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 This is the Russian thread, if you are on the allied team don't read this thread! If you are an observer, please post in the open thread and not in here. RUSSIAN SPREADSHEET HERE: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1k-d6mtH8Ln1EMBSg-UNs6QntbevMiPRXV2THc4kqJQU/edit?usp=sharing  Greetings, commanders. The official invasion of Ukraine has been ongoing for the past week and we've made impressive gains. To recap:  We are operating in Northern Ukraine, until recently a quiet front.  Despite the build-up of NATO forces in the area, they were evidently unprepared for an official Russian entrance into the conflict and units close to the border were destroyed outright. Resistance has stiffened considerably since then, but we are now closing from three sides on the city of Krolevets, which sits on the road to Kiev. There are still considerable NATO and Ukrainian forces East of the city, and their main route of retreat is along the highway.  Our lead element, the 20th Motor Rifle Brigade, has reached the outskirts of town. Most of the force has been caught up in skirmishing on routes into the city, but the 1st Battalion has been detached to secure the highway and close the pocket on the trapped allied forces.  Your mission is to close the gap. Friendly units to our south-east have been pursing allied units towards the highway, estimated to be roughly a battalion's worth of mixed American and Ukrainian units desperately trying to make their way to friendly lines. We must deny them the use of the highway and destroy as many military assets as we can. Our ultimate objective is capturing the village of Bystryk on the opposite side of the highway in order to secure our own supply line while denying its use to the enemy. Should resistance prove too great, focus on continued denial of the highway to ensure no enemy units escape to Krolevets as well as the destruction of precious enemy assets. Reserve units are rushing to relieve the rest of the 20th Motor Rifles on the outskirts of the city and elements of 2nd Battalion will be joining you within the hour to help secure this strategically vital sector. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCkaSLGLcIc  Welcome to REDFOR, everyone. My intent is for the LP to be a bit more free-form than previous iterations. We're not going to play this like an actual game of combat mission where on-map objectives and other assigned parameters award points to the players. This is not a quick-battle with auto-generated objectives and pre-determined causality parameters for points, it is a scenario that I've put together from a custom map made by H1nd on the Battlefront forums. Because it is a scenario, I can control every single aspect of the battle, and as a result there is not one single victory point to be gained. Both sides have strategic objectives that they are trying to accomplish, and that are hopefully somewhat open ended. Achieving these objectives can be done in any way the players think of, and whenever the battle comes to an end I'll do a write-up and video going over the outcome and consequences of the battle. This is all done so that (hopefully) this game won't end when one side starts feeling discouraged about their chances of sitting on an objective zone and feels that continuing to play is pointless. Playing to the end is the point this time around!  Let's talk mechanics. For anyone completely unfamiliar with game mechanics but who wants to know which buttons they have the option of pushing, I will direct you to Grey Hunter's original Black Sea thread where he does an excellent rundown of the ui: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3747124 If anyone has any specific questions about how the game is actually played or the specific functions that are available to certain units, just ask and I or someone with the game will be happy to help. But, I don't want mechanics to be the focus of this game. I'll be the one playing it, you'll be the ones directing it. My philosophy going in is that it shouldn't necessarily matter if you very specifically arrange your orders into "MOVE to x and TARGET BRIEFLY (30 SECONDS) y" as long as you provide a map with your orders. You also shouldn't be worrying about which specific tile of the map your mans will be moving to, again, as long as there is a map. If the general placement of your units as well as your intent for what they should be doing is clear, I'll try my best to put them in the most reasonable position according to what you've posted. Be specific and unambiguous in your orders, and always include a map, and I'm optimistic this can help cut down on tedium for players. If it's a horrible failure than we'll try something else, but for now that's my plan. Good orders: quote:
Bad orders: quote:
Force Composition A link to a more specific order of battle for sign-ups can be located here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1k-d6mtH8Ln1EMBSg-UNs6QntbevMiPRXV2THc4kqJQU/edit?usp=sharing Fill that out to claim your actual unit, which will have the additional benefit of letting me know who's made it over to this thread. You will be in command of a Russian Tactical Group, which is a battalion sized element combining motorized infantry and armour. I'll include in-game screenshots closer to the first turn, but on paper here is what you have to command: Also, for completely clarity, here is your final OOB. The only changes will be whenever your spreadsheet is completely filled out so I can name the rest of your commanders.        Reinforcements:   The support command was included so that there was a player besides the battalion commander to organize and deploy all these various assets. The battalion support platoons may be subordinated under any of the infantry companies or remain under the direct supervision of the battalion commander. I think that should about do it for now. If you're unclear on anything just say so and I'll try and work it out. The actual game map will get posted in a few days, for now work with what you have! Additions: In game map:  http://community.battlefront.com/topic/122997-chernova-hirka-master-map-10-released/ Conditions: 
Generation Internet fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 10:51
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So from previous experiences a little that I do know is that against American armour on a 1 vs 1 fight our T-90 battle tanks will lose however, with the enemy armour likely being Ukrainian they could have either other Russian era tanks or perhaps lesser tech American battle tanks. Either way getting the first sight on and out maneuvering the enemy tanks will likely be key. Using tanks as a stationary pill box sort of emplacement seems to get them killed sooner or later. Second our BTR and other transports are very very explosive on death, a mistake me made last time was having them run right up to the front to disembark our troops inside. When the vehicles were destroyed they pretty much wiped out any squad around them. I suggest when we do use them to locate an area near to where we want our infantry to end up and disembark our infantry short of that location have them move forward and then have the BTR hang back and provide fire support I don't think we need the vehicles on top of our infantry positions. If anyone wants I can draw up something quick in paint to help explain what I mean if anyone wants me to?
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Sep 30, 2016 12:09
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koolkevz666 posted:Second our BTR and other transports are very very explosive on death, a mistake me made last time was having them run right up to the front to disembark our troops inside. When the vehicles were destroyed they pretty much wiped out any squad around them. I suggest when we do use them to locate an area near to where we want our infantry to end up and disembark our infantry short of that location have them move forward and then have the BTR hang back and provide fire support I don't think we need the vehicles on top of our infantry positions. If anyone wants I can draw up something quick in paint to help explain what I mean if anyone wants me to? As a matter of accuracy, in the last Black Sea game the Russians came with BMP-3s, which are different than BTR-82s and packed with considerably more high-explosive ammo. Also, here's a link to the actual terrain you'll be fighting over for the initial stages of planning: https://goo.gl/maps/qdPPTWPLYMB2
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Sep 30, 2016 12:40
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If we utilize Soviet Motor Rofle tactics we will win. Ill write up something later today. I've got some good sources compiled, complete with illustrations Phi230 fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 13:22
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No murderchopper, huh? What's in the air defense group?
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Sep 30, 2016 14:44
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Gamerofthegame posted:No murderchopper, huh? What's in the air defense group?  1 Man Igla teams, each with a bunch of reloads. I think there may also be extra ammo in their BTRs?
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Sep 30, 2016 14:53
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Correct, the BTRs do carry extra ammo. Not sure how AA works in the Combat Mission series though, even though I have all the games.
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Sep 30, 2016 15:12
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AA is still an abstracted dice roll I believe.
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Sep 30, 2016 15:27
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Does the BTR have IR vision? Looks like it has night vision only. Also, is this encounter happening at night or during the day? Hope we can get a contour map, looks wide open so sight lines will probably be super important.
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Sep 30, 2016 15:32
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What's the map name so us owners can start surveying? I was going to link the manual but it's an attachment on their forums requiring you to be logged in.
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Sep 30, 2016 15:37
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The BTR-82 has the upgraded stabilized night vision sight but no IR, I believe. 14.5mm machine gun rather than the autocannon on the 82A. e: The manual says it has the TKN-4GA sight, which I think means thermal combined sight in Russian... glynnenstein fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 15:47
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Here's the manual: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7u7PdSjD7PQelVoSEwyczI0ZDA Please review the units you're commanding if you're not familiar with Black Sea. The BTR-82 is pretty much just an APC. The only armaments are a pair of machine guns. It's a way to get infantry somewhere fast and carry extra ammo for them, but little else. The best tank in the Ukrainian arsenal is the T-84 Oplot, which is no Abrams but still pretty modern. I think they have a high rarity value though, so hopefully we're only contending with T-72s.
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Sep 30, 2016 16:06
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Fray posted:Here's the manual: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7u7PdSjD7PQelVoSEwyczI0ZDA In gameplay terms, even an Oplot is vastly inferior to things even as old as T-80UMs, let alone the T-90/90A. An Oplot is an export T-80 with some modern systems and ERA/APS. Inferior potassium. I highly doubt we will be facing Abrams. We will be fighting modernized T-64s and T-80s. It is quite important we engage this from standoff range of our tanks. I suggest we detach the armor to form their own Bronegruppa, and provide overwatch/flank support for the Motor Rifles rather than have our boys gather around them WW2 style. The inverse to this is that I feel we should adhere to the traditional Motor Rifle doctrine, of course, we need the map and then we can BS about it. Phi230 fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 16:32
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Holy shamoley, I'm responsible for all of that?! I thought "support platoon" meant, like, a mortar battery or something!
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Sep 30, 2016 16:35
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Davin Valkri posted:Holy shamoley, I'm responsible for all of that?! I thought "support platoon" meant, like, a mortar battery or something! Your job is honestly extremely important to our mission. For some context, SOviets loved support. They would always precisely calculate the amount of support required for an objective. Essentially, in an ideal world, you would post up next to Bttn. Commander, like within earshot, and he would relay firemissions or airstrikes to you, and you would, within line of sight, direct those support missions for him rather than having him calling in the support. Russians very much wanted people qualified for support missions to be in charge of support missions. Now, practically, your job is basically stay alive and within LOS of crucial objective zones. Since we live in the age of literally everyone has a radio, proximity to Bttn. Command is not as important anymore. Gen Internet, what is the EW level we are playing it? If at all?
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Sep 30, 2016 16:39
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I motion to use our patent pending Human Wave tactic.
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Sep 30, 2016 16:41
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Dark_Swordmaster posted:I motion to use our patent pending Human Wave tactic. Motion denied! Take him out back and shoot him!
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Sep 30, 2016 16:42
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Look at what you people made me do. Now I can discover the horrible fate my platoon will experience on a daily basis.
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Sep 30, 2016 16:46
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Generation Internet posted:As a matter of accuracy, in the last Black Sea game the Russians came with BMP-3s, which are different than BTR-82s and packed with considerably more high-explosive ammo. here's a fairly high-res version of the area if anyone wants it to draw on: 
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Sep 30, 2016 16:56
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Hubis posted:here's a fairly high-res version of the area if anyone wants it to draw on: Is this area representative of the map?
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Sep 30, 2016 17:08
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Hubis posted:here's a fairly high-res version of the area if anyone wants it to draw on: Okay. 
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Sep 30, 2016 17:26
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Davin Valkri posted:Holy shamoley, I'm responsible for all of that?! I thought "support platoon" meant, like, a mortar battery or something! I realize it's a ton, but I didn't really think it would be worthwhile to break out all those units into individual commands. How I envisioned it is that you're essentially the support coordinator. The support units can be placed directly under the command of any of the companies if you want to delegate some responsibility, but you're still the one who has to keep track of who's playing with the battalion's toys. If that's too much feel free to switch up the OOB as much as you want so you don't feel overwhelmed! Phi230 posted:Gen Internet, what is the EW level we are playing it? If at all? None. I thought about it, but I figured that would just remove a bunch of the aspects that differentiate Black Sea from the WWII games. Dark_Swordmaster posted:What's the map name so us owners can start surveying? Phi230 posted:Is this area representative of the map? http://community.battlefront.com/topic/122997-chernova-hirka-master-map-10-released/
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Sep 30, 2016 20:42
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Generation Internet posted:I realize it's a ton, but I didn't really think it would be worthwhile to break out all those units into individual commands. How I envisioned it is that you're essentially the support coordinator. The support units can be placed directly under the command of any of the companies if you want to delegate some responsibility, but you're still the one who has to keep track of who's playing with the battalion's toys. Eh, I think I'll be okay. The only parts I need to command directly are the mortar batteries and maaaaaaybe any elements tied directly to artillery--the rest can be portioned out to rifle companies when the plan takes shape--if a company gets assigned to take the village on the other side of the highway, it's getting the engineers for sure.
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Sep 30, 2016 21:19
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It is highly inadvisable to use normal inf to call in support in combat mission
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Sep 30, 2016 21:30
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I'll be at work for the next five or six hours, and I won't get much of a chance to get caught up with the thread/watch the videos before then (for reference, I work during the weekdays PST, so I won't be able to post very much during those hours). I'll post a spreadsheet and create a roll20 tonight in order to get us organized, as well as try to run my contour map script on this map. Some questions for GI in the meantime: Just to confirm, the recon platoon here is DecoyBadger's, and the rest of these units are under Davin's control?  What kind of ATGMs do we have? Is the infantry is armed with AK-74s? Do they have PKMs? Do they have RPG-7s or RPG26/22? If so, how many?
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Sep 30, 2016 22:02
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One man in a typical squad has an RPG 7 with various warheads. Several others have RPG 26s, one guy has a PKM. One GP-25 or two as well. The standard ATGM is the Metis aka AT-13
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Sep 30, 2016 22:06
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abelian posted:I'll be at work for the next five or six hours, and I won't get much of a chance to get caught up with the thread/watch the videos before then (for reference, I work during the weekdays PST, so I won't be able to post very much during those hours). Yep, with the addition that Davin also has the mortars. You can fiddle with the OOB as much or as little as you like when it comes to the battalion support assets, though. Battalion ATGM is AT-14, company ATGM is AT-13 Standard infantry squad of 7 comes with AK-74s, PKP, SVD, RPG-7 and RPG-26 each with reloads.
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Sep 30, 2016 22:13
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Boy do those Ukrainians love their swamps. At least that stream system on the west side gives the infantry a tank-free access route.
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Sep 30, 2016 22:18
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Generation Internet posted:Yep, with the addition that Davin also has the mortars. You can fiddle with the OOB as much or as little as you like when it comes to the battalion support assets, though. Excellent. PKPs will give our infantry a nice ability to reach out and touch. The Ukrops and Americosy won't have much in the way of 7.62 My biggest worry for our vehicles will be the Javelins. Those things are hard to spot, highly mobile, have basically no setup/aim time, almost never miss, and if they hit they kill.
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Sep 30, 2016 22:51
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Javs also wipe out squads at a time
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Sep 30, 2016 23:01
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Phi230 posted:Javs also wipe out squads at a time Really, in combat mission? I've never seen soldiers fire them at anything besides vehicles or bunkers.
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Sep 30, 2016 23:04
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abelian posted:Really, in combat mission? I've never seen soldiers fire them at anything besides vehicles or bunkers. You have to manually target an infantryman with your Jav operator. If they are grouped even moderately close, goodbye squad. Normal, even spacing means goodbye like 3 guys, and it annihilates morale + pins down all guys in the area for a while.
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Sep 30, 2016 23:30
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Has our BattCO come in yet? Do we have any suggestions on how we want to approach this? At the moment, I think some people said "Approach crossroads from western swamps, set up blockers around crossroads, use crossroads as base of fire to support assault on Bystryk from forest area on southernmost edge of map". That's kinda loosey goosey, though.
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Sep 30, 2016 23:33
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Davin Valkri posted:Has our BattCO come in yet? Do we have any suggestions on how we want to approach this? At the moment, I think some people said "Approach crossroads from western swamps, set up blockers around crossroads, use crossroads as base of fire to support assault on Bystryk from forest area on southernmost edge of map". That's kinda loosey goosey, though. Sorry, I've been at work (or asleep) the whole time this thread had been alive  . I haven't had a chance to look over anything in detail yet or begin to asses the tactical situation. I'll set up some stuff to get us organized when I get a few minutes. But don't let that stop you guys from throwing around ideas; the more discussion the better.Phi230 posted:You have to manually target an infantryman with your Jav operator. If they are grouped even moderately close, goodbye squad. Normal, even spacing means goodbye like 3 guys, and it annihilates morale + pins down all guys in the area for a while. TIL. Presumably this only happens if the enemy squad is outside rifle range? Since Jav operators are usually rifle squads...
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Sep 30, 2016 23:42
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Sup guys, signed up as a replacement and general dude here in the thread.
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Sep 30, 2016 23:58
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abelian posted:Sorry, I've been at work (or asleep) the whole time this thread had been alive Nope, as long as its within the Javelin's minimum range. I use Javelins in close quarters regularly. The Target command makes each soldier use their heaviest weapon against the target so you'll have dudes pull out their AT-4s too.
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Sep 30, 2016 23:59
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Davin Valkri posted:Has our BattCO come in yet? Do we have any suggestions on how we want to approach this? At the moment, I think some people said "Approach crossroads from western swamps, set up blockers around crossroads, use crossroads as base of fire to support assault on Bystryk from forest area on southernmost edge of map". That's kinda loosey goosey, though. Tactically we should advance on defensible positions with infantry disembarked on foot, with IFVs following ~400 meters behind. It is the True Path We can apply these stock Motor Rifle tactics to areas with as little frontage as 500 meters. Ideally, we must ALWAYS use a Company as the basic unit of attack. One platoon makes contact and suppresses the enemy position with the Bronegruppa (IFVs acting as autonomous unit) while two platoons move to the left and right flank to establish assault positions. Upon assault, all three infantry platoons converge on the target with fire support from the IFVs Phi230 fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Oct 1, 2016 |
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Oct 1, 2016 00:00
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Phi230 posted:Tactically we should advance on defensible positions with infantry disembarked on foot, with IFVs following ~400 meters behind. It is the True Path For those who have had a chance to look at the terrain in detail... how far from our starting area to good support by fire positions against the highway crossing? Are there covered avenues of approach to said positions? Phi230 posted:Nope, as long as its within the Javelin's minimum range. I use Javelins in close quarters regularly. The Target command makes each soldier use their heaviest weapon against the target so you'll have dudes pull out their AT-4s too. I swear they would never do this in shock force. Well, that gives us extra reason to spread out then.
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Oct 1, 2016 00:44
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The road that cuts from NW to SE has tons of open LOS the whole length of the map after it straightens out. Same for the stuff to the East of that road in the open fields. There is minimal terrain relief and even where there is, Blufor has some overwatch heights that might be able to reach fairly fast. There are ways for vehicles to move throughout the cuts in the woods on both the East and West side of the map, but they constrict to narrow chokepoints at swampy areas in a few spots. In particular, a quick glance shows an early crossing of the swamp near our deployment but after that we can move throughout the cuts through the woods in the Western side of the map. There is also a lot of terrain relief that way. Basic first impression from a rushed look: Blufor has better initial overwatch positions of the Eastern and center of the map that they can reach fairly fast. We have places to maneuver on both flanks but more concealment on the Western side. In both cases we will have to be wary of support fire, and drone overwatch at select chokepoints. The center and immediate center East of the map has opportunities for long range ATGM and tank fire.
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Oct 1, 2016 00:57
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abelian posted:For those who have had a chance to look at the terrain in detail... how far from our starting area to good support by fire positions against the highway crossing? Are there covered avenues of approach to said positions? Doctrinally, we would disembark our infantry anywhere from 600m-800m away from the actual objective. In my opinion, we should not attach our tanks to the Motor Rifles and use them autonomously. I look to my Command and my peers for concurrence. Lest we do this: | \ | where the \ is infantry, and | is armor/IFV. Our spearhead would be armor, with infantry, then IFV's behind.
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Oct 1, 2016 01:04
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