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CountFosco posted:So would Eastern Orthodox recognize the baptism of a protestant? If they're wrong about its legitimacy, and the baptism was legitimate (say, through the holy spirit) would a second baptism have some negative consequences? I know someone who had four separate Catholic baptisms; she was sickly as a child and two relatives baptized her secretly, along with her parents having a nurse in the hospital baptize her, and then just in case she had a baptism at church, too. So this isn't even a case of "what if a Jehovah's Witness baptism was valid after all" (since Catholics consider them definitely not valid), since even the wackiest, most-vacant-sedevacantist folks don't rebaptize fellow Catholics. There's no negative consequences for the baptizand; one supposes that a minister purposefully rebaptizing people whom he or she knows are not in need of baptism might be trivializing the sacrament, which is bad, but wouldn't affect the person being baptized. The Eastern Orthodox in general are much less, uh, particular about rules, so I can't imagine it's any different for any of their, uh... subgroups. (Is "particular church" an Orthodox term too?)
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Sep 22, 2016 18:19
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Well, you gotta be careful because rebaptizing a validly baptized believer will make them catch fire and explode, like they're sodium.
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Sep 22, 2016 18:19
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I'm a non-christian immigrant, but I've lived in America long enough that I want to visit a church just to observe and get a general sense of it all. A few questions: 1) Is there a specific denomination I should visit? I'm from the midwest if that helps. 2) What sort of decorum should I expect? I can just walk into my home religion's temple wearing shorts/t-shirt on any given day and it's no big deal. 3) Anything in particular I should look out for? 4) General advice would be appreciated. I'm not looking to be converted, but I'm a bit nervous to just walk into a church because I have no idea what to expect. Don't want everyone to stare at the strange brown guy, and don't want to accidentally disrespect anyone.
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Sep 22, 2016 18:23
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dk2m posted:I'm a non-christian immigrant, but I've lived in America long enough that I want to visit a church just to observe and get a general sense of it all. A few questions: 1. Nope, go wherever strikes your fancy. Different individual churches within the same denomination can be strikingly different (more so for Protestants than for Catholics and Orthodox) in how they conduct services, much less in beliefs. 2. I think it's unlikely you'd be chastised for dressing that casually, but most church cultures in America tend strongly towards wearing a collared shirt at least (assuming you're a guy). If you're in a college town, churches that cater to the college student audience tend to be far more relaxed. 3/4. Just bear in mind that Christianity is an astonishingly diverse religion in how it's practiced. I'm a Southern Baptist by background and would absolutely be fine going to church in a t-shirt and shorts, but look at some of the ridiculous costumes some other folks in this thread have posted being associated with their denomination. You can visit five different churches in one small town and get five very different experiences. Most churches in America have a social meet'n'greet before or after services, often with coffee and snacks, so if you're curious it's a great time to chat up people. Most American denominations tend to be very welcoming of interested strangers, be they Christian or no.
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Sep 22, 2016 18:35
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Cythereal posted:I'm a Southern Baptist by background and would absolutely be fine going to church in a t-shirt and shorts, but look at some of the ridiculous costumes some other folks in this thread have posted being associated with their denomination. also, zonohedron, what is a "particular church"? then i'll let you know if we have them
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Sep 22, 2016 18:36
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Some women cover their heads in orthodox services, but others don't It's mostly the Russians who cover their heads in my experience
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Sep 22, 2016 18:40
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Deteriorata posted:Well, you gotta be careful because rebaptizing a validly baptized believer will make them catch fire and explode, like they're sodium. Galaxy Note 7 Christianity.
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Sep 22, 2016 18:57
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HEY GAL posted:that's for the priests. the less americanized the Orthodox in question are the less likely they are to dress up for church. but men should uncover their heads and women should cover theirs. I have no idea the actual definition, but, e.g. the Latin-rite Catholics are a particular church, the Maronites are one...
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Sep 22, 2016 19:01
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zonohedron posted:I have no idea the actual definition, but, e.g. the Latin-rite Catholics are a particular church, the Maronites are one... I think. Edit: And I know ROCOR priests have gotten in trouble for rebaptizing Catholics. Some OCA priests do that and some do not.
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Sep 22, 2016 19:03
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zonohedron posted:The Eastern Orthodox in general are much less, uh, particular about rules, so I can't imagine it's any different for any of their, uh... subgroups. (Is "particular church" an Orthodox term too?) Smoking Crow posted:Some women cover their heads in orthodox services, but others don't When I first started going, someone told me it had to do with when the Greeks were under the Ottomans. Keromaru5 fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Sep 22, 2016 |
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Sep 22, 2016 19:15
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Since I mentioned yesterday that I'm interested in syncretism and folk religion I thought I'd mention a few of my favorite Latin American folk saints. None of these are officially sanctioned by the Catholic Church and in fact many of them have been vociferously opposed, but that hasn't stopped millions of people who consider themselves to be good Catholics from venerating them. First off, my favorite, and probably the most well known in the US, Santa Muerte:  Generally considered an example of syncretism between Catholicism and pre-Columbian Mesoamerican reverence for death, Santa Muerte is a folk saint that's pretty widely venerated in Mexico and among Mexican-American communities and she's started to have a few non-Latino devotees in the US as well. The Church in Mexico regards veneration of Santa Muerte as blasphemous and satanic, though from what I understand the Church in the US has largely remained silent on the issue, despite its growing popularity north of the border. Santa Muerte is really interesting because while she's widely associated with criminals, especially drug traffickers, she's also very popular among police officers and prison guards, and has been sort of adopted as a patron saint of the LGBTQ community in Mexico. Not to be confused with Santa Muerte, there's also San La Muerte from the Guarani speaking areas of Argentina, Paraguay and southern Brazil:  He serves a similar purpose, possibly representing a link to local pre-Columbian traditions, associated with criminals, hated by the official Church, etc., but I personally find it interesting that he's male, considering that the word muerte is grammatically feminine in Spanish the Mexican female characterization seems more expected. These are just two examples though, there are death saints in a number of Latin American cultures. Another Mexican folk saint, also associated with the drug trade, is Jesus Malverde, the Generous Bandit:  He's a historically questionable figure who may or may not have lived in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Supposedly he became a bandit after his parents were killed. The legend goes that he was told he'd be pardoned if he could successfully steal the governor of Sinaloa's sword but when he did so he was executed anyway. He gradually became regarded as sort of a Robin Hood figure and I can't help but see a link between his story and the character of Zorro, I wonder how much influence went back and forth there between the folk traditions and the Hollywood films. Somewhat different from these three is Maria Lionza from Venezuela.  I think Maria Lionza is quite a bit different from the others I've mentioned because at least some of her followers regard her as the central figure in her own religion with a really interesting pantheon of spirits, saints, and historical figures divided into so-called courts. Despite this semi-independent status she still seems tightly linked with Catholicism in most people's minds, in fact one of the courts consists of actual Catholic saints, sort of like how the saints are used in Cuban Santeria and other African Diasporic religious traditions. Finally, I'd like to mention the one that I think is most surprising, San Ernesto de la Higuera:  Yes, that's Che Guevara, noted Communist, and therefore atheist, revolutionary, who has apparently acquired a number of devotees who actually say prayers to him in the vicinity of the small Bolivian village where he was killed. This is one of my favorite things about folk religion, it's so unpredictable and surprising.
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Sep 22, 2016 19:46
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Excellent post. Thank you.
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Sep 22, 2016 19:56
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Cythereal posted:Evangelicals don't wear religious hats. Checkmate, liturgical. easter bonnets. check. and. mate.
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Sep 22, 2016 22:19
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Lutha Mahtin posted:easter bonnets. Easter bonnets? This is the first I've heard of them.
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Sep 22, 2016 22:27
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cythreal, isn't your ex black? what did the women who were like...three times her age wear to church? those hats are more like wedding cakes
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Sep 22, 2016 22:43
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dk2m posted:I'm a non-christian immigrant, but I've lived in America long enough that I want to visit a church just to observe and get a general sense of it all. A few questions: To follow from Cythereal's post, I'd suggest visiting any of the big mainstream liturgical denominations. Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, you might have difficulty finding an Orthodox church in the Midwest. Whichever of those have a large, old church in your area. Probably best not to wear shorts and a t-shirt, they're not gonna kick you out but pants and a button-up shirt is standard. Dress somewhat nicely. There's not really anything you can do to offend or disrespect, different denominations will have various rules about who can take communion but as a non-Christian you shouldn't. Any church will be very welcoming to visitors, if you want you can contact the priest and ask about visiting, maybe come a few minutes early and chat with the priest or deacons or whomever is available and they'll be happy to tell you about what's going on. Most services have a broadly similar format and will include: singing hymns reading of a few short Bible verses recitation of Apostle's Creed and Lord's Prayer communion/eucharist sermon or homily, usually related to the Bible readings There is usually coffee and snacks before or after the service, maybe even a full potluck meal. You can come early or stay after and chat with the parishioners or clergy.
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Sep 22, 2016 22:46
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dk2m posted:I'm a non-christian immigrant, but I've lived in America long enough that I want to visit a church just to observe and get a general sense of it all. A few questions: I have two main suggestions. One is to consider what type of brown you are and where, specifically, you live. It goes against everything I believe the Gospel stands for, but the fact remains that the Church (i.e. all people who consider themselves Christian) are humans, and humans do terrible things. The second suggestion is to simply check in with the church office before you go to visit. Give them a call or even stop by in person. This is probably the easiest way to figure out what you should wear and what you should/shouldn't do during a church service. There are a couple rules of thumb that you can probably go by, though. For fashion, and I am a dude so I will give advice about dudes, people generally aren't going to look funny at a first-time guest who shows up somewhere in the range of business casual to semi-formal. Something nicer than a T-shirt, jeans, and athletic shoes, but I would max out at semi-nice dress shoes, pants, shirt and tie. If you're in this range, reasonable people will think that you understand the range of proper church attire. For what to do and not do during a service, probably the big one is that if they do communion during the service, don't eat the bread or drink the wine. There might be an exception for Orthodox friendship bread or whatever it's called, but Orthogoons can explain that. The safest way to go here is to just stay in your pew during communion, but if you're visiting a place where the priest/pastor does verbal blessings for people not taking communion, it's something you could consider: in my opinion it would be kind of rude to go for a blessing if you don't genuinely want one, but even in that case, as long as you don't say anything or talk poo poo publicly on Twitter, nobody will know (except God, right?  ).Finally, I don't know exactly what you're looking for, but one of the key things to remember is that Christianity is an extremely varied religious tradition. So whatever you think of the first service or event you go to, know that there are an almost uncountable number of variations upon it, as well services and events that are almost completely different. This variation exists even within very small geographic areas, within single denominations. There is also a lot of variation depending on things like: the occasion for gathering, the time of year, and the time within different seasons. edit: and if you are comfortable sharing the general area you live in (e.g. metro area or corner of some state) i'm sure we could give you some specific recommendations edit2: HEY GAL posted:cythreal, isn't your ex black? wait, really??? lol how can you not know about this cyth? like, it was even a significant plot point in The Wire, so i would assume most goons are familiar with it Lutha Mahtin fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Sep 22, 2016 |
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Sep 22, 2016 22:47
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CountFosco posted:So would Eastern Orthodox recognize the baptism of a protestant? If they're wrong about its legitimacy, and the baptism was legitimate (say, through the holy spirit) would a second baptism have some negative consequences? More generally, does anyone know the history of how it was decided that some sacraments (baptism and marriage) transcended denomination, and some didn't. stereobreadsticks posted:great post Do you know how these folk saints are venerated (worshiped)? Is it just the same as form of veneration as that done by lay people for recognised saints, or are there additional aspects?
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Sep 22, 2016 22:51
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HEY GAL posted:cythreal, isn't your ex black? what did the women who were like...three times her age wear to church? those hats are more like wedding cakes We dated for three months and people dressed like any other college students going to church - t shirts and jeans were the rule.
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Sep 22, 2016 23:00
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Cythereal posted:We dated for three months and people dressed like any other college students going to church - t shirts and jeans were the rule.
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Sep 22, 2016 23:03
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 Uh... what exactly is the deal with the "capriote" one...?
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Sep 23, 2016 05:43
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Powered Descent posted:
The Spanish are very serious about Catholicism not a KKK thing
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Sep 23, 2016 05:45
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Powered Descent posted:
Completely unrelated to KKK.  A bit of a derail, but this reminds me of a series of minor incidents caused in US by a brand of Serbian candy. For almost a century now, there's been a brand of black licorice candy produced in Serbia (still fairly popular, too), called "Negro" after the Italian word for the black color (Italian was considered a 'fancy' language at the time the candy started being produced). The marketing for the candy was "the chimney sweeper for the throat" and the brand mascot was (and still is) a chimney sweeper. Now, chimney sweepers tend to get their faces dirty with the chimney ash, and, uh... Do I need to explain this further?
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Sep 23, 2016 06:57
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Pellisworth posted:The Spanish are very serious about Catholicism It's much older, too, most of those Spanish confraternities (hermandades or cofradías) date back to the late Middle Ages, in some cases even earlier. They're most prominent during Holy Week, when they will do elaborate processions through their cities and towns. Here's a random video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVeg4oTm32w Oh to see the face of an American tourist who happens to visit Spain during Holy Week without knowing about those confraternities 
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Sep 23, 2016 07:09
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Paramemetic posted:I had some weird experiences that prompted me to write to my favorite priest growing up, who, at the time, was in Rome as a Judicial Vicar. The question and his answer in some edited form still exists on the website of the diocese at which he is now a Monseigneur. "Kurt Wagner, did you use you powers for evil? Do you spy on women, steal or drop things on people from greit heights?" "No, father" "Then teleport with God, my son" EDIT: Church visiting: While I'm a dirty Euro living in a Euro country, I tend to go to church in jeans, t-shirt and a jacket. For Catholic church, just sit your rear end down in pew and listen to the show. The church I used to go to before I moved (I used to lived down town  ) was a major tourist attraction so you had people going in and out and milling about all the time during the Sunday mass. Also, children doing children stuff.I'm kind of jealous of the social/free food aspect of the American churches. I might want to get in contact with the people in the parish, but I'm afraid that they'd turn out to be more conservative (I can't say less progressive, since I'm not) w/r/t muslims, gays, abortion, artificial insemination, stem cells and growing potatoes in the ISS. JcDent fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Sep 23, 2016 |
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Sep 23, 2016 07:18
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Mr Enderby posted:More generally, does anyone know the history of how it was decided that some sacraments (baptism and marriage) transcended denomination, and some didn't. Well, for one thing they take their puppets seriously. You have to have a large statue of SM around your house, and you need to change her dress often, and it has to be fly as all get out. Sowing dresses and embroidering them with gems and stuff is a major occupation in Mexico City.
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Sep 23, 2016 07:50
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JcDent posted:I'm kind of jealous of the social/free food aspect of the American churches. Hmm, is it generally true across Europe that church isn't a big social affair with food and such? I guess that would surprise me. At least in American Protestantism, church can easily take up half of your Sunday between Sunday School, the actual service, and fellowship (coffee and very often potluck lunch). The potluck wasn't necessarily totally free, sometimes you were asked to chip in a couple bucks but it was a very cheap meal. In fact I can't think of an American church service I've attended that hasn't been followed by lunch, and that includes the few Orthodox Divine Liturgies I went to at HEY GAL's church. In the rural Midwest where I grew up, church was the major social gathering for most people, since that's about the only time you would see a lot of each other. That and school events, possibly family reunions because more than half your neighbors are your second cousins lol.
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Sep 23, 2016 08:42
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Pellisworth posted:Hmm, is it generally true across Europe that church isn't a big social affair with food and such? I guess that would surprise me. in Scandinavia it's made a kind of resurgence, because membership and attendance is dropping sharply. "Spaghetti services" for teens, for example, are everywhere and seen as integral to Danish protestantism. Pellisworth posted:In the rural Midwest where I grew up, church was the major social gathering for most people, since that's about the only time you would see a lot of each other. That and school events, possibly family reunions because more than half your neighbors are your second cousins lol. Yeah, here church is mostly used for the major breaks in life( weddings, funerals, baptisms), only the elderly and dwindling numbers of new christians attend church social events. Tias fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Sep 23, 2016 |
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Sep 23, 2016 08:48
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If there was (medium-to-good) pasta after the service, I'd attend so much harder. I fukken love pasta. I'm also kinda fat, so my AV can be misleading.
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Sep 23, 2016 08:54
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Pellisworth posted:Hmm, is it generally true across Europe that church isn't a big social affair with food and such? I guess that would surprise me. My parish in Vienna offered a Pfarrcafé most Sundays where various groups within the parish like the altar servers, Caritas etc. would offer self-made food and coffee for a price. I did the Pfarrcafé for one of the best-attended services throughout the year (the admission of new altar servers) for four years in a row and at the end we had like 550€ or something. We never managed to spend it I've got very fond memories of sitting around with friends after Mass until far into the afternoon and spend the hours away merrily bullshitting. Sadly the parish of my hometown where I'm back now doesn't have this
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Sep 23, 2016 08:55
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System Metternich posted:It's much older, too, most of those Spanish confraternities (hermandades or cofradías)
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Sep 23, 2016 09:02
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JcDent posted:If there was (medium-to-good) pasta after the service, I'd attend so much harder. I fukken love pasta. We're Danish, we don't do medium-to-good pasta
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Sep 23, 2016 09:07
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pasta by white people is all terrible if you want to learn how to make good pasta i will teach you people
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Sep 23, 2016 09:11
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HEY GAL posted:for the record, i have never heard the first word, always only the second That's because originally there was a distinction between confraternities that were open to everybody (hermandad and confraternities that were organised along professional lines, i.e. only bakers or shoemakers or whatever (cofradía). This sort of professional corporation doesn't exist anymore, and at least in Spain the two terms are used pretty much interchangeably afaik. Maybe it's different for former Spanish colonies? Fun fact: In 1585 there were 300 indigenous confraternities in Mexico City alone, not even counting those confraternities in which the Spanish upper class was organised
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Sep 23, 2016 09:28
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HEY GAL posted:pasta by white people is all terrible teach us
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Sep 23, 2016 09:44
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Tias posted:teach us -->take it to a rolling boil, a very intense boil -->put pasta in -->keep stirring it, make sure it doesn't stick together -->taste it frequently -->when it is mostly cooked but (this is the important bit) still has a tiny bit in the middle where it isn't done yet then it is ready. you should probably even stop it cooking slightly before this point because it will keep cooking in the hot water on your way to the sink to drain it -->drain it -->serve immediately -->different shapes of pasta go with different kinds of sauce, too.
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Sep 23, 2016 09:50
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At which part do I bring out the pike block?
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Sep 23, 2016 10:01
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Pellisworth posted:In the rural Midwest where I grew up, church was the major social gathering for most people, since that's about the only time you would see a lot of each other. That and school events, possibly family reunions because more than half your neighbors are your second cousins lol.
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Sep 23, 2016 10:11
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HEY GAL posted:JcDent, one of the reasons this is different for y'all might be because Pellisworth is from a region that is goddamn huge and has almost no people in it. Church might be one of the few occasions there's enough of them in one place for people to hang out. Probably. My aunt lives out on the country, and at least back when she was in her 40'ies church was the one social event in the local village, so she attended even though she is (and was) an atheist. I doubt rural Denmark is as sparsely populated as the Midwest, though.
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Sep 23, 2016 10:22
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Pellisworth posted:Hmm, is it generally true across Europe that church isn't a big social affair with food and such? I guess that would surprise me. There might be coffee afterwards sometimes if there's a visitor to the parish, like a missionary or something. Or some breakfast oatmeal if it's a family service. Might be different in some places but I'd say that's the rule of thumb in Finland. You come, you sit and chant, you maybe receive the Eucharist, you leave. It's likely you speak to no one and that's not because of Finnish stereotypes. It sucks big time.
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Sep 23, 2016 12:21
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