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Dzhay posted:In an attempt to steer this thread in a more productive direction. How do we go about "dragg[ing] conservative Muslim views [...] into the 21st century"? We don't rudatron posted:Tolerance is important, but there are real problems with getting immigrants to actually adapt, and no just stay in little enclaves. How you get that to occur smoothly is an important question, that you don't have the privilege of ignoring. Letting them remain unintegrated is not an option. If you're seriously going to compare that to nazism or fascism, then I'm sorry, you're not capable of talking about this subject intelligently. This naive fear of "unintegrated" immigrant communities is both ahistorical and deeply prejudiced. Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Aug 21, 2016 |
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Aug 21, 2016 16:36
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rudatron posted:Tolerance is important, but there are real problems with getting immigrants to This honestly seems to be your actual argument to me. You think it's a problem that minority cultures aren't "adapting" fast enough to act how you want them to, like western whites. And you seem to be implying that this causes political-motivated violence, or at least fear of political-motivated violence, either against the majority or minority populations and that this is the fault of the minority population for not conforming. So, please, tell me how this can't be compared to nazism or fascism other than that you don't want it to be?
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Aug 21, 2016 16:45
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Who What Now posted:This honestly seems to be your actual argument to me. You think it's a problem that minority cultures aren't "adapting" fast enough to act how you want them to, like western whites. And you seem to be implying that this causes political-motivated violence, or at least fear of political-motivated violence, either against the majority or minority populations and that this is the fault of the minority population for not conforming. So, please, tell me how this can't be compared to nazism or fascism other than that you don't want it to be? Without getting involved with the meat of your argument, I just want to complain about the use of "whites" in your post. Polish people tend to be as white and Catholic as you can get without being a statue on top of St. Peter's Basillica, but are one of the major victims (tho, truth be told, also sources) of immigrant outrage in Europe (not as much after the refugee crisis started, but UK fairly recently had a major gently caress-the-Poles stirup). Also, you know, you can get, like, 6'3'' pale blond blue-eyed Muslim dudes from the Balkans who can get shat on for being Muslim in a lot of European countries from just the anti-Muslim rhetoric, and then get layered on with the racist baggage of anti-Muslim rhetoric. Also, it's implying a degree of cultural cohesion among people with 'white' skin that doesn't really exist, even if you try to focus it on 'Western Whites'
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Aug 21, 2016 17:01
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rudatron posted:Letting them remain unintegrated is not an option. why?
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Aug 21, 2016 18:08
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my dad posted:Without getting involved with the meat of your argument, I just want to complain about the use of "whites" in your post. Polish people tend to be as white and Catholic as you can get without being a statue on top of St. Peter's Basillica, but are one of the major victims (tho, truth be told, also sources) of immigrant outrage in Europe (not as much after the refugee crisis started, but UK fairly recently had a major gently caress-the-Poles stirup). Also, you know, you can get, like, 6'3'' pale blond blue-eyed Muslim dudes from the Balkans who can get shat on for being Muslim in a lot of European countries from just the anti-Muslim rhetoric, and then get layered on with the racist baggage of anti-Muslim rhetoric. It's the American perspective on bigotry, where everything is skin colour racism. Protip: this is not the main way people poo poo on each other in the Old World.
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Aug 21, 2016 18:11
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:How can it be racism (as opposed to general authoritarianism or whatever) if French citizens get shat on for wrongthink instead of foreigners? Would it still be racism if foreigners can join the cultural identity without problems? Obviously, we Americans in the thread will see a lot of this through the perspective of whiteness and non-whiteness, but here's another history which informs my perception of these kinds of things: in the 20th century, many Americans in the 1950s instituted and staffed programs which removed the children of indigenous peoples from their homes and sent them to special schools, out of a stated desire to help. They wanted to reduce the problems which the children faced in joining the majority cultural identity! Of primary concern was the learning of English, which is a requirement of education in America, but was a noticeable struggle for children on reservations and nearby communities. So that's an extreme example: a program intended to help, just giving some kids a head-start on a universal educational-cultural hurdle and yet it arguably goes well past the point of "institutional racism" to "non-murderous genocide". Certainly, the elimination of the indigenous cultures in question was the expressed hope of many of the people who wanted to help these kids, since they blamed the culture for the children not being clean, responsible citizens. So, again, that's what I see as the advantage/purpose of these sorts of laws. quote:To be honest, a lot of this discussion has the tone of "Burka bans bad, racism also bad, therefore burka bans=racism" instead of laying out any other of the possible arguments against burka bans in addition to shouting about racism till everyone gets sick of it. If you're concerned about immigrants clustering into separated communities , then that's also an argument against such laws: even if they're normally never enforced on the streets, they might be in government buildings or official proceedings, so the existing citizens who tend to wear headgear will feel unwelcome in those places, avoiding courts, schools, community and service centers, councils, local party meetings...
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Aug 21, 2016 18:14
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blowfish posted:It's the American perspective on bigotry, where everything is skin colour racism. Protip: this is not the main way people poo poo on each other in the Old World. oh hey you still need to elaborate on the parallel societies in germany that are the failure of total multiculturalism.
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Aug 21, 2016 18:14
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You can see her eyes and parts of her cheeks, that's enough to give you a sense of her emotional state/what she's trying to convey beyond the words she's stringing together. There's also a decent chance she'd push the scarf down if she was talking to someone. Are you intent on demanding access to the emotional state of women? Should women skilled at concealing their emotional state be forcibly medicated until society can perceive their state of mind?
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Aug 21, 2016 18:20
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botany posted:elaborate We had Wanderarbeiter first from Southern Europe and then also Turkey, which were initially supposed to boost our rapidly-growing postwar economy by reducing the labour shortage. Next to no serious moves to integrate the new arrivals were made, they all concentrated in their own city quarters with minimal contact to German society, and eventually it turned out that many (especially Turks) were never going to leave. Given WW2 memories and eventually a feelgood post-Soviet social democrat/green government, Full Multiculturalism Now was declared and the policy of no integration beyond maybe German language courses continued with few substantial changes in the hope that everyone would be nice to each other while problems solved themselves. Unsurprisingly, this didn't actually work and quarters full of foreigners turned into run-down poor quarters full of crime and kids dropping out of school after wasting a few years punching some other ethnic group's kids in the face. The media even called them ghettos (  ) for a decade or so.Note: there are other groups of immigrants that were always going to be assimilated into full e: also note that Wanderarbeiter were largely supposed to do manual and often low or unskilled labour in construction and factories, so when automation happened and the postwar building boom to repair bombed-out cities and construct homes died down, everyone besides janitors was out of a job. The bulk of these guest workers wasn't highly-skilled professionals or academics that would have integrated well just by being on the job. suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Aug 21, 2016 |
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Aug 21, 2016 18:24
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botany posted:why? e: And not being integrated makes it very likely that you will have problems in your community, due to a lack of opportunities. SedanChair posted:Are you intent on demanding access to the emotional state of women? Should women skilled at concealing their emotional state be forcibly medicated until society can perceive their state of mind?
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Aug 21, 2016 18:26
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I included the communication part for a reason. Language is more than just what comes out of our mouths, and communication is pretty important when it comes to functioning in society. So that's a yes. Women who conceal their emotions can't be trusted eh? They must be forced to display them to you. Defending women's rights sure can get complicated, huh.
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Aug 21, 2016 18:38
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SedanChair posted:So that's a yes. Women who conceal their emotions can't be trusted eh? They must be forced to display them to you. Men in motorcycle helmets (when not riding/parking a motorcycle) also can't be trusted 
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Aug 21, 2016 18:41
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SedanChair posted:So that's a yes. Women who conceal their emotions can't be trusted eh? They must be forced to display them to you.
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Aug 21, 2016 18:53
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It has nothing to do with women in particular, they just happen to be the people who are expected to cover up their face in this case. You're the one who is expecting them to uncover it. So you can gaze at their emotions. But what if they can hide their emotions?
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Aug 21, 2016 19:06
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SedanChair posted:You're the one who is expecting them to uncover it. So you can gaze at their emotions. But what if they can hide their emotions? What if your posts are intentionally obtuse? Also people really can't hide their emotions that well, a sufficiently good poker face that stays on 24/7 is rare.
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Aug 21, 2016 19:23
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blowfish posted:What if your posts are intentionally obtuse? Islamic terrorism is also rare. How can you overlook the danger of women who can hide their emotions without even a veil?
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Aug 21, 2016 19:29
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SedanChair posted:Islamic terrorism is also rare. How can you overlook the danger of women who can hide their emotions without even a veil? beep boop society is not completely rational & efficient
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Aug 21, 2016 19:33
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blowfish posted:beep boop society is not completely rational & efficient Yeah one has to have priorities huh? Like burkinis.
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Aug 21, 2016 19:42
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SedanChair posted:Yeah one has to have priorities huh? Like burkinis. 
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Aug 21, 2016 19:43
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Because of fear of women, and hats.
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Aug 21, 2016 19:49
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blowfish posted:beep boop society is not completely rational & efficient So that makes it ok to force women to dress in certain ways, even against their wishes. Got it.
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Aug 21, 2016 20:19
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The Prussian and Bavarian identity is too strong and neither can truly be incorporated into true German-ness. The Klein Deutschland solution was clearly an imperialist grab by power hungry Prussians (who are really Polish) while the Bavarians are merely Austrian puppets. That's why modern Germany has failed to integrate and is constantly marked by sectarian violence.
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Aug 21, 2016 20:21
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blowfish posted:It's the American perspective on bigotry, where everything is skin colour racism. Protip: this is not the main way people poo poo on each other in the Old World. You being a shithead to other white people doesn't excuse your other racism.
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Aug 21, 2016 20:24
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Because not being integrated means the majority doesn't see you as an integral part of their society, and thus either doesn't give a gently caress about the problems in your community, or does, and wants to get rid of you because of them. We have to treat minorities like poo poo, otherwise they might not integrate and we'd treat them like poo poo!
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Aug 21, 2016 20:34
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computer parts posted:You being a shithead to other white people doesn't excuse your other racism. yeah but skin colour doesn't really enter the equation, european peoples hate each other for other stupid and petty reasons Who What Now posted:So that makes it ok to force women to dress in certain ways, even against their wishes. Got it. 
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Aug 21, 2016 20:38
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Schizotek posted:We have to treat minorities like poo poo, otherwise they might not integrate and we'd treat them like poo poo!
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Aug 21, 2016 20:45
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blowfish posted:yeah but skin colour doesn't really enter the equation, european peoples hate each other for other stupid and petty reasons Well, you know, except the gypsies whom almost everyone in Europe hates with a burning passion (and most of the rest "merely" don't want them around)
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Aug 21, 2016 20:47
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I'm not saying we should treat them like poo poo though. Not intentionally, anyway.
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Aug 21, 2016 20:50
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my dad posted:Well, you know, except the gypsies whom almost everyone in Europe hates with a burning passion (and most of the rest "merely" don't want them around) So what should the punishment be for women who refuse to bare their faces in an appropriate manner? Since you're on record as not giving a gently caress about people for doing it for nonterrorist reasons.
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Aug 21, 2016 20:53
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Who What Now posted:Not intentionally, anyway.
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Aug 21, 2016 20:55
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Schizotek posted:So what should the punishment be for women who refuse to bare their faces in an appropriate manner? Since you're on record as not giving a gently caress about people for doing it for nonterrorist reasons. I'm sorry, what?
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Aug 21, 2016 20:58
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my dad posted:I'm sorry, what? While he hasn't taken an official position on laws in this thread, he's spent most of his posts here that aren't mapquibbling defending the "gotta show your face cuz emotions and communications" smokescreen, and handwaving away nonmuslim facecoverings as not really counting. Maybe I'm reading too much into. But gently caress that bullshit argument anyway.
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Aug 21, 2016 21:02
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Schizotek posted:Maybe I'm reading too much into. burkini_discussion.txt
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Aug 21, 2016 21:04
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Schizotek posted:While he hasn't taken an official position on laws in this thread, he's spent most of his posts here that aren't mapquibbling defending the "gotta show your face cuz emotions and communications" smokescreen, and handwaving away nonmuslim facecoverings as not really counting. Maybe I'm reading too much into. But gently caress that bullshit argument anyway. You, uh, might have quoted the wrong person in your previous post, since I don't recall doing that. 
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Aug 21, 2016 21:17
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blowfish posted:yeah but skin colour doesn't really enter the equation, european peoples hate each other for other stupid and petty reasons So you're admitting Arabs are part of the European people?
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Aug 21, 2016 21:17
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my dad posted:You, uh, might have quoted the wrong person in your previous post, since I don't recall doing that. Oh poo poo I did.  e: It's BP that I'm ragging on not, you md. Schizotek fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Aug 21, 2016 |
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Aug 21, 2016 21:19
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It's treated as dogma now, so why exactly should a Western society accept immigrants who will not integrate? What's the argument in favor of it?
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Aug 21, 2016 21:32
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Mel Mudkiper posted:We don't I've noticed, perhaps we could change that. How can we?
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Aug 21, 2016 21:36
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the trump tutelage posted:It's treated as dogma now, so why exactly should a Western society accept immigrants who will not integrate? What's the argument in favor of it? That goes into the question of what integration actually is. For many Europeans, it seems to be "Have things exactly the way they were before the immigrants arrived", which is just silly to expect. Embrace the Kebab.
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Aug 21, 2016 21:44
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Dzhay posted:I've noticed, perhaps we could change that. How can we? It's not our responsibility nor should it be
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Aug 21, 2016 21:46
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