|
You also need to read that section of Batman that covers what the hell he was doing in the leadup to and during Final Crisis, Batman 682-684 (Last Rites) and Batman 700-702 (Missing Chapter). Man Morrison couldn't have made the entirety of Batman's arc during Final Crisis more confusing to comprehend if he loving tried. Ed- Also, take this with a giant loving grain of salt because I generally don't like Batman, Incorporated and especially volume 2, but volume 2 is post-New 52 and thus integrates N52 canon. To that end it'd probably be useful to read a couple of issues of Snyder's Batman before jumping back into Batman, Incorporated volume 2 because Morrison isn't the architect of the Batbooks any more, Snyder is, and Morrison's forced to tailor volume 2 to the canon that Snyder implements in his book. The experience is less disorienting if you're aware of the heavily rewritten canon and status of Snyder's Bruce Wayne and various members of his supporting cast when jumping back to Batman, Inc. Finally, you should probably also read Tomasi's Batman and Robin and Tom King's Grayson, because King's the only one who really ends up using elements of Morrison's canon he implemented but didn't finish and Tomasi's Batman and Robin run, on top of being the probable overall best and most consistent run of comics of all the N52, takes a whole bunch of character elements and ideas Morrison ruminates on and pays them all off for incredible emotional dividends. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Aug 14, 2016 |
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 04:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 01:53 |
|
|
Toxxupation posted:You also need to read that section of Batman that covers what the hell he was doing in the leadup to and during Final Crisis, Batman 682-684 (Last Rites) and Batman 700-702 (Missing Chapter).
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 04:37
|
|
|
Morrison's best Batman story, and indeed the best Batman story ever written is Batman R.I.P. Come on. Fight me.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 04:45
|
|
|
Toxxupation posted:Morrison's best Batman story, and indeed the best Batman story ever written is Batman R.I.P.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 04:48
|
|
|
You gotta go back for Batman and Robin, man. You missed DickBats! Do people generally not like Battle for the Cowl? I never see anyone talk about it. I really like Dick's monologue at the end.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 05:23
|
|
|
I don't get the big deal about DickBats, Bruce Wayne is a dick when he's Batman too.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 05:27
|
|
|
SonicRulez posted:Do people generally not like Battle for the Cowl? I never see anyone talk about it. I really like Dick's monologue at the end.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 05:44
|
|
|
The Killing Joke is a good batman comic as is The Dark Knight Returns.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 05:48
|
|
|
Hey Travis343, that's one of the best ops I've seen in years. Everyone who spent two pages trying to correct your recommendations list should feel my waves of disappointment cascading toward them. Anyway, batmanning: I know why every Freeze story goes back to Heart of Ice, but at the same time, even the cartoon itself had at least three episodes and a movie after that origin story. There are other great Mr. Freeze tales to tell.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 08:01
|
|
|
I love Scalera's variants 
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 10:34
|
|
|
That's pretty swell. Like a Sunday drive gone wrong.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 11:17
|
|
|
Reminder: Batman Confidential #49 is one of the best single issues Batman stories ever.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 13:37
|
|
|
Squizzle posted:I know why every Freeze story goes back to Heart of Ice, but at the same time, even the cartoon itself had at least three episodes and a movie after that origin story. There are other great Mr. Freeze tales to tell. Arkham Manor gave Freeze a couple of cool moments, I'd like to see that iteration of "morally gray ice wizard who just wants to play" more often.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 16:56
|
|
|
If we are going to talk about some deep cuts for best Batman stories (ie not KJ, DKR, or Y1), these are my picks: Batman: Blades - This is an arc from Legends of the Dark Knight (#32-34) featuring some awesome Tim Sale art and story by James Robinson. Batman is on the hunt of a serial killer and it is taking away his attention from his regular Batman duties, so he entrusts new hero the Cavalier to do the nightly patrols. Sadly enough Cavalier has a secret of his own. Why sadly? Well you would have to read the story yourself Why I love it? Besides the great Tim Sale art (Sale being one of the best Batman artist ever). the Cavalier comes across as a character from the 40's and it really adds to an incredible story about love, revenge, determination and obsession. Batman: Black Mirror For all the talk about Snyder's Batman run, but I felt his Detective Comics stuff was his best work. Working off a psychological thriller and bringing more history to Gordon, this comics is a tightly focused thrill ride, coupled with some great art by Jock and this is not just a great Batman comic but a great comic in general. Basically, Dick is being Batman for the time being and he has to solve some heinous crimes (and some other weird stuff as well) and coming into the front is James Gordon Jr, the estranged son of Commissioner Gordon, who has his on dark past and sinister ideas to vex the Batman. Why I love it? Dark, unnerving and well paced. This is Snyder at his best. Plus no reliance on Joker is always a plus. Batman: No Mans Land This is a mega-event done right. Usually events become too bloated and meaningless, but this felt like something different, even more so than Knightsend. Gotham has been hit by an earthquake. The USA, tired of Gothams poo poo, decides to declare the whole area a No Mans Land. The villains are running rampant trying to set themselves up as warlords. The people are just trying to survive. It's Game of Thrones in a Mad Max world. Also, where is Batman? Why I love it? Top writers and artists bring about an amazing, tightly done (for a mega-event) story, which took Batman and his family and put them in a different setting.It works. Batman: Officer Down Another excellent crossover event. Written by Rucka and Brubaker, this is like a precursor to Gotham Central. The story goes that Commissioner Gordon has been shot. The police and Batman are desperate to find the shooter. The event deals more with the police and Batman's relationship towards Gordon, and sets the seeds for Gotham Central where the police becomes more of the focus than the Bat himself. Why I love it? Besides being a good short crossover event, you can see mechinations that led to the excellent Gotham Central which deserves a big read itself. Seriously read Gotham Central. Read it right now. Before it is too late. Batman: Last Arkham This is the first arc from Batman: Shadow of the Bat, and focuses on Batman trying to solve a string of murders by going undercover in Arkham Asylum. Another psychological thriller, the story gives more backstory to Arkham the doctor, and sets up an interesting antagonist (though not villain, that is Zsazs in this story) to Batman. Why I love it? It's a fun story by Alan Grant who was writing some excellent Batman stories in the 80's and 90's and is worth checking out if you want to see Batman solve mysteries instead of punching his way out of things. Batman: Various Elseworlds I always felt Batman shined in the eleseworld. Unfortunately they aren't all collected in one giant volume (come on DC), but some gems are Batman: Red Rain (which has Kelly Jones art and features Batman vs Dracula), Citizen Wayne (where a young reporter tries to figure out whey Wayne and Dent fell to their deaths and why one was dressed as a bat), Castle of the Bat (where Herr Doktor Wayne tries to make his own Frankenstein's monster) and there are probably a few other stories that I can't recall straight away. Batman Cult Besides featuring some excellent Wrightson art, this is an awesome story about Batman going up against a charismatic cult leader. Did I say going up? I meant getting totally broken down and somewhat destroyed by a charismatic cult leader. For the first time in a long while Batman starts doubting if he is strong enough to do what he needs to do after being thoroughly broken in spirit. Why I love it? While I love reading stories about Batman the ubermensch, Cult shows Batman at his most vulnerable. Here we have Batman who has been broken down and controlled so thoroughly that he has to pretty much face his fears all over again just to win this battle. Can he do it? Batman: Going Sane Another Legends of the Dark Knight story, Dematteis spins a story about Joker thinking he has finally beaten and killed Batman. With what he views as his greatest victory, and his own reason for being, completed Joker snaps and literally goes sane. Succumbing to a kind of amnesia Joker starts a life as a regular guy, finds love and leads a normal life, completely unaware of his previous life as the Joker. Sadly the past cannot remain buried for long. Why I love it? As overplayed as he is, the Joker can still be a compelling character when done right, and Dematteis finds great pathos and sympathy for a monster villain like the Joker. It is really heartbreaking when you see the old Joker slowly come back to the front while he tries to fight it because for once in his life he is happy being a regular guy. Anyway, those are some other Batman comics worth checking out. If I think of more I will post them later.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 17:17
|
|
|
You've got drat good taste in Batman stories yo. I love Blades. I love most of those old Legends of the Dark Knight stories too - Gothic, Snow, Venom are all great stories. Most of them are collected individually too but a Best Of LoDK omnibus could be a cool thing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 17:37
|
|
|
The Batman: Black & White series are spectacular too. Even the pin-ups were great.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 17:41
|
|
|
Madkal posted:Batman: Various Elseworlds I always felt Batman shined in the eleseworld. Unfortunately they aren't all collected in one giant volume (come on DC), but some gems are Batman: Red Rain (which has Kelly Jones art and features Batman vs Dracula), Citizen Wayne (where a young reporter tries to figure out whey Wayne and Dent fell to their deaths and why one was dressed as a bat), Castle of the Bat (where Herr Doktor Wayne tries to make his own Frankenstein's monster) and there are probably a few other stories that I can't recall straight away. It's not one giant volume, but they are reprinting a whole bunch of Elseworlds, and the first Batman volume is out. The contents of volume one are largely ones I've heard decent enough things about : Amazon Page posted:Collects BATMAN: HOLY TERROR, BATMAN: THE BLUE, THE GREY, AND THE BAT, ROBIN 3000 #1-2, BATMAN/DARK JOKER: THE WILD, BATMAN/HOUDINI: THE DEVIL’S WORKSHOP, BATMAN: CASTLE OF THE BAT, BATMAN: IN DARKEST KNIGHT and BATMAN: DARK ALLEGIANCES Volume 2 is coming later this year, but looks to be just a reprint of the Batman - Vampire collection. Not that that's bad, but it's still easy enough to find. Volume 3 is sometime next year and its contents ones that I've heard of, but not about, namely Brotherhood of the Bat, Scar of the Bat, Dark Knight Dynasty, and Manbat.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 17:54
|
|
|
Madkal posted:If we are going to talk about some deep cuts for best Batman stories (ie not KJ, DKR, or Y1), these are my picks:
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 18:43
|
|
|
Roth posted:I mostly like it for how it was drawn in Cassandra's series Kurzon fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Aug 14, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 20:40
|
|
|
Kurzon posted:I also didn't like her having massive boobs. Ninja bitches should have small chests, like a gymnast. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 21:13
|
|
Are we just saying good Batman stories now, because   are very good Batmans.
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 21:55
|
|
|
With all this talk of Killing Joke, don't forget Alan Moore wrote a great Clayface story in another Batman annual. Yes, the poor bastard fell in love with a mannequin.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2016 22:12
|
|
|
In Darkest Knight has a perfect response to The Killing Joke.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 01:30
|
|
|
The perfect response to anything involving the Joker was that Max Landis story in Adventures of Superman.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 01:51
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:The perfect response to anything involving the Joker was that Max Landis story in Adventures of Superman. Sidebar, since it's not Batman, but the page of that where Joker's image cycles between all of his different incarnations over the years is fantastic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 01:58
|
|
|
Morrison Bats reading order: Batman and Son (new edition) Batman RIP (ignore the two 'Last Rites' issues in the back, they're part of Final Crisis and included in its trade) Final Crisis* (optional, read it anyways, new edition) Batman and Robin vol 1 Batman Reborn Batman and Robin vol 2 Batman vs. Robin Time and the Batman The Return of Bruce Wayne Batman and Robin vol 3 Batman & Robin Must Die! Batman Incorporated (deluxe) Batman Incorporated vol 1 Demon Star Batman Incorporated vol 2 Gotham's Most Wanted *Recommended background reading: JLA: Rock of Ages, JLA: Earth-2, JLA: Ultramarine Corps, Seven Soldiers This should probably be in the op somewhere because it's confusing and most recommended trade orders I see get it wrong or recommend irrelevant stuff like Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul. Toxxupation posted:Morrison's best Batman story, and indeed the best Batman story ever written is Batman R.I.P. It's very good but if we're going to break it down into favorite arc I like Return of Bruce Wayne the most, for the genre hopping, for how densely it's structured and for how great Return of Bruce Wayne #6 is. The reappropriaton of Bat symbolism from DKR/Year One in particular is brilliant, it's the antidote to the preceding 20+ years of grimbats. It's also a really nice thematic highlight of Morrison's overarching cosmic saga stretching from JLA to Seven Soldiers to Final Crisis and now Multiversity. I love it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 02:00
|
|
|
I genuinely don't like Return of Bruce Wayne because of how much of a convoluting confusing mess it is and I'd call it a straight-up bad story if ROBW 6 wasn't one of the best single issues of Batman ever written.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 02:05
|
|
|
Also Final Crisis is in absolutely no loving way "optional" for Morrison Batman.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 02:06
|
|
|
I always want to read the Morrison Bat-epic, as there are parts I haven't gotten to, but I was so bummed by that last issue. After years of "Batman is totally awesome and can do anything," it seems to end with "Batman is totally lame and kids' stuff." I wonder if he had the same ending planned before the New 52 happened and hosed everything up.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 02:20
|
|
|
Toxxupation posted:Also Final Crisis is in absolutely no loving way "optional" for Morrison Batman. I say optional because it's much more demanding than anything in Batman and people shouldn't just give up on the Morrison Batsaga if they find Final Crisis impenetrable. It's also optional in so far as Time and the Batman explicitly retells Batman's story in Final Crisis. That said, if you didn't understand Final Crisis you're likely going to have a hard time understanding Return of Bruce Wayne.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 02:22
|
|
|
Darth Nat posted:I always want to read the Morrison Bat-epic, as there are parts I haven't gotten to, but I was so bummed by that last issue. After years of "Batman is totally awesome and can do anything," it seems to end with "Batman is totally lame and kids' stuff." I wonder if he had the same ending planned before the New 52 happened and hosed everything up. What? Damian had to die because when parents fight, it's the children who suffer. There's a recurring theme about kids being forced to fight the adults war. And Kathy Kane killing Talia was the finality that Batman won't and can't give himself. By his nature, and the nature of comic books, they would have been at war forever. The end of Batman Inc was a downer, but it was honest. He gave us everything to build a better Batman. Maybe leaving things on a down note was supposed to inspire someone to build him back up again. Tomasi followed the swing back upwards while Snyder had the Joker cutting off faces.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 03:14
|
|
|
Darth Nat posted:I always want to read the Morrison Bat-epic, as there are parts I haven't gotten to, but I was so bummed by that last issue. After years of "Batman is totally awesome and can do anything," it seems to end with "Batman is totally lame and kids' stuff." I wonder if he had the same ending planned before the New 52 happened and hosed everything up. You should read Tomasi's Batman and Robin run. Again, there's an issue of it that ends up incredible emotional payoff to all of Morrison's Final Crisis on Batman stuff, and it's loving incredible. Legit makes me tear up. Equilibrium posted:I say optional because it's much more demanding than anything in Batman and people shouldn't just give up on the Morrison Batsaga if they find Final Crisis impenetrable. I'd argue it's not optional because basically everything Morrison writes in Batman post-Final Crisis is written in the context of what happened in Final Crisis, and even with Time and the Batman retelling FC from Batman's perspective and finally, finally clarifying what the gently caress Batman was doing during that event, it provides no outside context for FC so it still doesn't really make any sense if read without having read FC. It's basically a bunch of scenes that, honestly, should've been inserted into the pages of Final Crisis itself because it makes the story flow better and gives Batman a retroactive arc, but without having read FC is just that - a series of unrelated Batman scenes. Like if you don't read FC there's basically nothing of Morrison post-FC you can read outside the first two volumes of Batman and Robin, since it's all written with Final Crisis in mind. I've made clear my dislike for Final Crisis, and it boils down to what happens when I dislike Morrison - I find the story convoluted and communicated poorly, with Morrison dwelling on his own pet themes or ideas to the detriment of character moments or story comprehension, I just think it's especially bad with FC because it's basically a story split up into thirds - Final Crisis, Time and the Batman, and Return of Bruce Wayne - and there's no easy or convenient way to read any of it in a way that makes the story flow naturally. It's an especially awkward trilogy of stories, especially in direct contrast to Batman and Son/Black Glove/R.I.P., which is paced and communicated more-or-less perfectly (Clown at Midnight nonwithstanding).
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 03:27
|
|
|
I really, REALLY like The Batman of Arkham. It's a 'Gotham by Gaslight' era sort of elseworld, but it's one where instead of a rich, aloof millionaire or what have you, Bruce Wayne's 'day job' is the head of Arkham Asylum. And it's a book where he's actually going and trying to help these people who he's brought in, and does a better job than most stories at explaining why Batman doesn't kill. coughredhoodcough It's one of those good 'done in one' kinda stories, too. I've always had a soft spot for them.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 03:37
|
|
|
As much as I like Zero Year and Snyder's run overall, I still wish they would have waited for Morrison to finish his run on Batman before the big New 52 reboot. It would have made things a lot less convoluted overall if Batman got the same clean reboot that Superman did. It's pretty ridiculous that Batman has raised
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 04:55
|
|
|
What could DC have done to try and get around that awful Batman timeline without losing the timeframe they wanted to establish? You'd have to scrap Damian, Tim, and maybe even Jason. Now granted they scrapped Cass and Steph without a thought, but what could they have gained? Would we have to do Death in the Family and all that poo poo again?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 05:02
|
|
|
Did they never say Batman had been operating for ten years, the first five in the shadows? I guess Zero Year fucks that up, but that's what I'd heard. Not that it really helps much.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 05:13
|
|
|
Toxxupation posted:I'd argue it's not optional because basically everything Morrison writes in Batman post-Final Crisis is written in the context of what happened in Final Crisis, and even with Time and the Batman retelling FC from Batman's perspective and finally, finally clarifying what the gently caress Batman was doing during that event, it provides no outside context for FC so it still doesn't really make any sense if read without having read FC. It's basically a bunch of scenes that, honestly, should've been inserted into the pages of Final Crisis itself because it makes the story flow better and gives Batman a retroactive arc, but without having read FC is just that - a series of unrelated Batman scenes. You're overstating just how confusing this is when everything necessary can be inferred without having actually read Final Crisis. All you need to realize going into Batman and Robin is that Bruce is now missing and everyone thinks he's dead, so Dick takes up the mantle of Batman. Batman Reborn covers that. Later Dick and Damian find Bruce's belt which contains the Time and the Batman issues explaining exactly what happened to Bruce after his battle with Hurt. Bruce went on a cosmic JLA adventure during which he shot and mortally wounded the God of All Evil, who in turn cursed Bruce by sending him backwards through time via his Omega Sanction. Those issues are essentially excerpts from Final Crisis with annotations by GMo for everyone who either hadn't understood what Darkseid did to Bruce or who hadn't read Final Crisis in the first place. Anyways, I think Final Crisis is brilliant, but it's very much a sequel to Seven Soldiers, which is itself a sequel to JLA Classified and a bunch of the stuff Grant built on in JLA. Most people haven't read all that, which makes Final Crisis the most uncompromising and demanding story Grant has written for DC (and all the more funny that DC turned it into a stupid event with a bunch of meaningless tie-ins). It really doesn't give a poo poo about traditional narrative structures or filling in all the gaps for people, which is kind of the whole point. It is very much a gently caress you to all of the unimaginative continuity fetishists obsessed with plot over story. It's not so much one story split up into thirds, but one piece of a larger whole that encompasses everything from JLA to Multiversity. It is, on its own, a self-contained story about Superman saving the multiverse from cynicism. It's great, and Superman Beyond 3D is maybe my favorite thing Grant has ever written. That said, if you haven't read Seven Soldiers, or if you don't know what a New God is, it's probably going to be a rough read, but that's okay, you can get by without it and come back later. Look at all the people who picked up Batman Inc and never read Batman and Robin. Are they going to catch every reference or thematic callback? Nah, but it all works out. Equilibrium fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Aug 16, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 05:15
|
|
|
SonicRulez posted:What could DC have done to try and get around that awful Batman timeline without losing the timeframe they wanted to establish? You'd have to scrap Damian, Tim, and maybe even Jason. Now granted they scrapped Cass and Steph without a thought, but what could they have gained? Would we have to do Death in the Family and all that poo poo again? Isn't that the point of a reboot though? To start from scratch and move in a different direction? Really you don't even need to start with a robin at the start of a rebooted Batman comic. Just have a Batman and go from there.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 05:14
|
|
|
Maybe not feel constrained to bring them all in immediately or even at all? I loved Tim Drake, but they clearly haven't had any plans for him since Damien entered the picture. They could have followed the Action Comics/Superman route and had one line be pre-5 year time jump and the other one be the time jump. They could have introduced Dick through Detective Comics, and then in the first run of Batman have him graduate up to Nightwing. Batman never really got a clear reboot. There wasn't one between the golden and silver ages, and he didn't get one after CoIE like Superman did. Just retellings of his origins to update it for the eras. This is six years after the fact and I've caught up on most of Snyder's run and like what he did. So I don't have much room to complain these days. Edit: To clarify, Tim could be cleanly excised from New 52 with no loss. Getting rid of Jason Todd would end lots of derails for us. And Damien would be reintroduced in my proposed 5 years later time jump in DC's present day. Damien rules. Detective No. 27 fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Aug 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 05:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 01:53 |
|
|
goldenoreos posted:Isn't that the point of a reboot though? To start from scratch and move in a different direction? Really you don't even need to start with a robin at the start of a rebooted Batman comic. Just have a Batman and go from there. I mean yes and no. Batman was only around for like a year before they introduced Robin way back before any of us were born. The New 52 was already divisive. I can't imagine being an exec at DC and tossing out "Nightwing, the Teen Titans, Red Hood, and Batgirl also do not exist. We won't be writing any comics about them for a while." There's just no way that goes over well. You are right that the point of a reboot is to start over in some ways though. A Detective Comics/Batman split could've worked out. I'm not saying all Batman stories need to have Robin I just don't think they could've gotten away with cutting out very many of them. Even though I absolutely think all Batman stories that aren't his origin should have Robin. What the hell interesting stuff happens in Year Two?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2016 05:26
|
|