Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Edmond Dantes
Sep 12, 2007

Reactor: Online
Sensors: Online
Weapons: Online

ALL SYSTEMS NOMINAL
This stage really reminds me of Gunstar Heroes' airship one.

I really liked the vertical screens analysis, it's one of those things I probably would never have noticed unless pointed out, since I'd be too bloody furious about having missed a jump again.

Also: "I don't think this screen is that difficult", said Kaubocks as he navigated a level with changing wind patterns, pogo'd on cannonballs and proceeded to clown one of the widely acclaimed most difficult bosses in the game.

Showoff. :v:

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Buzzsaw Roomba
Feb 14, 2012

Christ, what an asshole.

Kaubocks posted:

I'm glad I'm not on a Thursday update schedule-- I have no idea how I'd stack up against the Logan trailer, Red Dead Redemption 2 teaser, and Nintendo Switch reveal!

This latest video took a lot of work and a lot of takes. Hopefully my editing isn't too jarring!



Good verticality talk!

I said before that Stranded Ship was a difficult stage for me, but after completing my first playthrough and seeing my stats, Flying Machine gave me by far my most deaths of any stage. I think it was the area with the spikes and shifting winds that Kaubocks breezed through.

Had no idea Propeller Knight could be cheesed with the timing on those hits! It felt like the fastest boss fight yet.

Buzzsaw Roomba fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Oct 21, 2016

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Kaubocks posted:

I'm glad I'm not on a Thursday update schedule-- I have no idea how I'd stack up against the Logan trailer, Red Dead Redemption 2 teaser, and Nintendo Switch reveal!

This latest video took a lot of work and a lot of takes. Hopefully my editing isn't too jarring!


It's me, I'm the guy who hates the changing wind screen. My biggest problem is three-fold:
1) I hate waiting around and getting a feel for the situation
2) It's at the tail-end of a bunch of other technical screens that you just cannot go through quickly
3) Every tiny mistake is instant death
This caused me no end of frustration. Not because it is objectively hard to understand what you have to do; that is not the point. It is psychologically hard to restrain yourself, keep going through the same motions over and over again to reach the screen of death, play it safe, wait, don't gently caress up the execution, all with the threat of going through all of the other poo poo, with the other instant death pits and the most annoying enemies in the game if you slip up just a bit. Absolutely voted worst screen in Shovel Knight.

Also, we had already two great wind screens which is something that hasn't been pulled off since Donkey Kong Country 2 (which pulled off a lot of things brilliantly): first you got wind that only helps you by pushing you forward, making long jumps possible and never asks of you poo poo like "now do a normal-length jump onto a tiny platform, hyuck" or fight minibosses between pits while its blowing or such romhack nonsense. Then you got wind that does push against you, but the combination with the auto-scroller means that it's not the wind that ultimately controls you speed, so it's not that bad, and they were again smart enough not to put in too difficult platforming or a slew of homing enemies or whatever else into it. That's great! That's brilliant! That's where they should have stopped!

Seeing as how long some of the single screens take anyway because Propeller Knight's stage is very much a puzzle platformer-type deal, much more so than other stages even though they all have puzzly elements, I think the stage feels by far the longest to play through. Especially if you are doing it fresh and are cautious around the many pits. In my opinion, nothing would have been lost by simply excising those last two screens - they don't even build on existing gimmicks (like the DKC2 level with the wind first from behind, then in front, then switching did), it's practically an entirely new one. For each screen. gently caress those screens.

Also, instant death in bossfight is almost never fun. I think Polar Knight is just veering on the "ok" side of things because he's so big that you can use his body as a pogo-platform to avoid the spikes, but Propeller doesn't have this luxury, happens to be one of the fastest bosses period and can mimic the wonderful ability of the green rear end in a top hat fuckers to actively pull you into the pit. Not fun either, especially after the nightmare of his stage. I loathe replaying this.

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010

:science:
Soiled Meat
I never stopped to appreciate how pretty the background on this stage is.

Spoilers: it's very pretty

Samovar
Jun 4, 2011

I'm 😤 not a 🦸🏻‍♂️hero...🧜🏻



You gyroscopic jester is a great insult.

Bit I must confess, the music I thought was the most disappointing. It starts off great but then just... becomes very generic sounding.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Propeller rats are, in fact, the cutest.

IronSaber
Feb 24, 2009

:roboluv: oh yes oh god yes form the head FORM THE HEAD unghhhh...:fap:
Cool, you found the InfiniDagger.

MachuPikacchu
Oct 15, 2012

Sacre vert! Maman!

Okay, so, the music in this stage isn't my favorite in the game, but it is the track that most impressed me in the game, specifically because the first part sounds like the music is being heard through a spinning fan. It's uncanny how I understood that instinctively the first time I played the stage.

thetoughestbean
Apr 27, 2013

Keep On Shroomin
Can we take a moment to talk the rose that Propellor Knight threw when he was defeated?

:3: I love Propellor Knight, even if his fight kills me every time.

Kaubocks
Apr 13, 2011

Got a couple new music sheets-- let's check 'em out!

38 - High Above the Land
A grand airship, once the pinnacle of luxury transportation.
"I penned this track in a mere 3 hours, in front of a live audience! How? YEARS of study!"

39 - The Spin Controller
Don't go overboard, or you will find yourself foiled by Propeller Knight!
"NEVER take a gig on an airship. They made me sleep in the cargo bay! Rubbish!"


I still disagree with that one screen being that bad. It's two gaps and really only one ceiling of spikes than can threaten you. There's also a checkpoint in the room before it so it's easy to get back. This stage for sure gave me the most trouble when I first played through the game and I'm sure time has dulled my senses but I don't remember this screen ever being the source of my worries. As I mentioned in the vid I don't want to diminish the complaints of those who did have problems with this screen because lots of people have trouble doing things others are good at. I just personally disagree and think there are other screens in the game that are harder.

I do 100% agree with you that Propeller Knight handles instant death poorly but I chumped on him too hard to really expand on that. The part where I move to the left just before he lands from flying? You're basically dead if you stand in the middle of the screen since he'll just push you into a hole. That's not particularly fun for anyone involved.


C-Euro posted:

I never stopped to appreciate how pretty the background on this stage is.

Spoilers: it's very pretty



Maybe you should pay attention when people are talking to you. :colbert:
(I really like seeing the Tower of Fate in the background as you progress through the level!)

Molly Millions
Jan 27, 2011

It's not like bullshit, more like poetry.
Loved the rats, the rat discussion, the rat vote, the propellors, all of it. Wishin we had a proprat smiley.

Tuskin38
May 1, 2013

Have you seen these posts?
They're pretty popular on Reddit.
God the Music/SF/Visuals/everything about this game is beautiful.

Color Printer
May 9, 2011

You get used to it. I don't
even see the code. All I see
is Ipecac, Scapular, Polyphemus...


Those green propeller dudes can gently caress off forever

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Color Printer posted:

Those green propeller dudes can gently caress off forever

They have to be that lovely to make up the cosmic balance for how great the proprats are.

Looper
Mar 1, 2012

Simply Simon posted:

It's me, I'm the guy who hates the changing wind screen. My biggest problem is three-fold:
1) I hate waiting around and getting a feel for the situation
2) It's at the tail-end of a bunch of other technical screens that you just cannot go through quickly
3) Every tiny mistake is instant death
This caused me no end of frustration. Not because it is objectively hard to understand what you have to do; that is not the point. It is psychologically hard to restrain yourself, keep going through the same motions over and over again to reach the screen of death, play it safe, wait, don't gently caress up the execution, all with the threat of going through all of the other poo poo, with the other instant death pits and the most annoying enemies in the game if you slip up just a bit. Absolutely voted worst screen in Shovel Knight.

Also, we had already two great wind screens which is something that hasn't been pulled off since Donkey Kong Country 2 (which pulled off a lot of things brilliantly): first you got wind that only helps you by pushing you forward, making long jumps possible and never asks of you poo poo like "now do a normal-length jump onto a tiny platform, hyuck" or fight minibosses between pits while its blowing or such romhack nonsense. Then you got wind that does push against you, but the combination with the auto-scroller means that it's not the wind that ultimately controls you speed, so it's not that bad, and they were again smart enough not to put in too difficult platforming or a slew of homing enemies or whatever else into it. That's great! That's brilliant! That's where they should have stopped!

Seeing as how long some of the single screens take anyway because Propeller Knight's stage is very much a puzzle platformer-type deal, much more so than other stages even though they all have puzzly elements, I think the stage feels by far the longest to play through. Especially if you are doing it fresh and are cautious around the many pits. In my opinion, nothing would have been lost by simply excising those last two screens - they don't even build on existing gimmicks (like the DKC2 level with the wind first from behind, then in front, then switching did), it's practically an entirely new one. For each screen. gently caress those screens.

Also, instant death in bossfight is almost never fun. I think Polar Knight is just veering on the "ok" side of things because he's so big that you can use his body as a pogo-platform to avoid the spikes, but Propeller doesn't have this luxury, happens to be one of the fastest bosses period and can mimic the wonderful ability of the green rear end in a top hat fuckers to actively pull you into the pit. Not fun either, especially after the nightmare of his stage. I loathe replaying this.

I understand and largely appreciate your philosophy on level design, but it's not the only philosophy. And I also don't think that screen is bad at all, but it's funny you bring up DKC2 because Gusty Glade and Animal Antics ask far more of the player in a far less forgiving manner (some of the wind triggers in GG are real finicky)

White Coke
May 29, 2015
Proprats are great, but I think propchinchillas would be cuter.

Kaubocks
Apr 13, 2011

Looper
Mar 1, 2012
also there's no shame in using the phase locket!


good

NinetySevenA
Feb 10, 2013


I don't think I ever got around to beating propeller knight.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Looper posted:

I understand and largely appreciate your philosophy on level design, but it's not the only philosophy.
I have been criticized in the past that I present my opinion as fact and try to drown out other people's opinion, which I don't actually want to do, so I made specifically sure that I sprinkled in a lot of "in my opinion" and "I think" in this post. Was that still not enough? Honest question. I like writing a lot of words at once, that's just how I write, it's not meant to be a tactic or anything. Of course it's fine to think differently.

quote:

And I also don't think that screen is bad at all, but it's funny you bring up DKC2 because Gusty Glade and Animal Antics ask far more of the player in a far less forgiving manner (some of the wind triggers in GG are real finicky)
I keep forgetting Animal Antics because I might have beaten that level, like, once and never bothered again and that was very late in my many times playing DKC2. I always run out of steam at the end. That is indeed a terrible wind level. Gusty Glade however I always really liked because while the triggers are not the best in the world, they are placed in a way that if you just keep going, you will always be helped by the wind, keeping up the flow I love so much. It gives the level a unique speed because of that and it's one of my favourites because of that.

Windy Well is also quite nice because the wind often prevents you from falling down, an issue many vertical levels have, so it's both a core level design element and progress tool and a safety net. Again, you can bypass the triggers by just falling in the wrong places which doesn't make it perfect, but it's better than nothing!

Jen X
Sep 29, 2014

To bring light to the darkness, whether that darkness be ignorance, injustice, apathy, or stagnation.

Not an emptyquote

Molly Millions
Jan 27, 2011

It's not like bullshit, more like poetry.

this is when a good lp became a great lp

I dont know
Aug 9, 2003

That Guy here...

Looper posted:

I understand and largely appreciate your philosophy on level design, but it's not the only philosophy. And I also don't think that screen is bad at all, but it's funny you bring up DKC2 because Gusty Glade and Animal Antics ask far more of the player in a far less forgiving manner (some of the wind triggers in GG are real finicky)

I don't remember Gusty Glade, but Animal Antics is the final level in an optional bonus world. It's not really fair to directly compare it to mainline levels since bonus world levels like in Lost World and Star Road are designed to be both absurdly difficult and more playful in what is allowed. The built in intention is that only a small percentage of players will even see these later worlds and a smaller number of them will actually complete them. For Animal Antics, control snapping bullshit is a feature not a flaw (though I will concede that they may have overdone it).

EponymousMrYar
Jan 4, 2015

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy.
Propeller Knight and his stage seems to mostly be about reflexes. It reminds me a lot of Proton Jon's run through Ninja Gaidan: either you know something is coming or you have the reflexes to react to something and learn from it.

The pattern wind area is a little mean, since it seems easy that a player will kill themselves doing usual player things simply because the third stage comes out so late.


:five:

Paul.Power
Feb 7, 2009

The three roles of APCs:
Transports.
Supply trucks.
Distractions.

A small version for posting shenanigans:

Kaubocks
Apr 13, 2011

Just one more member of the Order of No Quarter remains so let's get to it!



Phone posting so I really hope the formatting goes through correctly... Gonna be a pain to fix if not.

Paul.Power
Feb 7, 2009

The three roles of APCs:
Transports.
Supply trucks.
Distractions.

So when I said a while back that my favourite music track was later in the game... well, here we are. I'm a sucker for a good bassline, and Clockwork Tower's theme, "Of Devious Machinations" delivers that in spades (ahem). And as with the Flying Machine's propeller noises, the incidental noises do a great job of sounding like a giant clock.

bman in 2288
Apr 21, 2010
I'm saddened that you didn't utter "Metal Gear?!". It seemed the most appropriate place to do so.

CannonFodder
Jan 26, 2001

Passion’s Wrench
That giant mecha reveal :allears:

White Coke
May 29, 2015

bman in 2288 posted:

I'm saddened that you didn't utter "Metal Gear?!". It seemed the most appropriate place to do so.

Woodn't that be "Wooden Gear?!"

Tinker Knight is by far the most adorable boss. Perhaps he's the one putting propellers on the proprats.

Buzzsaw Roomba
Feb 14, 2012

Christ, what an asshole.
Yeah, ever since I figured out how Mecha Tinker Knight works, I take less damage from him than his first form. The easiest boss by far.

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?
Taco Defender
gently caress that vertical autoscroller. It is an incredibly frustrating section, and it probably resulted in about a solid 10-15% of my deaths in the entire game.

bman in 2288
Apr 21, 2010

White Coke posted:

Woodn't that be "Wooden Gear?!"

Nah. Look at it. Mostly, if not entirely, metal. And the gears, so many of them.

Paul.Power
Feb 7, 2009

The three roles of APCs:
Transports.
Supply trucks.
Distractions.

Incidentally, one neat speedrunning trick you can do with the mobile gear is bypassing most of that horizontal "fake autoscroller" section. Just plop it on the spikes and away you go!

MachuPikacchu
Oct 15, 2012

Sacre vert! Maman!

There's another neat trick with the Mobile Gear, but I'm going to hold off on saying what it is because I think Kaubocks wants to show it off himself.

The Mecha fight really is ridiculously easy; if you time your bounces right, you can maneuver around the right-firing shoulder missile and continue bouncing on Tinker Knight, such that you only have to see him charge once.

Kaubocks
Apr 13, 2011

Some more astute viewers may notice that in this level I actually picked up three music sheets instead of the usual two. Let's check out what they are!

33 - Of Devious Machinations
A riveting tale of a mechanical marauder, gearing up for domination.
"I tried explaining noise channel manipulation to Tinker Knight. His response: 'Do your job, Bard.' The nerve!"

34 - The Schemer
Short in stature, short in speech, short in patience!
"Ol' Tinker takes his work seriously, so I wanted to keep things completely serious."

35 - The Destroyer
...But very large in ambition, and heavy in firepower.
"I could hardly hear myself think over that cursed tank, with all those missiles going off!"


MachuPikacchu posted:

There's another neat trick with the Mobile Gear, but I'm going to hold off on saying what it is because I think Kaubocks wants to show it off himself.

If we're thinking of the same thing, I do! To be a smidge clearer for those in the know, well... let's just say aesthetic isn't the only reason I name dropped Metal Man. ;)

vdate
Oct 25, 2010
Well, that's the Order of No Quarter dealt with. Now we get to the bit where the game stops loving around, because god drat did some parts of the endgame get hard for me. I'm looking forward to seeing how Kaubocks dismantles them!

Kaubocks
Apr 13, 2011

Just a quick update on tomorrow:

My home internet has been going me lots of issues lately and I have a technician coming out to check it out. I also have an incredibly important appointment to attend early afternoon! Just letting y'all know that if I DO have the means of publishing tomorrow's video, it'll likely be up a bit later than usual. :)

Looper
Mar 1, 2012

Simply Simon posted:

I have been criticized in the past that I present my opinion as fact and try to drown out other people's opinion, which I don't actually want to do, so I made specifically sure that I sprinkled in a lot of "in my opinion" and "I think" in this post. Was that still not enough? Honest question. I like writing a lot of words at once, that's just how I write, it's not meant to be a tactic or anything. Of course it's fine to think differently.

I keep forgetting Animal Antics because I might have beaten that level, like, once and never bothered again and that was very late in my many times playing DKC2. I always run out of steam at the end. That is indeed a terrible wind level. Gusty Glade however I always really liked because while the triggers are not the best in the world, they are placed in a way that if you just keep going, you will always be helped by the wind, keeping up the flow I love so much. It gives the level a unique speed because of that and it's one of my favourites because of that.

Windy Well is also quite nice because the wind often prevents you from falling down, an issue many vertical levels have, so it's both a core level design element and progress tool and a safety net. Again, you can bypass the triggers by just falling in the wrong places which doesn't make it perfect, but it's better than nothing!

Oh no you're not at all coming off that way at all, don't worry! I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to attack you. I do agree that Windy Well is a really good level and example of the wind mechanic used uh, well

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Kaubocks
Apr 13, 2011

It's okay, everyone! Calm down! Your regularly scheduled update is here:



Since I'm actually home when I posted this I'm gonna edit this post with the new music sheets when I get them together right now!

9 - Bucklers and Bonnets
This song just makes you want to try out new types of armor, right?
"My suggestion to incorporate anvils into this composition was tossed aside. PAH! I say, make music not war!"

17 - Requiem of Shield Knight
Your memories still haunt you, even when you dream.
"My string quartet is available to play weddings and funerals. Here, take my bard card!"

Requiem of Shield Knight is probably my favorite song in the game. ...this isn't the bard speaking, this is me. I like it a lot! I just think the nightmare sections are super well done. :3:

Kaubocks fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Oct 28, 2016

  • Locked thread