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Baronjutter posted:You D&D dorks and your little echo-chambers of ideological purity, must be so boring not making close friends with people that just happen to have cool different ideas on racial purity. Like who cares if a person thinks Saudi Arabia has the right idea on solving the gay problem, what matters is if they are fun to hang around. It also doesn't matter how someone treats other people, only how they treat you. They don't want you personally to be killed or locked up or forced to live on the street so what's the big deal? Do you know someone who's a eugenicist? Do you know a white supremacist? Do you know someone who thinks people who are gay should be killed? These are not real concerns you have to address. Chances are, if you know and like someone, your politics can mesh okay. Don't close yourself off to others because you don't agree with them on everything. Should you be friends with someone who, I donno, really thinks we should be torturing prisoners to death? No! But hey, you probably don't know someone like that. This is prime-grade navel gazing sparked by a facebook post. It's inane.
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Sep 14, 2016 01:47
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Grondoth posted:Do you know someone who's a eugenicist? Do you know a white supremacist? Do you know someone who thinks people who are gay should be killed? If you seriously don't know someone who is a white supremacist or wants to torture prisoners then I don't know what to tell you, I'm an asocial goon and I know at least 4 people who are one or both.
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Sep 14, 2016 02:01
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If at least one of your friends doesn't have a Stars n' Bars tattoo you don't have enough friends. Also I don't care about anyone's politics but if you are on the wrong side of the Ford/Chevy debate I will not associate with you and incorrect NASCAR opinions are a perfectly valid reason for a fist fight.
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Sep 14, 2016 02:11
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Brainiac Five posted:I can definitely see someone not knowing what carcinogenic meant. It's a word you probably have to pick up from context unless you're exposed to medical terminology or read a lot, neither of which are true for most Americans of any stripe. Just how dumb are Americans? I can think of maybe one or two people I know who might not know that word, and one of them is legit mentally handicapped. More on subject, I've never had a problem dealing with people with different political views than mine. I'm more left-wing than a lot of people I know because I live in a fairly conservative city, but on the other hand I'm not close to being a "leftist" in any sense, so I get in quite a few arguments whenever I discuss politics. For the most part, it's no big deal. I've had shouting matches over it with people I consider friends, but part of the deal with friendship is that you can occasionally do that and not ruin your friendship -- you end up phoning the next day or whatever, and it's water under the bridge. I'd consider white supremacy or real homophobia/transphobia (I don't mean saying "fag" or something -- although I'd tell someone off for that, usually -- I mean actually thinking gay or trans people should be denied legal rights or worse) to be dealbreakers. That's not so much a "political opinion" as it is overt hatred, and that's very much not okay. For example: "I think we may be letting in too many refugees," is a political opinion. It's one I disagree with, but it's still a political opinion. "I think the Moooslims are all coming to kill us and they're inherently evil, we need to ban them," is just irrational hatred, and I don't see how I could be friends with someone who held that belief.
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Sep 14, 2016 02:37
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PT6A posted:Just how dumb are Americans? 42% of us think the Earth is less then 10,000 years old despite literally every branch of science saying otherwise, so... yeah, pretty loving dumb.
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Sep 14, 2016 02:47
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Grondoth posted:Do you know someone who's a eugenicist? Do you know a white supremacist? Do you know someone who thinks people who are gay should be killed? There's definitely still a good 15-25℅ of the population who thinks gays should be arrested and jailed or killed. The upside is that they're old as poo poo and generally have little influence outside of GOP politics.
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Sep 14, 2016 03:15
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I suppose it depends on what you mean by "friendly relationships"? I have professional relationships with people who hold really awful political views. My mask occasionally drops, so they generally know my position as well. Though it can be hard when you are outranked by some of them and outnumbered. But I need to eat and that is something I am (literally) willing to sell ideological purity for. When it comes to closer friends, I do find it often incompatible because why would I want to associate with people I find fundamentally vile? Like, I don't want racism, xenophobia, sexism, etc in my life. While sometimes people cross the line and you have to be confrontational, generally you can just self-segregate and avoid them moving forward. Right now, in terms of close friends, I'd say I have two Republican friends. One is voting Johnson this election and is Republican because he very much buys into the whole "American Dream" a house, a car, a garage with two cars and 2.5 kids thing. That is what he wants in life. He feels "being Republican" is part of that. He's got an ironic detachment to it though. He is both serious and joking when he says that a friend of his is his political mentor. This friend is mentally disabled because he's had multiple solid brain tumors removed (so complete with ticks, speech impediments, etc) and got kicked out of college because he got heavily involved in the White Power Movement. This friend of my friend is a Jew and when his "White Power" friends found out that he was trying to get the ADL to argue to get him reinstated they beat him senseless. That's, supposedly, where he got his glass eye. If you ask me, the whole "brain tumor" thing is a cover story for the after-effects of the beating. If my friend wants to be a Republican because of cargo cult and because it makes his retarded friend feel less alone, I can't argue with compassion. Another Republican friend is a small town queen bee. She's fought and won great victories and gets to lord them over other people. It is perhaps not the best expression of humanity but I can understand it. Her success is proof that her god loves her most especially and she can leverage her small town's church not make sure that everybody recognizes this. Narcissistic as gently caress and not something I could or would want to maintain but, like, I totally get how that would be fun and hanging out with her is a blast because of it. It's like literally and metaphorically a coke binge when we hang out. I've got some Lolbertarian friends as well. They are mostly salt-of-the-earth folks who happen to be black men in (conservative) white spaces. It's like a prison sex thing where it really isn't what they want (I mean, despite their talk, they are very much all shy democrats and vote straight D in both general and midterm elections) but if they do something different it could be bad, maybe even dangerous for them.
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Sep 14, 2016 03:30
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Shbobdb posted:I've got some Lolbertarian friends as well. They are mostly salt-of-the-earth folks who happen to be black men in (conservative) white spaces. It's like a prison sex thing where it really isn't what they want (I mean, despite their talk, they are very much all shy democrats and vote straight D in both general and midterm elections) but if they do something different it could be bad, maybe even dangerous for them. Would you consider black men who think the black on black homicide rate is a much bigger issue than white racist cops and white racism in general to be "conservative" or "lolbertarian" for having such a view? If not, how would you explain such an opinion being held by a non-negligible number of black democrats when an identical view expressed by a white person would almost certainly be considered racist?
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Sep 14, 2016 04:15
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Secular Humanist posted:Would you consider black men who think the black on black homicide rate is a much bigger issue than white racist cops and white racism in general to be "conservative" or "lolbertarian" for having such a view? If not, how would you explain such an opinion being held by a non-negligible number of black democrats when an identical view expressed by a white person would almost certainly be considered racist? I don't know any, so ???? Black folks in white spaces have different views from black folks in black spaces. My black friends in black spaces are concerned about "ignorant people" who commit black-on-black violence. As a white dude who hangs out in black spaces, it's really not that hard to separate the resolution on those two problems. Treating them as the same thing seems weirdly dumb. Like, I can't speak for black people but aside from "black people are dying" why are they similar? If we were to wave a magic wand and fix black on black violence should the narrative change to, "why should we care about police on black violence when diabetes kills more black people than cops?" or "why should we care about police on black violence when the black community is chronically under-served for dialysis needs?"
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Sep 14, 2016 04:31
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what do you do if your boss is pretty liberal like yourself but also thinks breatharianism is a good idea 'in theory' and then also thinks unrestricted drone warfare and the assassination of american citizens is cool and good asking for a friend
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Sep 14, 2016 05:05
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Admiral Bosch posted:what do you do if your boss is pretty liberal like yourself but also thinks breatharianism is a good idea 'in theory' and then also thinks unrestricted drone warfare and the assassination of american citizens is cool and good Smile and do whatever your boss tells you to do since there is no way to win. You can test the waters to see if he's cool. Sometimes they are. Often they aren't. If they aren't, they will probably gently caress with you in not cool ways. It's a lose-lose situation.
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Sep 14, 2016 05:20
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Admiral Bosch posted:what do you do if your boss is pretty liberal like yourself but also thinks breatharianism is a good idea 'in theory' and then also thinks unrestricted drone warfare and the assassination of american citizens is cool and good
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Sep 14, 2016 05:37
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It's so much easier to agreeably debate fiscal issues than Social or human rights issues. Really when you boil things down fiscal issues are human rights issues, but the degree of abstraction is humanizing, ironically. I just can't bring myself to debate issues of tolerance with people I don't have to stay close with. It's exhausting enough dealing with your own family and analyzing your own behavior for any latent bigotry, if I have the option of withdrawing I'm going to.
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Sep 14, 2016 05:42
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Grondoth posted:These are not real concerns you have to address. Chances are, if you know and like someone, your politics can mesh okay. Don't close yourself off to others because you don't agree with them on everything. Should you be friends with someone who, I donno, really thinks we should be torturing prisoners to death? No! But hey, you probably don't know someone like that. Really? Because that is a position that Donald Trump has gone on the record as supporting, so all his supporters agree with it or at least don't think it's a big deal.
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Sep 14, 2016 06:12
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Grondoth posted:Do you know someone who's a eugenicist? Do you know a white supremacist? Do you know someone who thinks people who are gay should be killed? I don't, normal people don't, but it seems a lot of americans, specially living in lovely regions, have resigned that those things are just like different opinions man and just don't bring up the subject and talk about sports or video games instead. I think in a lot of the way goons in E/N post these horrific friendships or relationships as seemingly normal, some people just think they can't do better.
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Sep 14, 2016 07:14
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Don't be so quick to judge people who vote for white nationalist ideologues you guys, what if they privately disagree with white nationalism while they're voting for it wouldn't you feel silly then.
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Sep 14, 2016 08:01
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^^^ What if they're voting for white nationalists because of their disadvantaged upbringing in an environment that did not foster cross-cultural understanding? I have some Russian friends, relatives, and colleagues who are likely to think that the annexation of Crimea was a legit democratic decision and that the DNR and their buddies are cool and good freedom fighters, and it wasn't really an actual country in the first place anyway. I can maintain pretty decent relationships with most of them but not bringing up or engaging in any discussions on the subject. Really, you have to set a line somewhere in order to maintain some sort of social life, otherwise you'd find that there's nobody you can be friends with. Also while a neo-nazi is unlikely to have Jews or black people as friends, you'd have a better chance of affecting someone's opinion by not just telling them to gently caress off.
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Sep 14, 2016 10:41
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Part of being an adult is learning to deal with people of other political persuasions and other opinions in general.
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Sep 14, 2016 10:50
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Panzeh posted:Part of being an adult is learning to deal with people of other political persuasions and other opinions in general. Yes and there are multiple ways to do that, including quietly murdering them and disposing of their body in a quarry lake.
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Sep 14, 2016 11:02
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mobby_6kl posted:. Also while a neo-nazi is unlikely to have Jews or black people as friends, you'd have a better chance of affecting someone's opinion by not just telling them to gently caress off. This. The stepfather with quietly embarrassing opinions about black people is much more likely to have a change of heart caused by stepson marrying a lovely black woman than by the finger-wagging lectures delivered by a wannabe Marcus Garvey. Less opportunity for virtuous posturing this way, but greater chance actually to effect change.
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Sep 14, 2016 11:58
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But a father-son relationship is kind of unavoidable, and has a lot of emotional attachment to it. A friendship is less likely to actually have some kind of effect. And the people who, in western countries in the year 2016, legit buy into prejudice, are not exactly amenable to rationality. That, and even if you're in their 'acceptable' in-group (as Ytlaya suggested), they're still going to have big problems empathizing with others (they wouldn't believe what they do if it were otherwise). You can't fix that. Like I said, they're fundamentally anti-social.
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Sep 14, 2016 12:19
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Panzeh posted:Part of being an adult is learning to deal with people of other political persuasions and other opinions in general.
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Sep 14, 2016 12:36
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The Real Foogla posted:sure, not being their friend is cool and good, depending on said persuasion Yeah you all remember the OP says "friendly relationships" not "cordial relationships" right? I am cordial to appalling motherfuckers every single day, and they probably would even see it as friendly. But I'm not going to feel friendly unless they've met certain standards of decency.
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Sep 14, 2016 15:40
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VitalSigns posted:Don't be so quick to judge people who vote for white nationalist ideologues you guys, what if they privately disagree with white nationalism while they're voting for it wouldn't you feel silly then. Funnily enough, I don't remember these kinds of sentiments being directed against people who supported Ron "Repeal the Civil Rights Act" Paul because he said he'd end wars and legalize weed. And those folks made a lot of the same arguments you hear from Trump supporters, like "Oh, he's just being Ron Paul, he isn't actually going to repeal the Civil Rights Act" and "no matter how racist he sounds, Congress isn't going to let him roll back civil rights, so forget about that AND VOTE FOR LEGAL WEED HELL YEAH". 
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Sep 14, 2016 15:47
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woke wedding drone posted:Yeah you all remember the OP says "friendly relationships" not "cordial relationships" right? I am cordial to appalling motherfuckers every single day, and they probably would even see it as friendly. But I'm not going to feel friendly unless they've met certain standards of decency. Sounds like you need to start hanging around different people every day.
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Sep 14, 2016 15:49
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I have a job though.
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Sep 14, 2016 16:04
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TheImmigrant posted:This. The stepfather with quietly embarrassing opinions about black people is much more likely to have a change of heart caused by stepson marrying a lovely black woman than by the finger-wagging lectures delivered by a wannabe Marcus Garvey. Less opportunity for virtuous posturing this way, but greater chance actually to effect change. Actually, I think what Maine Paineframe stated earlier would perfectly apply here. Most likely the stepfather would simply rationalize it as "she's one of the good ones". But on the whole, I don't think you should enter friendships to change people's political opinions because you are largely doomed to failure. But from my experience, the people that want to change how they view the world, will ask for help when the time comes. Trying to force the issue will likely end in failure, but that is only on a micro level.
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Sep 14, 2016 16:05
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woke wedding drone posted:I have a job though. get out of the service industry.
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Sep 14, 2016 17:19
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mobby_6kl posted:^^^ This is my cousin! Everything in Crimea and Ukraine and the world in general is actually jews, and only white people have creativity and individual sentience, asians are hard working and organized but it's because they lack any sort of individuality and are absolutely incapable of creative thought, only memorization. Jews don't like this and want white people corrupted by inter-breeding and addiction to CHEMICALS (look up big pharma, it's jews) But she is perfectly fun to hang out with at family events!
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Sep 14, 2016 17:31
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Its easy if you never bring it up. Most people dont really talk a lot about politics or care deeply about it so its easy to be friends. I bet everyone alive are friends with people with ideals they find personally repulsive. But they never find this out because the subject just never comes up You could also just deflect and pretend to agree. Having friends is useful so it can be worthwile to do this. But ofcourse it all depens on what you find personally comfortable. Its not reasonable to expect someone to remain friends with someone they perceive as fundamentally hostile to their interests. Personally i will drop friends if they refuse to stop talking about something i dont agree with and there is no way to make them shut up. A friend of mine became pretty radically vegan and a hardcore advocate for "natural remedies". Every conversation had to be about montesanto, vaccines causing autism, weed cures cancer, how fat people should be put in camps and forced to live healthy etc. Hanging out was no longer fun. I gradually dropped him as a friend. Friendships becoming tedious chores means it is time to sever. He grew some drat good weed and we indulgded in it often. But even free drugs could not make up for listening to his bullshit forever. I dont see myself as responsible for other peoples actions when we arent hanging out with me, so you can have has many dumb opinions as you want. Just dont go on and on about it . At the end of the day there arent that many issues i really feel deeply about so i`ll humor the delusions of just about anyone. Up to a point.
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Sep 14, 2016 18:12
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I attempt to take a Rogerian approach and find the common ground with people. However, sometimes this isn't possible because either they are too rigid or I am, or it's just an issue that is so specific that meeting in the middle doesn't work. If I'm not selecting a book or joining a particular group/forum/agency the chances are that I'm not going to agree 100% politically, or even in the 60%+ range. This doesn't mean I can't find things I do agree with another person on.
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Sep 14, 2016 18:19
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My best bro and I are utter political opposites. Just last night he repeated some old-rear end, discredited, hardcore bigotry to me and made me just about as mad as I've ever gotten arguing with him. It was the old false narrative that most pedophiles are gay. I really took a fuckin' piece out of him, probably more than what was warranted because I felt personally slighted (not gay myself but not completely straight either). We still managed to both calm down, fix and eat some dinner, and do friendly nerd stuff afterwards. What makes it work is that as small-minded, selfish, and bigotted as I feel he can be, and as misinformed/naive/delusional as he feels I can be, we both aknowledge that the other doeasn't go out of their way to gently caress with people. He can hang around THE GAYS or BLACKS or w/e and not pitch a hissy fit or fight with people, and I can hang around dumbshit bigots without getting my panties in a twist (normally). If you treat others that you meet with a modicum of respect and empathy, a lot of lovely rhetoric becomes forgivable imo. Hell, the dude joined in on a charity thing me and some friends used to do at the hardest core gay club in town and even crossdressed to be our chili queen one year as skanky, nasty man-Alice to raise money for hiv patients. As I see it, the characterstic that most defines whether you can be friends with someone is being able to trust them. A friend who has your back when you need it, and who doesn't gently caress you over, is usually a friend worth keeping. I'll take a LOT of poo poo opinions if I can trust someone. Being emotionally invested in your politics is good, much better than talking the talk without walking the walk. But consider this: if you refuse to talk to people aboit your disagreements, ultimately the other option is physical violence. With a single friend sure, you can just disconnect. But that's kicking the can down the road in its own way. If you categorically deny that people are capable of dealing with their differences on a friendly or mostly dispassionate level, that has seriously bad implications for the future of the human race. Sure, if someone is already at the level of violence, like they are gassing jews or something, it's hopeless. But most people with terrible opinions don't go out of their way to be dicks about those opinions. A black person could easily be friends with a slightly racist but nonlynching white person, and in fact that kind of relationship is the pathway to a better future because it allows various kinds of people to interact with one another and hopefully lose preconceptions and prejudice. As for my friend and I, we argue a lot, but with very few exceptions we do so good-naturedly, without getting really pissed off and without impugning the other's character. A lot of people actually enjoy low-stakes arguing, myself included. Setting myself up to come in contact with differing and opposing viewpoints is a type of diversity, which I truly believe equates with strength. It's sure a hell of a lot better than locking myself inside an echo chamber. No one is perfect and we all wrong others occasionally. I'll take my friend's imperfection as long as he doesn't treat anyone like poo poo on purpose. The trust we have engendered for one another and our similarities outweigh our differences. One could hope that the same will ultimately be true of all the world's different kinds of people. Ps. He even cited the gay manifesto as if it weren't satire and pathos. Jesus loving christ. Edit: Holy poo poo. Deepest apologies for how wordy that ended up being. I was attempting something a little more concise. Nathilus fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Sep 14, 2016 |
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Sep 14, 2016 18:42
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i may not like trump supporters but my bourgeois sentimentality dictates that I defend to the death their right to demand bloody pogroms
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Sep 15, 2016 04:15
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My best friend is conservative and a libertarian. Occasionally we'll have conversations or arguments about politics, but I just can't do it with him this time around with the Trump/Hillary thing. It stresses us both the gently caress out. I think of him as a smart person, but he also holds some racist ideas which was news to me when I heard it. His evidence was basically that the incidence of black people getting arrested and committing crimes is high, therefor they're racially more predisposed to be criminals. I told him correlation is not causation. He didn't buy it. Earlier than this when gay people were able to marry he really hated the idea. His quibble was over the term marriage and not actually getting married which I found weird, but some months later he didn't care. If someone wants to get married that's just fine by him. This personally gives me hope about his attitude towards race. I'll be patient and see what happens while challenging his ideas when they pop up. Also as a Southerner he totally buys into the idea that the civil war was over freedom and states rights. I really can't penetrate this and he has an extreme aversion to having this be challenged. I asked him if he'd care to read a few of the declarations of independence from Mississippi for example which mentions the term slavery dozens of times and he just wasn't having it. It's in the DNA down here. Heritage not hate sort of poo poo. If you don't know anything about the civil war you assume it's about slavery. If you learn more you begin to think it's about freedom, independence and state's rights. Then when you learn even more it's about slavery again and the previous stuff was mostly if not completely bullshit. It's easier to believe pretty lies than swallow the ugly truth that the South was an economy built on chattel slavery. I have training as a political scientist. I have to say that this is nothing out of the ordinary for me. I have problems with left leaning people too. A friend of mine on the opposite end is very much a hippie woo mom who is into essential oils and gender neutrality for her children. So when she talks about how the dress code preferences women to wear men's clothing but not men to wear women's clothing I imagine that the first time he tries that in rural Tennessee where they live that her son is going to get called a human being and get beat up because middle school is a nightmare even if you're trying to fit in. Is that right? No. Is it expected? Probably. If you live in a conservative substrate or really any specific kind of culture only the strongest of swimmers can go against the mainstream. Also middle school boys are assholes. I don't really subscribe to any political ideology. I only care about what works and how you got there. End of story. I only care about the data in the end. Ideologies are great for branding and motivating people, but a single ideology has never been the one answer for everything. Ideologies are flawed because people are flawed. Life is too complicated to reduce everything down to a number of core values and talking points. Really I'm just numb to politics. It's one of the few disciplines in life that everyone thinks they know better than you because politics is like a national sport up there with football, basketball, baseball, etc. They actually might know more than you in certain specific ways, but most of the time their head has been filled with nonsense by people trying to push an agenda and then they attempt to spread pants on head bad ideas to me like a virus. It's hard to discriminate between good and bad data if you're untrained. It's hard for me almost all of the time until I really drill down on something, but it's hard to deal with someone when they're so loving smug as if I'm some clueless idiot and they're so ignorant that they don't know they're ignorant. These people aren't the norm though thankfully. I think where I draw the line is hate, but sometimes not even then. I have a buddy who's an Iraq war veteran. He despises Muslims, but almost every single interaction he's had with them has either been neutral at best or nightmare fuel at worst. So we don't talk about Muslims. I'm not going to change his mind because my egalitarian ideals break down in the face of the stories of him telling me about stories of older brothers pimping out their younger pre-teen siblings. I've never been to Iraq nor a war. I've never killed someone in anger. He has. I don't know what to say. His life is just so different than mine. So we just don't talk about Muslims. He's fine with that. I am too. We've had one conversation about it. That's all we needed. And in the end I value his perspective because as I get older I realize that egalitarianism is great right up until the point where it breaks down. I'd love for life to be fair and everyone to be treated with respect and courtesy, but life isn't fair and there's very little interest by anyone in actually making it that way. His life was all blood, poo poo, fire and boredom for a decade in the marines. I value his perspective even if I think it's flawed because he helps me realize the flaws in my own thinking too. In the end I just try to limit ignorance and hatred in my life. I can't do it perfectly, but I can get rid of the worst offenders. If I got rid of everyone who ever had a different opinion from my life it'd be pretty lonely and honestly I like it when people challenge my ideas. Ideas are meant to be challenged. They're meant to fight it out. I pick and choose my friends, but no one is perfect. The people above? Stand up people and I love them, but gently caress if they're not ignorant and wrongheaded sometimes. But I'm ignorant sometimes too. No one is perfect. So have I cut contact with people for their political ideals? Well I haven't really made friends with neo-nazis or KKK members. I haven't made friends with people whose cultural identity is hatred and ignorance. Not even my extended family has that racist uncle or whatever that you loathe to talk to even once a year at Thanksgiving. The answer is no, but I reserve the right to. I just won't ditch a friend if they have what I consider to be bad opinions. I would ditch one if they had hateful and ignorant opinions, but that wouldn't exactly be political. I'd just be flushing some jerk out of my life. Life is nuanced. People don't exist to confirm my biases. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 11:22 on Sep 15, 2016 |
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Sep 15, 2016 11:13
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Not only is this man above my post, he's simply above it all 
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Sep 16, 2016 15:18
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Ice Phisherman posted:His evidence was basically that the incidence of black people getting arrested and committing crimes is high, therefor they're racially more predisposed to be criminals. I told him correlation is not causation. He didn't buy it. See, this is why having friends of opposing political views is such an alien concept to progressives. Anyone who disagrees can only ever be a racist or a sexist. Of course black people aren't "racially" more predisposed to crime, but in America there is a strong cultural tendency in many poor black communities to glamorize crime and to not cooperate with police under any circumstances. It's a problem unique to black American culture that can only be solved from within black American culture. The fact that pointing this out, and that black on black violence at large is becoming a "right wing" topic is really depressing to me. Especially when it's a black person trying to have the conversation, and they get written off as some kind of race traitor for their dissent. It sucks, and it just provides a trojan horse for right wing nutjobs to smuggle actual racism into the conversation under the guise of "having the tough conversation that liberals are afraid to have".
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Sep 18, 2016 18:07
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If you're in a position where someone's politics could be actively harmful to you, then you don't want to be friends with them. It's nice that Jim likes to play poker, but he also thinks I don't deserve visitation rights to visit my husband in the hospital. I'd rather play poker with someone who doesn't think I should be made to sit in the waiting room while my husband dies.
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Sep 18, 2016 18:38
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Secular Humanist posted:See, this is why having friends of opposing political views is such an alien concept to progressives. Anyone who disagrees can only ever be a racist or a sexist. Of course black people aren't "racially" more predisposed to crime, but in America there is a strong cultural tendency in many poor black communities to glamorize crime and to not cooperate with police under any circumstances. It's a problem unique to black American culture that can only be solved from within black American culture. The fact that pointing this out, and that black on black violence at large is becoming a "right wing" topic is really depressing to me. Especially when it's a black person trying to have the conversation, and they get written off as some kind of race traitor for their dissent. It sucks, and it just provides a trojan horse for right wing nutjobs to smuggle actual racism into the conversation under the guise of "having the tough conversation that liberals are afraid to have".
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Sep 18, 2016 18:49
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Secular Humanist posted:See, this is why having friends of opposing political views is such an alien concept to progressives. Anyone who disagrees can only ever be a racist or a sexist. Of course black people aren't "racially" more predisposed to crime, but in America there is a strong cultural tendency in many poor black communities to glamorize crime and to not cooperate with police under any circumstances. It's a problem unique to black American culture that can only be solved from within black American culture. The fact that pointing this out, and that black on black violence at large is becoming a "right wing" topic is really depressing to me. Especially when it's a black person trying to have the conversation, and they get written off as some kind of race traitor for their dissent. It sucks, and it just provides a trojan horse for right wing nutjobs to smuggle actual racism into the conversation under the guise of "having the tough conversation that liberals are afraid to have". I think it's because the messaging is simple. "Black people are criminals because they're racially predisposed to crime" sounds stupid, but it's simple. You can boil it down to a sentence and really drill it into someone's head by repeating it over and over. Repetition is an education tool. When I tried explaining to him that there's a confluence of poverty, low education, low opportunity, the history of slavery, Jim Crow and racial discrimination he wasn't having it. I was asking him to understand six distinct and nuanced concepts that one can go on for hours about. Doesn't matter. It's hard to dislodge that original idea because it was there first (primacy) and because it's hard to disprove without going into something like the history of eugenics. He gets these ideas from right wing media. Specifically right wing radio. It's vile, hate filled poo poo, but their messaging and marketing for that message is on point.
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Sep 18, 2016 19:10
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Secular Humanist posted:See, this is why having friends of opposing political views is such an alien concept to progressives. Anyone who disagrees can only ever be a racist or a sexist. Of course black people aren't "racially" more predisposed to crime, but in America there is a strong cultural tendency in many poor black communities to glamorize crime and to not cooperate with police under any circumstances. It's a problem unique to black American culture that can only be solved from within black American culture. The fact that pointing this out, and that black on black violence at large is becoming a "right wing" topic is really depressing to me. Especially when it's a black person trying to have the conversation, and they get written off as some kind of race traitor for their dissent. It sucks, and it just provides a trojan horse for right wing nutjobs to smuggle actual racism into the conversation under the guise of "having the tough conversation that liberals are afraid to have". My conservative best bud says racist and other bigoted stuff sometimes and I call him out on it. He just has the balls to accept that as my opinion without freaking out. And hell, sometimes he will even aknowledge that he was pre-judging people or reading a book by its cover or w/e. We're not supposed to be politically correct, right? We're supposed to say what we mean, right? It's not like conservatives have a monopoly on racism, and it's not like someone pointing out a racist thought process is necessarily a personal attack. When I call out my friend's racism I'm not saying that he disgusts me and I hate him. In fact, I've said this to him nearly word for word. "The reason you shouldn't generalize people is not because it is evil or because social pressure forces you to conform. You should abstain because it doesn't work and will make your assumptions about others wrong so much of the time." Not to say there aren't form of racism that are legitimately evil because there are, but making weird assumptions about black people and crime then selectively accepting evidence to conform to that bias isn't a lynching on the construction of a gas chamber. Basically if you literally couldn't be friends with someone who will call you out on your bigotry, toughen up cupcake.
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Sep 18, 2016 19:28
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