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TWSS posted:That engine is clean as gently caress, I can see why you're set on getting some use out of it before community pressure forces you to drop in a ITB k24 with 14:1 compression. That being said, throw an oil pan baffle in there. With the 4-5 s2ks that have come through the shop, the ones that don't have baffles have all shown signs of oil starvation with cam lobe wear. One that has 180k kms has a better looking top end than one with 65k. Oil pan is definitely getting a baffle, don't like tracking anything without one. From what you've seen do any stand out as more effective than the others? Haven't been ordered anything yet but am looking at what's available.
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Sep 19, 2016 01:41
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I would never suggest 14:1 na and itbs. This is the way to go:  Although that car did blow up a lot of engines and transmissions.
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Sep 19, 2016 01:55
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jamal posted:I would never suggest 14:1 na and itbs. I would. Becuase screaming noise is more awesome.
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Sep 19, 2016 13:21
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NitroSpazzz posted:Oil pan is definitely getting a baffle, don't like tracking anything without one. From what you've seen do any stand out as more effective than the others? Haven't been ordered anything yet but am looking at what's available. The stock oil pan is a cast aluminum unit which is good for overall rigidity of the block, so I would stay away from full-on replacement pans made from sheet metal. The toda/spoon units are effective, but blacktrax basically copied their design and are selling it for half the price. That being said, you already have a honda oil pan, so a weld/bolt-in unit would be the most cost effective. I've only installed bolt-in baffles on k-series motors and never had an issue with leaking since i coat the bolts in hondabond/permatex ultra grey. Welding to a used oil pan is always going to be a dirty job because it's a real bitch to get the all the old oil out of aluminum because it's so porous.
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Sep 19, 2016 13:42
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Oh yeah, uh... Do some math on the steering rack placement. You really don't want to move the steering rack if it'll change the handling for the worse. Back on the K24 train, this might be of interest of people around here: http://www.miataturbo.net/engine-performance-56/k24-miata-dyno-testing-headers-cams-more-90561/
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Sep 19, 2016 16:41
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I've seen offset tie rod ends that move the inner pivot: Something like this: http://www.gktech.com/offset-steering-rack-extenders.html Meant for increasing steering angle for drift cars, but could reduce changes to bump steer and ackerman with a relocated rack.
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Sep 19, 2016 17:59
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TWSS posted:The stock oil pan is a cast aluminum unit which is good for overall rigidity of the block, so I would stay away from full-on replacement pans made from sheet metal. The toda/spoon units are effective, but blacktrax basically copied their design and are selling it for half the price. That being said, you already have a honda oil pan, so a weld/bolt-in unit would be the most cost effective. I've only installed bolt-in baffles on k-series motors and never had an issue with leaking since i coat the bolts in hondabond/permatex ultra grey. Welding to a used oil pan is always going to be a dirty job because it's a real bitch to get the all the old oil out of aluminum because it's so porous. That depends. I've seen some really beautiful TIG work done on junkyard Vortec cast alloy pans by guys on the Sloppy Mechanics FB group. I think a lot of it has to do with the alloy, casting method, cleanup performed, and the person between the pedal and the torch.
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Sep 20, 2016 00:19
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kastein posted:That depends. I've seen some really beautiful TIG work done on junkyard Vortec cast alloy pans by guys on the Sloppy Mechanics FB group. I think a lot of it has to do with the alloy, casting method, cleanup performed, and the person between the pedal and the torch. Digging through my suspension design books and reading up on things, should be able to do some measuring and tinkering this weekend. Might end up removing a spring and running the suspension through it's range with the rack in a few places. Posting this here so I don't lose it, from here - http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15176&sid=aa46ffb2fc3ec8d441583a04ef0fdfa3&start=15 quote:To wire the ECU use this guide I highlighted the ones in red that I used. I ran a separate wire to the starter form the start button.
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Sep 20, 2016 13:31
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kastein posted:That depends. I've seen some really beautiful TIG work done on junkyard Vortec cast alloy pans by guys on the Sloppy Mechanics FB group. I think a lot of it has to do with the alloy, casting method, cleanup performed, and the person between the pedal and the torch. It's definitely possible if you have the time and patience to clean it properly, but I just don't bother because the bolt-in baffles work fine. I did some research and it seems like there isn't a well thought out bolt-in solution for the s2k, so the moroso weld in baffle is probably your best option.
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Sep 20, 2016 13:40
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InitialDave posted:Ventil zeitliche anpassung elektronische steuerung gerade gekickt im yah. Gefahr Verteiler Klaus!
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Sep 20, 2016 16:24
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 If you're handy with sheet metal, you could probably just make something like this (but for the f20 oil pan) that includes a shroud with trap-doors for the pickup and another shroud that restricts flow to the timing chain area so it doesn't froth the oil on hard braking.
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Sep 20, 2016 16:58
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Do you really need to worry about it too much? It's not like it's anything structural, so if the shape fits neatly into the internal profile of the sump, it shouldn't need anything too heavy-duty to hold it in position. Even pretty poor tack welds should be just fine.extreme_accordion posted:Gefahr Verteiler Klaus!
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Sep 20, 2016 17:50
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InitialDave posted:Do you really need to worry about it too much? It's not like it's anything structural, so if the shape fits neatly into the internal profile of the sump, it shouldn't need anything too heavy-duty to hold it in position. Even pretty poor tack welds should be just fine. S2ki has been drat useful for getting other miscellaneous things. Have an oil filter relocation kit on the way which will make it easy to plumb in the oil cooler.
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Sep 20, 2016 18:03
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InitialDave posted:Do you really need to worry about it too much? It's not like it's anything structural, so if the shape fits neatly into the internal profile of the sump, it shouldn't need anything too heavy-duty to hold it in position. Exactly! That's why fasteners save you the hour of labour and $$ of solvents needed to prep a used pan for welding. On a brand new pan welding is a great idea and you can instagram the stacked dimes, but I wouldn't pay for welds on an oil pan unless it needs to be modified to solve a clearance problem.
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Sep 20, 2016 18:08
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Mid-ish week update, got a bunch of parts in for the Honda. Oil jets, valve spring retainers and keepers, valve cover gasket set and Honda sealer. Not pictured valve spring compressor tool to make things easier.  I've also been talking with CAtuned about the swap and might have figured out a solution to make this whole thing a hell of a lot easier. If this works I'm guessing a lot more people are going to be looking into this swap. Parts should be here for testing this weekend.
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Sep 22, 2016 14:10
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This is going to be awesome. Hopefully I'll have a thread up soon for my similarly blasphemous Volvo project.
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Sep 22, 2016 21:14
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Not a lot of progress made this week or weekend, was sick as hell most of the week and only feeling halfway decent today. Mounts to try the CAtuned option didn't show up as expected so I decided to do some maintenance on the engine. Started on the ap2 valve retainers/keepers then ran out of energy...stupid cold. But first a Horror Freight run for some supplies  Back in the garage remove the coil on plug and valve cover bolts  Shiny!  Get that crap out of the way so you can access the valves  Use ebay f/k-series valve spring compressor to replace failure prone ap1 parts with ap2 parts. Grease helps a lot on reassembly to keep the keepers stuck on the valve stem  Drop a washer down the oil passage and cry a bit then smile when the washer is in the oil pan that's only held on by 4 bolts   Call it a day, go watch Mad Max Also found another guy doing this swap with a custom oil pan and what sounds like a diy dry sump.
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Sep 25, 2016 16:58
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When you say f/k would that also include the old f22 series found in accords? Because I have ahead I need to rebuild and want a tool I can use without removing the head.
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Sep 25, 2016 19:39
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SouthsideSaint posted:When you say f/k would that also include the old f22 series found in accords? Because I have ahead I need to rebuild and want a tool I can use without removing the head. Not sure if it will work on those, they weren't on the listing - http://www.ebay.com/itm/111481786950?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT If you find out it will work let me know and I can send it over once I'm done with it. Will probably be loaning it out to a few people once I finish.
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Sep 25, 2016 20:07
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NitroSpazzz posted:Not sure if it will work on those, they weren't on the listing - http://www.ebay.com/itm/111481786950?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Yeah it does. I appreciate the offer but i want my own. I mess with honda motors ALOT and being able to rebuild heads on the car is something i have wanted. Snap on once made a tool for it but it was $$$$ this one is much more affordable. Also love what your doing with this BMW.
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Sep 25, 2016 21:14
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This is sacrilege, beautiful, glorious sacrilege, and I love it so much
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Sep 27, 2016 05:27
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http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/1308-are-dry-sump-system/ Why not this? Kill two birds with one stone - no oil starvation issues and the steering rack can stay in the same spot.
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Sep 27, 2016 05:57
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I need these antirollbar Diagrams For Crazy Assed CHU things...... And for useful Advice..... I think moving the Rack will stuff up a car that apparently has fairly good geometry. How far off the Budget is a Dry sump? That or find a competitent person with a TIG and redo the sump using the old one as the base. NitroSpazzz posted:Was supposed to meet a guy to look at the 928 but he had something come up which gave me some time to kill. Sat down and took inventory of the boxes of miscellaneous stuff that came with the car. Kaptainballistik fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 08:02
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charliemonster42 posted:http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/1308-are-dry-sump-system/ Kaptainballistik posted:I need these antirollbar Diagrams It's strange but a lot of companies don't actually list the price for their dry sump stuff other than TODA at $16k (http://www.todaracingusa.com/catalog/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=202&idcategory=55) but there's a few options out there. Seems the cheaper kits have issues maintaining pressure while in VTEC or are skimping somewhere else. These drat engines move a LOT of oil in VTEC, the stock unit is good for 100L/min at 9k rpm. Kaptainballistik I'll scan the diagrams next time I'm at work (loving cold  ) and post a link for max resolution.Also the CAtuned thing I mentioned, they said a few years ago they were able to do this swap with stock m42 mounts and everything lined up. My set of m42 mounts arrived yesterday so if I don't feel like poo poo sometime this week I'll try. I have a feeling the steering rack with still be in the way or the engine will sit too high for the hood to close. edit: Looks like Race Engine Design in the UK (http://raceenginedesign.biz/honda.htm) is the most recommended dry sump kit for this engine. Old forum posts put the price at $2500 USD at old exchange rates. I sent them an email to see what the current price is. NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 10:55
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stock m42 engine mounts and custom arms on the motor itself? man this swap (or a KA swap) is looking better and better for my 318iS
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Sep 27, 2016 15:53
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BraveUlysses posted:stock m42 engine mounts and custom arms on the motor itself? man this swap (or a KA swap) is looking better and better for my 318iS According to the email stock m42 mounts on stock F20 s2000 motor mount arms. But from what I've seen and measured I don't think it will actually clear. I will be very very happy if it does but I think it will either sit too high to clear the hood or the oil pan will interfere with the steering rack. Basically the f20 is a super tall engine with a tall/deep oil pan, if you mount it high enough to clear the subframe/rack the hood won't close.
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Sep 27, 2016 15:56
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Bigass 80's power bulge in the hood.
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Sep 27, 2016 17:31
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If you have the money, I think designing your own mounts that utilize the smaller packaging of a dry-sump is the best idea. It would probably enable you to nestle the engine lower and closer to the firewall than you would with a stock pan.
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Sep 27, 2016 18:15
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Cakefool posted:Bigass 80's power bulge in
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Sep 27, 2016 19:22
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Dailey makes an integrated pan and pump mount: http://www.daileyengineering.com/home/honda-2/honda-f-20/ Scavenges the pan without any fittings or lines which is pretty neat. jamal fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 19:26
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TWSS posted:If you have the money, I think designing your own mounts that utilize the smaller packaging of a dry-sump is the best idea. It would probably enable you to nestle the engine lower and closer to the firewall than you would with a stock pan. jamal posted:Dailey makes an integrated pan and pump mount:  drat that's nice, would be even nicer if they listed prices...oh well email sent
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Sep 27, 2016 20:01
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I'm guessing quite a bit but keep in mind it really cuts down on other dry sump components you need with a bare pan and standard pump. I would ask how the oil feed and adding a cooler works, looks like it would be a pretty short run and delete the stock pumps (some systems use the stock pump and the dry sump pump for scavenging only). And probably much less than toda. So you would have a line to/from the tank, feed, scavenge from the head, and that's about it. Super clean and simple and won't require as much hose and fittings as other systems, an oil filter block, etc. jamal fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 20:17
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InitialDave posted:
I was going more for the "Danger to Manifold, Yo!" This build is awesome. WI people being unreasonable about passe car ideals... tell me more. We got poo poo for beams red top swapping our mk1 mr2 from a few crazed purists.
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Sep 27, 2016 21:00
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jamal posted:I'm guessing quite a bit but keep in mind it really cuts down on other dry sump components you need with a bare pan and standard pump. Off cuff I would suggest looking at a 2 stage scavenge designed for an Escort and fabricate a Sump.
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Sep 28, 2016 07:34
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Heard back from Race Engine Design (RED), their kit is £1500 as pictured. I would need to find a suitable tank and all the lines. Stock s2k oil pan in the background for comparison.    Dailey put me in touch with one of their customers using their pan. Gave me a lot of info and pictures but no price, I'm assuming mega bucks but we'll see. Pan is 25mm at thickest part.    So I have a few options: 1) Chop pan and push steering rack into subframe like the guy in second post did. Will need a custom pan baffle (of modify one) as well as some aluminum welding on the pan obviously. Would also want custom tie rod offset pieces to make up for whatever distance the steering rack needs to be moved, similar to http://www.gktech.com/offset-steeri...-extenders.html I have a feeling this may be the swap that CAtuned was talking about using oem m42 mounts shimmed up 1/4" though they said everything fit. Probably the second cheapest option.   2) My original plan of moving steering rack forward and building a custom subframe. No pan modifications needed except a baffle. Will also need to make custom mounts for the steering rack, probably tied into the subframe and chassis rails. Not sure if I'm going to be better off removing a spring and taking measurements through the travel range at various rack positions or if I should just measure the hell out of everything and do the math to figure out the optimum position. This has the chance of completely loving up the handling of the car if I get the rack positioned wrong but is the cheapest option. 3) Dry sump. Subframe and steering rack stay as they are. RED is currently top choice as I'm assuming the Dailey is going to be something like 3k or more before the tank/lines/etc. Most other kits offered have bad reviews. Piecing together a dry sump of my own is an option as I have a local aluminum guy that could modify the pan and I know the requirements of the pump. 4) Other engine options? Pretty sure I need to sell the drat 928 asap so I can just go dry sump and get this project rolling. Anyway feeling a bit better so if I have energy after work I'll do some more work on the retainers. I forgot to grab the adjustable swaybar diagrams...sorry, set myself a reminder for tomorrow. NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Sep 28, 2016 |
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Sep 28, 2016 13:27
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From http://www.speedracersportscars.com.au/PRBS2K.htm this guy made his own dry sump pan by chopping the oem one. Appears the F20 is becoming more popular as an engine for lotus 7 type cars and most are running a dry sump since the engine is so drat tall.   
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Sep 28, 2016 14:54
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So it's safe to assume that once you go dry sup the front suspension geometry is left alone?
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Sep 28, 2016 16:09
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Dry sump should allow a shallow enough pan that nothing in the way of steering, suspension or subframe will have to be modified. Only possible modification would be plates welded to subframe for engine mounts.
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Sep 28, 2016 16:29
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For 1500 pounds for a pump and pan that's proven to work, I'd hit it unless you're really willing to do trial and error stuff. Though it's not like it's stupidly large amounts of flow - I'm seeing about 60l/min at 6k RPM, and I'm skeptical that it's not hitting pressure relief valve too. I'd be really surprised if the engine is somehow actually using 100l/min at 9k RPM and not shunting most of it through the bypass valve. You could take those numbers and hit someone up for pump specs, but then the price of the pump and you're back in the territory of that RET unit and have to figure out how to mount it. I would hit ebay for a tank though, and you can run hardline for most of the oil lines to reduce cost there.
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Sep 28, 2016 17:04
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I agree, as long as it's a proven design, that's around $2k USD at current exchange rates. If you blow up just one F20C trying to make your own patched together setup work to save a few hundred bucks, you're already behind AND need to buy a drysump or redesign your homebrew thing. There are times when I'll homebrew the hell out of something to save money (subframes, motor and trans mount brackets, crossmembers, wiring harnesses, etc) and times when it's just silly to consider it unless it's your day job.
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Sep 28, 2016 17:17
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