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Donald Trump is the reason people for a generation said you should not go around accusing your opponents of being fascists because it neuters the comparison
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Jul 25, 2016 19:32
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Radish posted:If Hillary loses to Trump it's because the DNC put up a bad candidate. Trump is a joke and anyone should be happy to run against him. I still think Hillary will make a good President but if she is so tarnished after twenty years of character assassination the fact of the matter is that should be an important consideration in her elect-ability to a country that isn't made up entirely of Democrats. Saying the leftists threw this election because a small percentage of them that were never going to vote for her anyway is just a way to overlook the fact that the democrats were outmaneuvered by a charismatic fascist that appealed to white supremacy while they couldn't get enough people energized to vote. How is this any different from saying that leftism can't fail, it can only be failed? The biggest flaw in leftist politics has always been its tendency to foster ideological infighting. It's a constant battle to wrangle enough liberals to work together to achieve anything of meaning. If American leftists can't band together long enough to defeat an outright fascist, then the ideology is just fundamentally broken here and we need to find a new path moving forward. Doubling down on a fatally flawed political system doesn't make any sense at all.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:32
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If Hillary loses my black rear end is getting the gently caress out of here on the first boat, just like how we got here in the first place. It will be another case of white people loving up and I am tired of it.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:34
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Kaal posted:How is this any different from saying that leftism can't fail, it can only be failed? The biggest flaw in leftist politics has always been its tendency to foster ideological infighting. It's a constant battle to wrangle enough liberals to work together to achieve anything of meaning. If American leftists can't band together long enough to defeat an outright fascist, then the ideology is just fundamentally broken here and we need to find a new path moving forward. Doubling down on a fatally flawed political system doesn't make any sense at all. That's mostly a two party system thing though, the American left is Everyone That Isn't Republican and so have real trouble fully uniting.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:35
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Because the implication (by some) is that the current leftward shift of the Democratic platform and the audacity of running to the left of the DNC candidate in the primary is the reason that Hillary is going to lose. If Hillary loses it's because she couldn't get enough people to vote for her. People aren't voting for Donald Trump because the Democrats are too left wing, they are voting for him because he is an authoritarian bigot that tells them what they want to hear. The democrats aren't owed the vote of every leftist and they didn't need them to elect Obama twice in a row. If Hillary gets the same turnout that Obama did, and she should considering her platform is similar and Trump is about as anti-minority as you can get, she will win. If she doesn't it means she wasn't as energizing and loved as we were told. Hillary supporters to me often feel like they have so little faith in their own candidate they are constantly looking for reasons to explain how she is going to lose in four months. Cabbit posted:If Hillary loses it's because people are too loving dumb to vote for the person who isn't a literal loving fascist strongman. This is true but at some point it's Hillary's job to explain that fact and if no one can do that because the country is so far gone then we are hosed either way. Hillary should not be getting less votes for Obama since these super anti establishment leftists weren't voting for him then either. If we get some polling that shows a massive decrease in Hillary's numbers in two week then yeah lets start blaming the leftists for abandoning her but man is it early to start freaking the hell out and over some dumb stunt. The DNC people are supposed to be the sensible ones, stop arzying. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 19:39
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Pellisworth posted:considering Bernie was overwhelmingly the candidate of younger voters, I'd say this was a triumph for leftist/progressive candidates regardless of whether Trump wins or loses. the next Dem nominee will need to be much more in the mold of Sanders rather than another centrist like Clinton or Obama, because that's where the demographics are headed The demographic argument is really bad because America is becoming less white, not more. More realistically the next Democratic candidate will be nothing like Sanders, because 1. Sanders hasn't shared the spotlight with any lower-tier candidates to carry the torch, and 2. It's pretty clear that going after Sanders voters brings more trouble than it's worth since they have such an unanswerable array of politics. Democrats aren't going to risk torching their big tent again.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:41
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Fluffdaddy posted:If Hillary loses my black rear end is getting the gently caress out of here on the first boat, just like how we got here in the first place. As a white person, we really are the loving worst
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Jul 25, 2016 19:42
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Kaal posted:The demographic argument is really bad because America is becoming less white, not more. More realistically the next Democratic candidate will be nothing like Sanders, because 1. Sanders hasn't shared the spotlight with any lower-tier candidates to carry the torch, and 2. It's pretty clear that going after Sanders voters brings more trouble than it's worth since they have such an unanswerable array of politics. Democrats aren't going to risk torching their big tent again. Translation: leftist policies should be excluded from the democratic platform.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:45
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Radish posted:Because the implication (by some) is that the current leftward shift of the Democratic platform and the audacity of running to the left of the DNC candidate in the primary is the reason that Hillary is going to lose. If Hillary loses it's because she couldn't get enough people to vote for her. People aren't voting for Donald Trump because the Democrats are too left wing, they are voting for him because he is an authoritarian bigot that tells them what they want to hear. The democrats aren't owed the vote of every leftist and they didn't need them to elect Obama twice in a row. If Hillary gets the same turnout that Obama did, and she should considering her platform is similar and Trump is about as anti-minority as you can get, she will will. If she doesn't it means she wasn't as energizing and loved as we were told. haven't the right been telling us that everyone hates her and she's the worst and loves to kill children like daily
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Jul 25, 2016 19:45
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The only reason the US won't pull a Brexit and elect Trump is because we're less white than the UK by a large margin (64% non-Hispanic white vs. like almost 90% in the UK).
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Jul 25, 2016 19:46
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I think it's adorable that people here are earnestly treating a contest between Clinton and Trump as a principled battle between ideologies. It's a tribal conflict between two coalitions. The Democrats are representing the affluent and credentialed upper 10% of income earners plus the largest minority blocks such as blacks and hispanics. The GOP are represented an increasingly diminished white middle class. Both sides have a bunch of support from industries that would stand to benefit from their success. Both sides have some cranky billionaire donors. Neither side primarily relies on grassroots enthusiasm from ideological volunteers. Neither party appeals to voters based on ideology (did they ever?). The winner will be determined by how much money is spent in a handful of states like Florida. Neither the liberals nor the conservatives are strong enough to sway an election in which most voters have no coherent ideology.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:46
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Yinlock posted:haven't the right been telling us that everyone hates her and she's the worst and loves to kill children like daily They have and that should be a consideration on her viability as a candidate as unfair as that is. I still think she's going to win but I wouldn't have been as sure if the GOP didn't nominate someone as divisive as Trump. sean10mm posted:The only reason the US won't pull a Brexit and elect Trump is because we're less white than the UK by a large margin (64% non-Hispanic white vs. like almost 90% in the UK). I think this is true as well. Of course we'd have president Romney now if that was the case so maybe that would have stayed off the Trumpocalypse.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:47
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sean10mm posted:The only reason the US won't pull a Brexit and elect Trump is because we're less white than the UK by a large margin (64% non-Hispanic white vs. like almost 90% in the UK). also there's actually like a tiny, tiny undercurrent of Racism Is Bad in america, while Europe is basically casual racism land, the theme park for no ages. Helsing posted:I think it's adorable that people here are earnestly treating a contest between Clinton and Trump as a principled battle between ideologies. It's a tribal conflict between two coalitions. The Democrats are representing the affluent and credentialed upper 10% of income earners plus the largest minority blocks such as blacks and hispanics. The GOP are represented an increasingly diminished white middle class. Both sides have a bunch of support from industries that would stand to benefit from their success. Both sides have some cranky billionaire donors. Neither side primarily relies on grassroots enthusiasm from ideological volunteers. Neither party appeals to voters based on ideology (did they ever?). ah yes the elite fatcat democrats
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Jul 25, 2016 19:49
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Yinlock posted:also there's actually like a tiny, tiny undercurrent of Racism Is Bad in america, while Europe is basically casual racism land, the theme park for no ages. lmao
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Jul 25, 2016 19:50
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botany posted:lmao i did say tiny in that the old white people at least have to pretend they don't hate minorities sometimes
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Jul 25, 2016 19:51
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Yinlock posted:also there's actually like a tiny, tiny undercurrent of Racism Is Bad in america, while Europe is basically casual racism land, the theme park for no ages. Isn't Bloomberg literally speaking today? What do you call him?
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Jul 25, 2016 19:51
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Helsing posted:I think it's adorable that people here are earnestly treating a contest between Clinton and Trump as a principled battle between ideologies. It's a tribal conflict between two coalitions. The Democrats are representing the affluent and credentialed upper 10% of income earners plus the largest minority blocks such as blacks and hispanics. The GOP are represented an increasingly diminished white middle class. Both sides have a bunch of support from industries that would stand to benefit from their success. Both sides have some cranky billionaire donors. Neither side primarily relies on grassroots enthusiasm from ideological volunteers. Neither party appeals to voters based on ideology (did they ever?). Donald loving Trump and Zodiac Killer represent the middle class, said nobody sane ever
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Jul 25, 2016 19:51
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I always love when people posit minority groups as a special interest block without a consistent ideology as if "I would like to stop being murdered by cops" is someone not a meaningful political ideology
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Jul 25, 2016 19:51
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I always love when people posit minority groups as a special interest block without a consistent ideology as if "I would like to stop being murdered by cops" is someone not a meaningful political ideology thats just how america is dude, accept it and vote for a democrat
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Jul 25, 2016 19:53
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Radish posted:People aren't voting for Donald Trump because the Democrats are too left wing, they are voting for him because he is an authoritarian bigot that tells them what they want to hear. The democrats aren't owed the vote of every leftist and they didn't need them to elect Obama twice in a row. If Hillary gets the same turnout that Obama did, and she should considering her platform is similar and Trump is about as anti-minority as you can get, she will will. If she doesn't it means she wasn't as energizing and loved as we were told. People are voting for Donald Trump because progressive politics are failing to articulate a compelling message. This is both because the message is insufficiently compelling (aka the battle between Clinton's pursuit of Obama-style progressivism vs. Sanders leftists who want their nebulous revolution) and because the message is being garbled by competing ideas (aka every liberal group/discussion/protest ever). If American liberals can't get together to craft a message that can challenge Trump's outright fascism, then frankly the ideology is just fatally flawed.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:53
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Kaal posted:If American liberals can't get together to craft a message that can challenge Trump's outright fascism, then frankly the ideology is just fatally flawed. I think its less the ideology and more that mostly there are no real leaders on the left. The democratic party are not very good progressive leaders because they are far more willing to move to the right than to the left. I'd love to live in a world where we could see someone like MLK or any of the other well spoken black activist leaders(malcom x, fred hampton) in politics right now, but for some reason they were all killed.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:57
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Kaal posted:The demographic argument is really bad because America is becoming less white, not more. More realistically the next Democratic candidate will be nothing like Sanders, because 1. Sanders hasn't shared the spotlight with any lower-tier candidates to carry the torch, and 2. It's pretty clear that going after Sanders voters brings more trouble than it's worth since they have such an unanswerable array of politics. Democrats aren't going to risk torching their big tent again. My argument was about age, not race. If Democrats don't expand their tent to include the millennials and other more left-leaning groups, they will lose. Hillary got attacked from the left in the primary and Bernie was a credible contender, you can't just eject the left wing of the Democratic party as being "too much trouble," the party isn't going to win without them. Kaal posted:People are voting for Donald Trump because progressive politics are failing to articulate a compelling message. This is both because the message is insufficiently compelling (aka the battle between Clinton's pursuit of Obama-style progressivism vs. Sanders leftists who want their nebulous revolution) and because the message is being garbled by competing ideas (aka every liberal group/discussion/protest ever). If American liberals can't get together to craft a message that can challenge Trump's outright fascism, then frankly the ideology is just fatally flawed. Actually people are voting for Trump because neither the establishment GOP nor the Dems are offering a compelling message that addresses the poo poo sandwich of the last few decades of Reaganism. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 19:57
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Yinlock posted:i did say tiny in that the old white people at least have to pretend they don't hate minorities sometimes you have 5% of the world's population, you have 25% of the world's prison population. 12% of your population is black, 60% of your prison population is non-white. you have racism literally codified into your law books via mandatory minimum sentencing etc. black males between 15 and 34 make up 2% of your population, but more than 15% of deaths by cop. tell me one single european country that is comparable to that.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:59
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Pellisworth posted:My argument was about age, not race. What could they possibly do? Policy wise they have given them everything they asked for, Save Hillary and Debbie's heads on pikes!
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Jul 25, 2016 19:59
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Kaal posted:People are voting for Donald Trump because progressive politics are failing to articulate a compelling message. This is both because the message is insufficiently compelling (aka the battle between Clinton's pursuit of Obama-style progressivism vs. Sanders leftists who want their nebulous revolution) and because the message is being garbled by competing ideas (aka every liberal group/discussion/protest ever). If American liberals can't get together to craft a message that can challenge Trump's outright fascism, then frankly the ideology is just fatally flawed. again under the two-party system this is kind of impossible, the republicans always(or have been always) vote lockstep and the democrats are basically just Everyone Else lumped together to oppose them. It's kind of impossible to fully unite everyone like the bigots can. There's a drawback to the republican approach though, in that they've had to pander so hard to the same people that they've slid headfirst into fascism. There's more than one ideology at play here, and writing the whole left off as a failure because decades of media corruption and an orange conman are convincing people to vote against themselves seems a bit extreme. Having many different opinions and views in one government is a good thing! It is, however, extremely terrible for a single party.
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Jul 25, 2016 20:00
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greatn posted:What could they possibly do? Policy wise they have given them everything they asked for, Save Hillary and Debbie's heads on pikes! My point was that the next Dem candidate will need to be to the left of Hillary to appeal to younger voters. Most Millenials will be well into their late 20s and 30s by that point.
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Jul 25, 2016 20:02
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botany posted:you have 5% of the world's population, you have 25% of the world's prison population. 12% of your population is black, 60% of your prison population is non-white. you have racism literally codified into your law books via mandatory minimum sentencing etc. black males between 15 and 34 make up 2% of your population, but more than 15% of deaths by cop.  in the uk a referendum ran on complete open racism and won.(those are Syrian refugees btw and that was an actual add that someone signed off on)
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Jul 25, 2016 20:03
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Radish posted:Because the implication (by some) is that the current leftward shift of the Democratic platform and the audacity of running to the left of the DNC candidate in the primary is the reason that Hillary is going to lose. If Hillary loses it's because she couldn't get enough people to vote for her. People aren't voting for Donald Trump because the Democrats are too left wing, they are voting for him because he is an authoritarian bigot that tells them what they want to hear. The democrats aren't owed the vote of every leftist and they didn't need them to elect Obama twice in a row. If Hillary gets the same turnout that Obama did, and she should considering her platform is similar and Trump is about as anti-minority as you can get, she will win. If she doesn't it means she wasn't as energizing and loved as we were told. Thank you, folks should read this and relax a hair. Fluffdaddy posted:If Hillary loses my black rear end is getting the gently caress out of here on the first boat, just like how we got here in the first place. In fairness, white women vote decently. It's white men that are the problem. 2008 votes for President by gender: Women  Men  Sorry for all my fellow white men being so awful. Also apparently Hawaii is bizarro world.
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Jul 25, 2016 20:04
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Yinlock posted:again under the two-party system this is kind of impossible, the republicans always(or have been always) vote lockstep and the democrats are basically just Everyone Else lumped together to oppose them. It's kind of impossible to fully unite everyone like the bigots can. There's a drawback to the republican approach though, in that they've had to pander so hard to the same people that they've slid headfirst into fascism. There's more than one ideology at play here, and writing the whole left off as a failure because decades of media corruption and an orange conman are convincing people to vote against themselves seems a bit extreme. Well frankly if the drawback to the Democratic "kitchen sink" approach is four to eight years of fascism, then I really don't see how that can be seen as anything but utter failure. American leftism needs to take a long, serious look at itself, and start reconsidering some of its sacred cows.
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Jul 25, 2016 20:04
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botany posted:you have 5% of the world's population, you have 25% of the world's prison population. 12% of your population is black, 60% of your prison population is non-white. you have racism literally codified into your law books via mandatory minimum sentencing etc. black males between 15 and 34 make up 2% of your population, but more than 15% of deaths by cop. Hate crimes went up 5-fold after Brexit and hit 6,000+/month, and the UK foreign minister is a guy who basically called Obama a spearchucker, so they're certainly working on closing up the gap!
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Jul 25, 2016 20:04
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Pellisworth posted:My point was that the next Dem candidate will need to be to the left of Hillary to appeal to younger voters. Most Millenials will be well into their late 20s and 30s by that point. Maybe they will grow the gently caress up by then
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Jul 25, 2016 20:05
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New YouGov poll has Clinton up. Yay
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Jul 25, 2016 20:05
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Kaal posted:People are voting for Donald Trump because progressive politics are failing to articulate a compelling message. This is both because the message is insufficiently compelling (aka the battle between Clinton's pursuit of Obama-style progressivism vs. Sanders leftists who want their nebulous revolution) and because the message is being garbled by competing ideas (aka every liberal group/discussion/protest ever). If American liberals can't get together to craft a message that can challenge Trump's outright fascism, then frankly the ideology is just fatally flawed. The issue is that the message that is resonating with Trump voters is nationalism and bigotry. The Democrats have to compete with a platform that is inconsistent and makes no real sense because Trump supporters assign whatever ideology they have to him and don't care what he does or says as long as it's loud and assholish. There's no way to out message that if it turns out that Trump is going to win based on a message of nothing. Throwing out the leftists and thinking you can get people that either voted for Trump or sat out because of some political infighting is ridiculous. In four years if Trump wins the establishment Democrats will be fighting about something different because they aren't all clones of each other, it's how a tent party works and in a system where there are only two parties, both are tent parties. You aren't going to win elections by consolidating around pure DNC supporters while the Republicans burn everything to the ground. "Hmm I want to vote for the Democrats but some guys at their convention were really obnoxious. Guess I'll just sit home and let the guy advocating loving over NATO and rounding up latinos and Muslims win" said by no moderate ever. No voters give a poo poo about this infighting except political wonks. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 20:05
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:New YouGov poll has Clinton up. Yay Polls are meaningless
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Jul 25, 2016 20:06
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Yinlock posted:
so no then
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Jul 25, 2016 20:06
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botany posted:you have 5% of the world's population, you have 25% of the world's prison population. 12% of your population is black, 60% of your prison population is non-white. you have racism literally codified into your law books via mandatory minimum sentencing etc. black males between 15 and 34 make up 2% of your population, but more than 15% of deaths by cop. Let's not dickwave about who is more racist here and pretend like white men everywhere aren't in fact The Worst.
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Jul 25, 2016 20:06
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Pellisworth posted:My point was that the next Dem candidate will need to be to the left of Hillary to appeal to younger voters. Most Millenials will be well into their late 20s and 30s by that point. Yeah and their politics will shift as a result of that aging. You can't just say, "Young white people voted for Sanders so that's where the future is." It's not how demographics work at all.
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Jul 25, 2016 20:07
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greatn posted:Maybe they will grow the gently caress up by then ah yes, it's the fault of those stupid entitled kids with their twitting and i-pads political ideologies are usually formed when you're young so I doubt that's going to change much Kaal posted:Yeah and their politics will shift as a result of that aging. You can't just say, "Young white people voted for Sanders so that's where the future is." It's not how demographics work at all. source that suggests people become more centrist or conservative with age?
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Jul 25, 2016 20:07
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Lightning Knight posted:Let's not dickwave about who is more racist here and pretend like white men everywhere aren't in fact The Worst. of course they are, I'm just tired of US posters pointing at the EU, which by and large has a lot more openly racist rhetoric but much less structural racist policies, to make themselves feel better.
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Jul 25, 2016 20:08
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Kaal posted:Well frankly if the drawback to the Democratic "kitchen sink" approach is four to eight years of fascism, then I really don't see how that can be seen as anything but utter failure. American leftism needs to take a long, serious look at itself, and start reconsidering some of its sacred cows. I'm almost there don't stop
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