has been used before. Why is this particular case a parody, as opposed to the numerous examples of this "tired trope" that presumably aren't?
Because it's clearly a joke? I just can't take the game that uses the word waifu as something to be taken seriously or as biting social commentary. If people were actually looking for a failed attempt at that, then I'm sure they'd play Read Only Memories rather than playing the game with just a guest appearance from a character from that.

EclecticTastes
Sep 17, 2012

"Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."

Niggurath posted:

Because it's clearly a joke? I just can't take the game that uses the word waifu as something to be taken seriously or as biting social commentary. If people were actually looking for a failed attempt at that, then I'm sure they'd play Read Only Memories rather than playing the game with just a guest appearance from a character from that.

What about the character or dialog screams "joke" to you? Just because there is rampant evidence that this game was made by total weebs doesn't mean they're parodying any of the cliches they're using. They could just as easily be just using them normally.

discworld is all I read
Apr 7, 2009

DAIJOUBU!! ... Daijoubu ?? ?

EclecticTastes posted:

What about the character or dialog screams "joke" to you? Just because there is rampant evidence that this game was made by total weebs doesn't mean they're parodying any of the cliches they're using. They could just as easily be just using them normally.
Well from watching just a bit of Dorothy's dialogue it seems that she attempted to buy camouflage to cater to some bizarre invisible person fetish and yet they gave her the wrong optic camo to where she just couldn't be seen by cameras. So pretty obvious joke there that still managed to be about her prostitution job, but it was clearly a joke meant to poke fun possibly at bizarre future fetishes and quite possibly maybe the weird selective camo that was worn by Mokoto in 'Ghost in the Shell'. It's quite easy for me to see it as a joke.

Hwurmp
May 20, 2005

Is it some kind of ironic meta-parody where it's played straighter than the source material, and that's the joke somehow?

Anoia
Dec 31, 2003

"Sooner or later, every curse is a prayer."
Please don't put this game on the same level as Snatcher.

And while we're at it, mods please rename this thread to Cyberpunk Honeypot Action cause holy poo poo I'm learning things about people I did not want to know.

Anoia fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Jul 24, 2016

Hwurmp
May 20, 2005

What will goons compare this game to next?

A) The Shawshank Redemption
B) The Holy Bible
C) Humans' first use of fire

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

Really Pants posted:

What will goons compare this game to next?

A) The Shawshank Redemption
B) The Holy Bible
C) Humans' first use of fire

You're getting too salty about this Anime VN for nerds.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011

Rigged Death Trap posted:

You're getting too salty about this Anime VN for nerds.

The high crime of anime

Hwurmp
May 20, 2005

Rigged Death Trap posted:

You're getting too salty about this Anime VN for nerds.

I'm actually enjoying how awful it all is. I can't wait for the next new customer to come in and say "Man it's so GRIMDARK out there in our post-cyberpocalypse world, I can't believe [something that might have actually been interesting to see] happened today, now can I interest you in some fresh human organs?" or whatever their deal's gonna be

Hwurmp fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Jul 24, 2016

Pavlov
Oct 21, 2012

I've long been fascinated with how the alt-right develops elaborate and obscure dog whistles to try to communicate their meaning without having to say it out loud
Stepan Andreyevich Bandera being the most prominent example of that

Niggurath posted:

Because it's clearly a joke? I just can't take the game that uses the word waifu as something to be taken seriously or as biting social commentary. If people were actually looking for a failed attempt at that, then I'm sure they'd play Read Only Memories rather than playing the game with just a guest appearance from a character from that.

You are right, it is a joke. But a joke does not make parody. To be parody you have to mimic something without actually being that very thing. If you make a parody of a racist 4chan meme, and 4chan latches onto it and starts reposting it unironically, you haven't made a parody, you just made a racist 4chan meme. A few days ago I checked the steam reviews for this game and found this:



And the devs don't seem to discourage this. In fact can you guess what their twitter avatar is? I bet you can.

Similarly to be satire, it would have to be contemptuous of, or at least unapologetically critical of something. Just being silly and making references doesn't cut it. A few posts back I outlined some examples of things you could do with Dorothy that might qualify, but we just did another recording session and surprise, they haven't gone that route. Actually she's gotten worse.


Also god drat I was incoherent this last episode. If I start mumbling about vampires again feel free to throw me in the drunk tank.

shibbotech
Aug 21, 2014

I'm Doctor Shibbo, and this is Jackass.
Nap Ghost
Everyone in the drat thread seems to have unacceptable salt levels. People riffing on the game because they don't like it aren't personally attacking everyone who did enjoy it. People defending the game aren't inherently the scum of the earth attempting to justify moral depravity in all its forms.

For gently caress's sake the only reason I'm in this at all is because I wanted to have some booze with internet strangers. We're all adults here, can we ease up with the poo poo-stirring? It's a goddamn LP of an anime visual novel, in a year none of us will even remember this thread.

...I just want us all to be friends. :eng99:

HMS Boromir
Jul 16, 2011

by Lowtax

Pavlov posted:

And the devs don't seem to discourage this. In fact can you guess what their twitter avatar is? I bet you can.
Also you can call trap sprung on this but I used to hang out in some of the more unpleasant parts of the internet in my teenage years and I'd like to point out that the "DFC" in Dorothy's model number absolutely stands for "Delicious Flat Chest". :suicide:

I Killed GBS
Jun 2, 2011

by Lowtax
why did you make a video LP of a VN

Pavlov
Oct 21, 2012

I've long been fascinated with how the alt-right develops elaborate and obscure dog whistles to try to communicate their meaning without having to say it out loud
Stepan Andreyevich Bandera being the most prominent example of that
Shibbo I think we recorded at least one drunken tirade where you tell everyone who likes this game to go gently caress themselves.

I Killed GBS
Jun 2, 2011

by Lowtax
Also I am IRL a woman with a glandular disorder that makes her look much younger than she really is
Think Gary Coleman
We do exist outside of skeevy anime stuff y'know

Hwurmp
May 20, 2005

Small Frozen Thing posted:

Also I am IRL a woman with a glandular disorder that makes her look much younger than she really is
Think Gary Coleman
We do exist outside of skeevy anime stuff y'know

I have good news and bad news

lots of people are anxious to marry you

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011

shibbotech posted:

People defending the game aren't inherently the scum of the earth attempting to justify moral depravity in all its forms.

This is actually pretty much exactly what you've been suggesting the whole time.

Sazero
Nov 27, 2014

The classiest crazy bullshit magic Half-Elf, you'll ever meet.
Please quote your sources.

I Killed GBS
Jun 2, 2011

by Lowtax

Really Pants posted:

I have good news and bad news

lots of people are anxious to marry you

Oh cool, thanks for the condescending joke

Never heard that one before

Pavlov
Oct 21, 2012

I've long been fascinated with how the alt-right develops elaborate and obscure dog whistles to try to communicate their meaning without having to say it out loud
Stepan Andreyevich Bandera being the most prominent example of that

Rodyle posted:

This is actually pretty much exactly what you've been suggesting the whole time.

As caustic as I can come off, I'm going to take a more nuanced position. I think that this game, like a lot of stuff, is easy to glide through without thinking about it too hard. You don't have any dialogue choices, so it doesn't ask you to actually take a position on anything the game brings up. It doesn't really challenge you, and if you give it the benefit of the doubt, it's probably good for a cheap laugh.

But this is a game acclaimed for its excellent writing, and that asks you to treat the game as writing, and think about what that writing says. We're saying that what it says just happens to also be awful.

Small Frozen Thing posted:

Also I am IRL a woman with a glandular disorder that makes her look much younger than she really is
Think Gary Coleman
We do exist outside of skeevy anime stuff y'know

I'm confused. Do you identify with the fetish-obsessed sexbot hooker built to look like a 12 year old?

Hwurmp
May 20, 2005

Small Frozen Thing posted:

Oh cool, thanks for the condescending joke

Never heard that one before

Alright, I apologize for being thoughtless. It can't be pleasant, to say the very least, to have a debilitating disorder and see idiots make a fetish out of it, and I shouldn't stoop to that level.

Drakenel
Dec 2, 2008

The glow is a guide, my friend. Though it falls to you to avert catastrophe, you will never fight alone.
Look what this game has done to us. we've turned on each other like rabid dogs.

This game is guilty of any crime it may be that.

I Killed GBS
Jun 2, 2011

by Lowtax

Pavlov posted:

I'm confused. Do you identify with the fetish-obsessed sexbot hooker built to look like a 12 year old?

More than I do with you, almost certainly.

Edit: But really, that's only because she probably wouldn't have made a VLP of a VN.

Anoia
Dec 31, 2003

"Sooner or later, every curse is a prayer."

Small Frozen Thing posted:

why did you make a video LP of a VN

*takes a drink*

Small Frozen Thing posted:

More than I do with you, almost certainly.

Edit: But really, that's only because she probably wouldn't have made a VLP of a VN.

And another!

Holy poo poo, I was wrong before, it actually does work.

Anoia fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jul 24, 2016

BENGHAZI 2
Oct 13, 2007

by Cyrano4747
Why did you make a video LP of a VN

I Killed GBS
Jun 2, 2011

by Lowtax
Having now played this game a bit, I can actually agree with the thread premise, re: it is indeed bad.

My apologies.

I stand by my previous question though.

Hwurmp
May 20, 2005

I like the videos because they provide a more authentic experience

it feels like I'm right there, clicking on the drink ingredients and the dialogue advance button

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"


To be fair with the whole built to look like a twelve year old I can sort of see a reason for it. They're not emotionally/mentally mature unless they pass 3 tests, as we've been told, at which point they're given an adult body, so the young look is "meant" to be a deterrent from attacking them and they have special nano-bots so that if someone does attack the immature robot they get jailed. However from what I've seen it seems Dorothy completed those tests and then decided that she wanted to specifically target an audience as a prostitute, because she can make them pay more for what is presumably a completely legal way to work out their own disturbed sexual desires, she also just happens to enjoy sex too which explains why she's making a job out of it.

Now I'm not saying this is good, and the writing so far has been terrible to mediocre at best, but I can imagine a character like Dorothy being interesting in a much better written game/story. Also didn't notice the DFC model thing which is just in poor taste.

The other characters similarly could be interesting in a better written game/story. In my opinion Donovan comes off as the best written because he is the least strange character and thus easiest to write well, which suggests to me the people making this game just aren't particularly clever writers.

So what I'm saying is there's some interesting ideas here, it just fails to explore or do anything with them, at least as far as I've seen. Even Ingram could be an interesting character, someone who gives absolutely no shits whatsoever and is sort of the ultimate bad hedonist, who will try anything once because in the cyberpunk future there's no limits beyond your money and he's stinking rich. He could be an interesting mirror of your own situation as given, where you have to pick and choose specific things you enjoy because you're nearly broke and really need money for rent and food, everything else is a luxury. In fact make that a game-play mechanic, at the end of the day you have to spend money wisely or you get various bad endings. Could even work it into a potential ask people to move on mechanic, where if you find a person particularly uncomfortable you can have them removed or pass them on to Gill but in return you don't get as much money, so you really get this idea that your job is lovely but without it you'd just be screwed.

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

IMO if you're going to tackle uncomfortable subjects head on, dont let the uncomfortableness level dip until you've finished addressing it. If you do relent you'd risk muddling your message about it. Which this game quite utterly fails at. It tries to be parody yet wants you to take it seriously enough to connect, then nosedives right back down into parodic scenes and shallow characters, it doesn't fully commit. Parody can be a tool for the exploration of certain subjects, but that's it, a tool. Not the key. And The message doesn't even have to be anything deep or profound, just consistently delivered.



[e] Though christ dorothy is most definitely not the way to address that sorta thing.

Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jul 24, 2016

Anoia
Dec 31, 2003

"Sooner or later, every curse is a prayer."

Rigged Death Trap posted:

IMO if you're going to tackle uncomfortable subjects head on, dont let the uncomfortableness level dip until you've finished addressing it. If you do relent you'd risk muddling your message about it. Which this game quite utterly fails at. It tries to be parody yet wants you to take it seriously enough to connect, then nosedives right back down into parodic scenes and shallow characters, it doesn't fully commit. Parody can be a tool for the exploration of certain subjects, but that's it, a tool. Not the key. And The message doesn't even have to be anything deep or profound, just consistently delivered.



[e] Though christ dorothy is most definitely not the way to address that sorta thing.

Yes, this exactly.

You've got today's internet subculture parodies all jumbled up in the cyberpunk dystopia and they do not mix well at all. The game careens from sex robots, to street warfare, to chan references references... and while it's possible to somehow juggle the heavy poo poo and the comedy like chainsaws and bowling pins, they failed.

If you still enjoy it, well, hey, there's still the spectacle of seeing someone fumbling with all that, I guess.

EclecticTastes
Sep 17, 2012

"Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."
By the way, concerning the discussion early on in the last episode, it was Otakon who said it. It's always Otakon.

And yes, MGS did start that meme.

Pavlov
Oct 21, 2012

I've long been fascinated with how the alt-right develops elaborate and obscure dog whistles to try to communicate their meaning without having to say it out loud
Stepan Andreyevich Bandera being the most prominent example of that

Small Frozen Thing posted:

I stand by my previous question though.

SSLPs are tedious to make. If you're going to spend that effort, you need to either (1) be fond of the material, or (2) be an incredible masochist.

I do not think Zen is either of those.

I don't think he's even finished the game yet. He needs a gaggle of heckling drunks to push him the rest of the way.



Only if you promise that next time you leap to defend an anime, you will at least watch/play it first.

EponymousMrYar
Jan 4, 2015

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy.

HMS Boromir posted:

Also you can call trap sprung on this but I used to hang out in some of the more unpleasant parts of the internet in my teenage years and I'd like to point out that the "DFC" in Dorothy's model number absolutely stands for "Delicious Flat Chest". :suicide:
Here I assumed it was something innocuous like 'Dolls For Cyberpunk' but I can totally buy this :suicide:
(Hazy memory corollary: Kira Miki has a similar model designation.)

Lord_Magmar posted:

To be fair with the whole built to look like a twelve year old I can sort of see a reason for it. They're not emotionally/mentally mature unless they pass 3 tests, as we've been told, at which point they're given an adult body, so the young look is "meant" to be a deterrent from attacking them and they have special nano-bots so that if someone does attack the immature robot they get jailed. However from what I've seen it seems Dorothy completed those tests and then decided that she wanted to specifically target an audience as a prostitute, because she can make them pay more for what is presumably a completely legal way to work out their own disturbed sexual desires, she also just happens to enjoy sex too which explains why she's making a job out of it.

If you remove the whole 'appears younger than they are' trope and her explicit intent on capitalizing that trope from Dorothy she fits in with a lot of my experiences with people who are open and accepting about their sexuality. The reactions to people around her support this in that while friendly, she can easily make them uncomfortable.

But then you've got the trope layer on top of that which just makes things worse. (It's ok Dorothy, I still like you for who you are. Lets just be friends. No not those kind of friends.)

EclecticTastes
Sep 17, 2012

"Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic cannot be stopped."

EponymousMrYar posted:

If you remove the whole 'appears younger than they are' trope and her explicit intent on capitalizing that trope from Dorothy she fits in with a lot of my experiences with people who are open and accepting about their sexuality. The reactions to people around her support this in that while friendly, she can easily make them uncomfortable.

To give this game credit where absolutely none is due, Dorothy also reminds me of people I've met who loudly proclaim how open and accepting about their sexuality they are, as though people with the social graces not to talk about their peccadilloes incessantly somehow aren't. That is to say, she comes off as someone whose actual personality is so empty and bland that they pretty much have to shock everyone around them with their not-nearly-as-unusual-as-they-believe kinks or stories of their sexual escapades in order to appear at all interesting. If this game actually went anywhere with that, it would make Dorothy at least a character with some modicum of depth.

Zenithe
Feb 25, 2013

Ask not to whom the Anidavatar belongs; it belongs to thee.

Zenithe posted:

There have been several comments regarding why this is a VLP rather than a SSLP, and I feel showing this to people who have mixed amounts of experience with this game to be the most interesting, and that can't really be captured as well through screenshots I feel. As we continue through, this may change.

I Killed GBS
Jun 2, 2011

by Lowtax

Pavlov posted:

SSLPs are tedious to make. If you're going to spend that effort, you need to either (1) be fond of the material, or (2) be an incredible masochist.

I do not think Zen is either of those.

I don't think he's even finished the game yet. He needs a gaggle of heckling drunks to push him the rest of the way.


Only if you promise that next time you leap to defend an anime, you will at least watch/play it first.

gently caress off you sanctimonious turd. I didn't leap in to defend anything.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

BENGHAZI 2
Oct 13, 2007

by Cyrano4747

this still doesn't really make sense though

Anoia
Dec 31, 2003

"Sooner or later, every curse is a prayer."

Small Frozen Thing posted:

Having now played this game a bit, I can actually agree with the thread premise, re: it is indeed bad.

My apologies.

I stand by my previous question though.

Wait... You never actually even played the game but you came in here saying you identified with Dorothy? :crossarms:

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I Killed GBS
Jun 2, 2011

by Lowtax

Anoia posted:

Wait... You never actually even played the game but you came in here saying you identified with Dorothy? :crossarms:

whoosh

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