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azren
Feb 14, 2011


I've had an idea bouncing around in my head for a while to do a full 20 level adventure for 5e, adapting the original Final Fantasy for a tabletop game. I've got the bare ideas and a prologue dungeon, as well as having run a successful oneshot game covering Garland, and was hoping I could get feedback and suggestions (especially since I have very little experience with 5e).
This is not something I expect to be finished very soon, but I'm very interested in making it happen.

azren's mission statement posted:

About the campaign:
The classic NES Final Fantasy is, essentially, a video game translation of a Dungeons & Dragons adventure. As such, I decided to reverse-engineer Final Fantasy to a Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition campaign.
While it is ideal that the DM be familiar with one version of Final Fantasy or another, it isn't required. The players certainly have no need of experience with Final Fantasy. Those who are should take care not to make assumptions, as some portions of the game will be altered for various reasons.
In order to better match the feel of the game, there are some restrictions for characters. Some of these are optional, others are integral to the flow and design of the game.

Optional-
Ability scores: Standard point-buy is recommended, but not required.
The available classes are as follows:
Black Belt: Monk
Black Mage: Sorcerer, Wizard
Warrior: Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin (bonus points: not Eldritch Knight, Oath of Vengeance is strongly discouraged)
Red Mage: Bard
Thief: Rogue (bonus points- not Arcane Trickster)
White Mage: Cleric (bonus points: Life, Light, and Nature domains only)

The available races are as follows:
Human
Elf
Half Elf
Dwarf

Required-
Alignment: All characters must be some variety of Good. They are the Light Warriors, after all.

Party size: For story reasons, the party must consist of 4 characters. If the DM finds justification for a larger party, they should feel free to do so, but 4 is the minimum.

Magic restrictions: Any spells or items relating to flight, teleportation, or planar travel should be prohibited. Similarly, spells and items that allow traversal of very much water at all should be prohibited. However, Black Mage characters can, at the DM's discression, learn the Warp spell, which extracts the party from a dungeon. (5th level Conjuration, casting time 1 minute, Verbal and Somatic components, scroll buyable in Melmond)

Other concerns-
Class Recommendations: Parties without both a Rogue and a Cleric are likely to be at a severe disadvantage. The actual bottom line is that someone should be able to find/disarm traps, and someone should be able to heal.

The Class Change: TBD

Leveling: Level gain is tied to progression and sidequests, rather than experience; as the characters do more good, the Light Crystals become stronger, strengthening the characters they are bonded to. The difficulty of the main parts of the story will be balanced for those who have done at least some of the optional quests (Garland assumes that the PCs have reached level 3, and Chaos will be balanced for them being level 19 [Death Machine is the one most likely level not gained])

Level progression (items marked with a "-" are optional)

Start at lvl 1

get crystals

- Corneria sidequest

defeat Garland/save Sarah

defeat Bikke

- Elfheim sidequest

Retrieve Crown

Defeat Astos

save elven king

slay vampire

slay lich

-Crescent Lake sidequest (?)

Slay The Eye

Slay Kerrigan

-Citadel of Trials sidequest

Rescue Fairy

Slay Krakken

-Lufenia sidequest (?)

Slay Tiamat

-Destroy Death Machine

Obviously, the fiends will be significantly different from their MM counterparts (I'm not putting 11th level characters against a standard Lich, or anyone against the actual Tiamat), but several things seem to lineup pretty well with my planned level progression; characters will be level 5-7 when fighting the Mind Flayers in the Swamp Cave (Challenge 7), and ~ level 9 for fighting the Vampire (a difficult encounter at Challenge 13, certainly, but I expect it to be doable), for instance.

What are people's ideas on this? Any suggestions or constructive criticism for balancing/design/whatever would be welcome.

azren fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Aug 20, 2016

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Spiderfist Island
Feb 19, 2011
Since FF was originally cribbed from Squaresoft's in-house D&D games, I don't think it would be much of a stretch to adapt it back into the current edition of D&D. A few thoughts on the pitch:

For classes: I'm not too familiar with how 5E's classes are made, but I don't know if it's exactly critical to limit classes to similar ones in AD&D for thematic reasons (If you want to be a stickler, you can still limit them to similar ones found in FFIII (Japan) to keep the style of 8-bit Final Fantasy). What does "bonus points" mean in this case for those lists? Eldritch Knight seems like it would be perfect for how Red Mages work within FF1's mechanics. Paladin and Arcane Trickster all seem like builds which would work for representing the Knight and Ninja class upgrades.

Spells: A simpler way to limit spells would also be to create custom spell lists for each class that better matches the FF1 aesthetic. If you're going far enough to change how character progression works for the campaign, something to increase thematics would be to give each PC access to a short list of extra spells based around their elemental crystal. Whenever you'd light a crystal (defeated a Fiend), more spells would be unlocked for all PCs.

I would also get rid of the Class Change and do something else plot/mechanics-wise with the Citadel of Trials side quest. The FF1 Class Change acts like an version of Basic D&D's Fighter upgrade that's expanded to all classes. In Basic, a 9th-level Fighter could choose to either become a Knight (neutral), a Paladin (lawful) or an Avenger (chaotic) and could gain extra unique abilities like spell casting. FF1 took the concept and ported it over so that it affected all the classes within the limits of the FF1 game system.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the way that the "Adventure Day" in D&D and the way HP/Spell/Item resources in FF1 are handled are radically different, and so pacing and travel mechanics will be very different between the videogame and the adaptation.

FF1 is a pretty linear game in of itself, which may not play well with tabletop gaming expectations. The Crystal Lake / Lufenia side quests are also one of the few places in the game where the actual plot is expanded on, so making them optional may cause the story to become disjointed.

azren
Feb 14, 2011


Spiderfist Island posted:

Since FF was originally cribbed from Squaresoft's in-house D&D games, I don't think it would be much of a stretch to adapt it back into the current edition of D&D. A few thoughts on the pitch:

For classes: I'm not too familiar with how 5E's classes are made, but I don't know if it's exactly critical to limit classes to similar ones in AD&D for thematic reasons (If you want to be a stickler, you can still limit them to similar ones found in FFIII (Japan) to keep the style of 8-bit Final Fantasy). What does "bonus points" mean in this case for those lists? Eldritch Knight seems like it would be perfect for how Red Mages work within FF1's mechanics. Paladin and Arcane Trickster all seem like builds which would work for representing the Knight and Ninja class upgrades.

Spells: A simpler way to limit spells would also be to create custom spell lists for each class that better matches the FF1 aesthetic. If you're going far enough to change how character progression works for the campaign, something to increase thematics would be to give each PC access to a short list of extra spells based around their elemental crystal. Whenever you'd light a crystal (defeated a Fiend), more spells would be unlocked for all PCs.

I would also get rid of the Class Change and do something else plot/mechanics-wise with the Citadel of Trials side quest. The FF1 Class Change acts like an version of Basic D&D's Fighter upgrade that's expanded to all classes. In Basic, a 9th-level Fighter could choose to either become a Knight (neutral), a Paladin (lawful) or an Avenger (chaotic) and could gain extra unique abilities like spell casting. FF1 took the concept and ported it over so that it affected all the classes within the limits of the FF1 game system.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the way that the "Adventure Day" in D&D and the way HP/Spell/Item resources in FF1 are handled are radically different, and so pacing and travel mechanics will be very different between the videogame and the adaptation.

FF1 is a pretty linear game in of itself, which may not play well with tabletop gaming expectations. The Crystal Lake / Lufenia side quests are also one of the few places in the game where the actual plot is expanded on, so making them optional may cause the story to become disjointed.

"Bonus points" was a way of saying "it feels more 'right' to me that way." It was meant as more of a personal impression. I hadn't considered Eldritch Knight for Red Mage, and in modifying the spell lists, it would probably work quite nicely. Things that emulated the class change were things I was kinda trying to avoid, hence Arcane Trickster being one of the recommended exclusions.

I definitely like the idea of customizing the spell lists, especially with the elemental theme. The reasoning behind changing the character progression method is that I felt that a "normal" progression would stretch the game out too long/bog things down.

I'm definitely not doing a straight "Class Change" thing. I have toyed with the idea of granting a second archetype, but that gets messy. I feel like making it a special magic item for each character, especially if it's something that can grow with them, might be appropriate.

I've actually worked out a scale; for the oneshot I ran, I made an arbitrary decision that 2 days would be an appropriate amount of time for traveling between Corneria and the Temple of Fiends, so I worked out distance based on that. It will likely be modified at some point, and I have no clue how the boat and airship will mess with that, but it's a start.

The sidequests in various towns were going to be one of the things I would add in, that don't already exist in the regular game. I don't have specific ideas yet, but they're sprinkled around where it seemed appropriate to have them. The linearity is definitely something I am concerned about, because I definitely want to avoid severe railroading, but also to provide guidance sufficient for people to figure out where to go.

Dr. Doji Suave
Dec 31, 2004

We actually did this over Roll20 shortly after 5E came out! It was a lot of fun and the simplistic nature of the FF1 story line allowed us to have a lot of fun with it, even adding our own twists in some areas.

On top of scrubbing spell lists (i can get this list for you to look at when I find it), for the 'class change' I simply gave every character 2x more Max HD worth of HP instantly, and gave the melee classes a basic spell list that resembled their class change lists accordingly.

I also made some custom spells that mimic'd the games stat boosting spells, and sold them in towns. Using them did not cost a spell slot, but the caster had to roll a D6 and on a 1 the spell failed that turn. I locked them to combat only for obvious reasons, and the players were fine with it and understood why.

Creating monsters was probably the best part, because I was able to make them more balanced and add a lot of the 4E flavor to them to make them each unique with special passives and reactions they did in combat.

I will hunt my notes down on my laptop hard drive and see if I still have them.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received

Spiderfist Island posted:

FF1 is a pretty linear game in of itself, which may not play well with tabletop gaming expectations.

Only up to beating Lich, whereupon you can get the Canoe, which opens up Mt. Gulug, the Citadel of Trials, and the Ice Cave. The Ice Cave gives the airship which opens up Onrac and Gaia and Lufenia which between them give the Sunken Shrine and Flying Fortress. Eventually that all wraps up and the rest of the Chaos Shrine is opened.

The first part is linear in objectives but there's still side-trips one can make like visiting Matoya or the dwarves before it's mandatory for a few treasures and some plot threads.

azren
Feb 14, 2011


Dr. Doji Suave posted:

We actually did this over Roll20 shortly after 5E came out! It was a lot of fun and the simplistic nature of the FF1 story line allowed us to have a lot of fun with it, even adding our own twists in some areas.

On top of scrubbing spell lists (i can get this list for you to look at when I find it), for the 'class change' I simply gave every character 2x more Max HD worth of HP instantly, and gave the melee classes a basic spell list that resembled their class change lists accordingly.

I also made some custom spells that mimic'd the games stat boosting spells, and sold them in towns. Using them did not cost a spell slot, but the caster had to roll a D6 and on a 1 the spell failed that turn. I locked them to combat only for obvious reasons, and the players were fine with it and understood why.

Creating monsters was probably the best part, because I was able to make them more balanced and add a lot of the 4E flavor to them to make them each unique with special passives and reactions they did in combat.

I will hunt my notes down on my laptop hard drive and see if I still have them.

That would be awesome! Thanks!

That version of the class change feels like it favors the martial classes a bit too much, except for someone playing a monk, but I can definitely see that type of thing working.

Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

Only up to beating Lich, whereupon you can get the Canoe, which opens up Mt. Gulug, the Citadel of Trials, and the Ice Cave. The Ice Cave gives the airship which opens up Onrac and Gaia and Lufenia which between them give the Sunken Shrine and Flying Fortress. Eventually that all wraps up and the rest of the Chaos Shrine is opened.

The first part is linear in objectives but there's still side-trips one can make like visiting Matoya or the dwarves before it's mandatory for a few treasures and some plot threads.

I definitely have concerns regarding ways to give a modicum of direction (going after the wrong Fiend too early would be disasterous) without stifling player agency too much. Since I've got this whole "dreams from the Goddess" thing, that would be an obvious out, but it feels really cheap to do that ("Oh, here's something explicitly telling you where to go next! Ship off, guys!"). There might be something to be said for establishing the circle of elders in Crescent Lake as important guides more explicitly. Like if someone (Matoya, Elven king/prince, whatever) mentioned their existence, and their reputation as guides for heroes?

Dr. Doji Suave
Dec 31, 2004

While I hunt down this stuff (I need to get the hard drive, plug it in, and hope it is still on there) one thing I did was use the PSP FF1's tile sets to make my own maps for use during the game. This was easily done using the Tiled Map editor: http://www.mapeditor.org/

Most of the basic FF1 maps are pretty bland for obvious reasons, but I was able to spice them up with more treasure, some various monster/NPC interactions, etc. Honestly it was probably the hardest part of the whole ordeal since you are taking an established setting and trying to work in your own flavor of items to keep it more interesting than 'I swing, they swing back' non-stop.

As for Class Changes that was one of the main reasons I had given the extra HD and small lists to begin with. The level they received it (About 10 I think) the casters were already doing great on their own, it was only the melee who were struggling due to having to stand toe to toe with the monsters. It also helped in the final dungeon where almost every encounter was various dragons in between re-punching fiends.

azren
Feb 14, 2011


Dr. Doji Suave posted:

While I hunt down this stuff (I need to get the hard drive, plug it in, and hope it is still on there) one thing I did was use the PSP FF1's tile sets to make my own maps for use during the game. This was easily done using the Tiled Map editor: http://www.mapeditor.org/

You have likely just saved me so much pain! I'd already done maps for a couple dungeons by using my image editor's "snap to grid" function. It was... tedious.

Edit: my computer is giving me an alert about the installer.

azren fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Aug 21, 2016

Dr. Doji Suave
Dec 31, 2004

That's odd, last time I had to install it was probably 6-7 years ago. Maybe it's went and did the bullshit adware route? If so that's a pain :(.

Whybird
Aug 2, 2009

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Nap Ghost

azren posted:

I definitely have concerns regarding ways to give a modicum of direction (going after the wrong Fiend too early would be disasterous) without stifling player agency too much.

I would get around this by statting all the fiends at the same level, and then having them do stuff while the players take them out. So the first Fiend is easy to take down because they're caught off-guard, but the second has time to prepare, and then the third and fourth actually join forces against these guys going round wiping them out.

azren
Feb 14, 2011


Dr. Doji Suave posted:

That's odd, last time I had to install it was probably 6-7 years ago. Maybe it's went and did the bullshit adware route? If so that's a pain :(.

I don't know what the specific threat is that my computer thinks is there, and Webroot doesn't flag the site, so I don't know what's up. :shrug:

Whybird posted:

I would get around this by statting all the fiends at the same level, and then having them do stuff while the players take them out. So the first Fiend is easy to take down because they're caught off-guard, but the second has time to prepare, and then the third and fourth actually join forces against these guys going round wiping them out.

That makes sense. Might do that.

Dr. Doji Suave
Dec 31, 2004

So I have been looking for the hard drive that had the notes and I am unable to find it. :argh:

Sorry man! When I get some time I will look at the Roll20 game and see if I have some the monster stats in there.

azren
Feb 14, 2011


Dr. Doji Suave posted:

So I have been looking for the hard drive that had the notes and I am unable to find it. :argh:

Sorry man! When I get some time I will look at the Roll20 game and see if I have some the monster stats in there.

Crap. Thanks for looking. I appreciate the support.

Razorwired
Dec 7, 2008

It's about to start!
If you're married to 5e I would suggest stealing at least one thing from 13th Age. Give the Rogue the Thief's Strike ability. When the Rogue attacks they can declare that they're using Steal. They deal half damage and are allowed to steal a loose object from the target I don't know 5e well enough to dissect its expected dpr, but half damage or sacrificing the Sneak Attack die might also work.

Razorwired fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Sep 4, 2016

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

So its Mug.

But 5e is definetely not the rpg to make everyone feel as important as the other.
Nor are ff1 combat mechanics. The non magic characters all had rote -attack each round- duties barring the thief who could run away. Before promotion, anyways.

Were this another ed (if it were 4e you could straight up rip off FFT) youd have ample splatbooks to poach abilities and fun, campaign fitting things from. But 5e has so little support relative to how old it is that the propet math is super obfuscated.

Imo:
Give the monk more extra attacks, warrior gets bigger die and (ff-style) cover, thief gets mug and ranger utility spells as abilities, thematic things that make sense.


Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Sep 4, 2016

Hwurmp
May 20, 2005

Razorwired posted:

I don't know 5e well enough to dissect its expected dpr, but half damage or sacrificing the Sneak Attack die might also work.

Rogues are already poo poo, don't nerf them.

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azren
Feb 14, 2011


Really Pants posted:

Rogues are already poo poo, don't nerf them.

How so? I don't remember feeling like they were, and when I playtested the Garland encounter, the rogue was one of the most useful characters.

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