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Accretionist
Nov 7, 2012
I BELIEVE IN STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORIES
I sit on a towel and change/shower at home. :smith:


WampaLord posted:

Are you kidding? Maybe you have a point with movies, in that we seem to have moved past the bodybuilder action heroes of the 80s/90s, but video games have majorly muscular dudes.

The Batman games, God of War, Gears of War, any fighting game, etc.

Those games target adolescent male power fantasies, and what fulfills those seem like kind of their own thing.

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The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

ultrachrist posted:

Maybe this is a stupid question, but where do you change in gyms if not out in the open? Every gym I've ever been in was dudes changing out in the open. The showers were open in cheap places but you'd get stalls in more expensive ones. Younger guys generally just turn towards their locker and change but old men will just wander about talking to eachother in the nude. Generally a towel or nothing in the sauna, which was again mostly old dudes.

It's no naked swimming, but gyms have always seemed to me a place where its societally acceptable to be naked around strangers (of the same sex).

before i transitioned, i cowered in a corner behind the locker door while i changed. now i dont go to the gym at all because no gym here would guarantee my safety if someone took issue with my anatomy. ive never been to a gym that didnt have communal locker rooms, but it always seemed to me that the ppl who strutted around naked in them were always considered to be weirdos.

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

Seriouspost: Americans are terrified of nudity because they have nice underwear. The situation in the first world is exactly the opposite:



I'll take nudity over this any day of the week.

Morroque
Mar 6, 2013
As part of my schooling, I had to use public changing rooms with the risk of nudity around the same sex in two different scenarios, and the attitudes among the students in each case varied wildly.

The first example was in a something roughly analogous to summer camp. We had "pool days" where our class/group would go swimming. Ages up to 12 or 13. We used a same-sex public changing room that didn't really have any privacy at all to it, but nobody really minded it. We didn't care if we saw eachother naked, partly because we were all half-naked in the pool for up to two hours already. This applied even to the older boys who were 12 and 13 who were at the start of puberty and were a little more vain because of it. The atmosphere was very unstructured and we never had any planned activities; it was just "go swimming now." So we swam. Being naked in that context was just never a big deal.

Hardly two years later, the next changing room experience for high school gym class was starkly different. Part of it was the teacher, who basically ran us all into the ground under his weird pseudo-army-drill mentality. However, unlike an actual army drill where the artificial harshness was meant to build up a well-functioning team, his route was strictly competitive. We were constantly pitted against each other in gym class, and we had our marks on the line. Among the kids who were naturally less athletic as it was and were only in it to get the one PE credit, it was basically Hell. There were some vague mentions about physical fitness and self-improvement, but it rang hollow when the most of what we did were head-to-head competitive games where some people would do better as a matter of course and other people would always lose, and even further yet when the strict teacher would constantly yell at and berate the ones lagging behind making already-inadequate people feel even further inadequate. The Darwinian atmosphere was a constant weave of resentment. I think the class might have turned some people off from physical fitness entirely simply because of the competitive atmosphere that they could not opt out from. (Leaving high school and just having a gym membership was a great change of pace, in each sense of the phrase.)

To go from that into a changing room at the end of the period was this super weird thing. We had to undress and be momentarily vulnerable in a hyper-competitive atmosphere where bullying was openly encouraged. We were all in constant competition against each other and to undress in that context was to be an act of letting your guard down in a place where your mind is telling you be on constant alert and to not trust anyone. Many of us resented the idea of being required to undress in this context, and the fact that the teachers demanded this be considered normal was a kind systematic hypocrisy built into the very structure of the school itself.

I imagine the hyper-competitive nature of American society is probably one affect in why nudity is considered taboo. The problem is overdetermined, but this is just one aspect I've been able to notice.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

Jerry Cotton posted:

Seriouspost: Americans are terrified of nudity because they have nice underwear. The situation in the first world is exactly the opposite:



I'll take nudity over this any day of the week.
Finland is not part of the First World.

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Finland is not part of the First World.

Come to my ger and say that to my horde, pal.

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

Edit: Thanks, AWFUL.

3D Megadoodoo fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Oct 21, 2016

Kopijeger
Feb 14, 2010

Jerry Cotton posted:

Come to my ger and say that to my horde, pal.

"Ger"? That's a funny way to spell goathi.

Cat Mattress
Jul 14, 2012

by Cyrano4747

Jerry Cotton posted:

Come to my ger and say that to my horde, pal.

Sorry but it's true. Also not in the First World: Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Ireland.

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

Cat Mattress posted:

Sorry but it's true. Also not in the First World: Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Ireland.

Well yes Ireland is basically wasteland. No human habitation.

A Pale Horse
Jul 29, 2007

Cat Mattress posted:

Sorry but it's true. Also not in the First World: Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Ireland.

First world doesn't mean NATO members, it never did really. Every country in NATO was in the first world but so were Japan, South Korea, Australia and Israel. Plus all the places you listed. It was basically anyone the U.S. liked or considered an ally. Anyway, its a meaningless term nowadays though people still like to use it I guess.

vintagepurple
Jan 31, 2014

by Nyc_Tattoo
Speaking as a bi dude with BDD and recovering from bulemia who has networked with the same, people like Brad Pitt in Fight Club, Ryan Gosling, or even loving Nev from Catfish or Barack Obama are the sort of ideal male bodies society is pushing. Male body issues are way more about lean vs. chub than muscles. The discussion has moved on a bit but holy laffo @ presenting Pitt-in-his-prime as, in any way, unconventially attractive or something guys don't want to be.

FWIW, while I absolutely agree that women have far more pressure placed on them to look conventionally attractive, for males with body issues there is frustratingly little support. Almost everything discussing bulemia is aimed at young women, and even seeking help is often met with "you're a guy, you can be weird looking, no one cares." True, maybe, but not much support for young males who feel inadequate and end up binging and purging.

Being huge and buff is presented as cool, manly, badass, whatever, I'll concede, but in terms of "men people want to gently caress" it's all tall, tight, lean dudes with abs but also ribs, not Arnies. Speaking of, god help you if you're a guy with body issues who is also short.

vintagepurple fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Oct 21, 2016

Owlofcreamcheese
May 22, 2005
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!
Buglord

vintagepurple posted:

Being huge and buff is presented as cool, manly, badass, whatever, I'll concede, but in terms of "men people want to gently caress" it's all tall, tight, lean dudes with abs but also ribs, not Arnies.

Wasn't that the exact original point? That in media girls are the girl's men want to gently caress and men are the men men want to be.

If a movie wants a cool male badass they get a cool badass looking dude but if they want a badass women they hire a supermodel.

vintagepurple
Jan 31, 2014

by Nyc_Tattoo

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

Wasn't that the exact original point? That in media girls are the girl's men want to gently caress and men are the men men want to be.

If a movie wants a cool male badass they get a cool badass looking dude but if they want a badass women they hire a supermodel.

What men would actually choose to be a Gears of War megahulk instead of Ryan Gosling? What's the ratio of Mr. Olympias:Ryan Goslings in terms of leading men?

For drat near 30 years the ideal dude has been someone people want to gently caress. Male gaze is a real thing and a problem but in TYOOL 2016 men in media are absolutely more eye candy than power fantasy-- even poo poo like 300 and Marvel movies cast dudes who are at most halfway between Rambo and Tyler Durden.

vintagepurple fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Oct 21, 2016

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames
Salad Prong

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

Wasn't that the exact original point? That in media girls are the girl's men want to gently caress and men are the men men want to be.

If a movie wants a cool male badass they get a cool badass looking dude but if they want a badass women they hire a supermodel.

But the "badass looking dude" usually isn't some musclebound Arnold in his prime, but something more like:

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe
Both Ryan Gosling and Brad Pitt in Fight Club would be freakishly bulky and defined by the standards of previous generations.

vintagepurple
Jan 31, 2014

by Nyc_Tattoo

woke wedding drone posted:

Both Ryan Gosling and Brad Pitt in Fight Club would be freakishly bulky and defined by the standards of previous generations.

If "previous generations" only goes as far back as early modern europeans

Like conquistadors wrote of 1500s natives "woah, dudes are toned and beautiful"

Owlofcreamcheese
May 22, 2005
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!
Buglord

fishmech posted:

But the "badass looking dude" usually isn't some musclebound Arnold in his prime, but something more like:

The other part of it is simply that men are allowed a far far wider range of body types in film because men are people who have character traits in film while being a woman is seen as a character trait. So even with trends you can find virtually any male body type cast in virtually any sort of role while women have maybe 3 body types total and they are all variations on like 2 regardless of role.

Beowulfs_Ghost
Nov 6, 2009

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

Wasn't that the exact original point? That in media girls are the girl's men want to gently caress and men are the men men want to be.

If a movie wants a cool male badass they get a cool badass looking dude but if they want a badass women they hire a supermodel.

It was kind of the point, but it was a bad one because it is apples to oranges. It is comparing women that men want to gently caress, to men that fullfill juvenile power fantasies.

The whole Arnold thing was a dumb derail in that regard, because there are plenty of examples of movies with men that defeat their enemies and get the girls, and those men tend to look more like James Bond.

call to action
Jun 10, 2016

by FactsAreUseless
It's weird how many women will say they "dress to impress other women", and then turn around and say that having to look good is an effect of patriarchy

reignonyourparade
Nov 15, 2012
It only seems weird to you because you misunderstand the concept of the patriarchy. In fairness, its not really the most clear name for the concept. Women enforcing gender roles on each other is still the patriarchy.

vintagepurple
Jan 31, 2014

by Nyc_Tattoo
Men who star in modern action and drama films that are not "tall and lean but fit" and would not be generally considered fuckable by anyone into loving men:

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames
Salad Prong

vintagepurple posted:

Men who star in modern action and drama films that are not "tall and lean but fit" and would not be generally considered fuckable by anyone into loving men:



Most people don't want to gently caress this weird looking dude but drat if he isn't constantly in dramas anyway.

litany of gulps
Jun 11, 2001

Fun Shoe

fishmech posted:

Most people don't want to gently caress this weird looking dude but drat if he isn't constantly in dramas anyway.

Man, you should hear some of the girls I know. He is definitely weird looking, but I wouldn't underrate how attractive people find him despite that.

Owlofcreamcheese
May 22, 2005
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!
Buglord

call to action posted:

It's weird how many women will say they "dress to impress other women", and then turn around and say that having to look good is an effect of patriarchy

Why is that weird. Oppressed groups often are the harshest self policers because punishments are often collective.

Accretionist
Nov 7, 2012
I BELIEVE IN STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORIES

call to action posted:

It's weird how many women will say they "dress to impress other women", and then turn around and say that having to look good is an effect of patriarchy

I think that's a levels of analysis thing like...

Society: Male-dominance warps cultural norms.

Individual: Sarah wants to look like she has her poo poo together and be respected by her peers so she's trying to be good at cultural norms.

shame on an IGA
Apr 8, 2005

fishmech posted:



Most people don't want to gently caress this weird looking dude but drat if he isn't constantly in dramas anyway.

Why can't you be happy that Barnacle Jim finally found his place in the world

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Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011

Muldoon

fishmech posted:



Most people don't want to gently caress this weird looking dude but drat if he isn't constantly in dramas anyway.

Have you seen the dude act? He's handsome as h*ck when he's actually talking.

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