|
I know there are probably some other threads in here about this, but I'm not going to try and find them. I did that before and found that most of the threads here are boring as hell. It's like going to a comic book store because you're wondering why Ice Man is never in a movie. Anyway, my question is why do lots of people hate Hillary Clinton so much? I never even considered it before 2008, when this crazy woman in my office went off on me about her when I expressed my dislike of GW Bush. I told her that either of my dogs would be a better president than Bush and all she would say was "BUT YOU WOULD HAVE HILLARY!!!??!!!" (I am not exaggerating the caps or the exclamation points) Do people hate the idea of a woman president so much that they would pick anyone else? Am I missing something?
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 04:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 14:50 |
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EGranwN_uk
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 04:59
|
|
|
ok thanks for the video man but what about my question
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:01
|
|
|
I think Hillary hits like 4 or 5 buttons that woman haters just can't deal with.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:04
|
|
|
Hillary Clinton has been an assault on traditional ideas of femininity since the late 70s. She was a working lawyer who kept her maiden name as governor's wife, and radically changed the perception of the office of first lady. She also is part of a two decade smear campaign by the GOP towards her husband Finally, she is simply not a very warm or emotive person. She is clearly a bit stand-offish and cold and because she is a woman people find it unbecoming
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:05
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:Finally, she is simply not a very warm or emotive person. She is clearly a bit stand-offish and cold and because she is a woman people find it unbecoming sounds like you're kind of a dick
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:07
|
|
|
gnarlyhotep posted:sounds like you're kind of a dick I am not sure why you say that. Misogynistic stereotypes of femininity require women to be meek and warm and submissive. Clinton is stern and a bit cold. It's not a problem with her character, because that is exactly as a president should be. However, you cannot challenge gender roles like that and not receive push back from traditionalists.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:09
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:I am not sure why you say that. Misogynistic stereotypes of femininity require women to be meek and warm and submissive. Clinton is stern and a bit cold. It's not a problem with her character, because that is exactly as a president should be. However, you cannot challenge gender roles like that and not receive push back from traditionalists. Ah, I get it now. Sorry for the dick comment.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:10
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZF1SJW7JFw
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:13
|
|
|
gnarlyhotep posted:It's like going to a comic book store because you're wondering why Ice Man is never in a movie. Iceman was in the first four X-Men films. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceman_(comics)#Film Edit: technically 1, 2, 3 and 5 since number 4 was first class.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:15
|
|
|
God of Evil Cows posted:Iceman was in the first four X-Men films. and here I was wondering why I never post here
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:15
|
|
|
I worry about over-generalizing but really I think a vast majority of it comes from gender. Like one of the biggest criticisms people seem to have of her is that she is a single-minded careerist who will do anything to get ahead. If she were a man, people would just say she was ambitious. Hillary Clinton represents one of the realest pushes against gender roles in modern society, and of course people are going to hate that. poo poo bro, you were a GBS mod, you have seen first hand how some people act about politically motivated women. Compare the public persona of Hillary Clinton to every other first lady, and you will see why she gets so much negative feedback.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:17
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:I worry about over-generalizing but really I think a vast majority of it comes from gender. I'm sorry to disapoint you but being a GBS mod doesn't make you a political expert. Your statement "Compare the public persona of Hillary Clinton to every other first lady" might as well be "Calculate the number Pi to 50 digits". I don't know, that's why I created the loving thread.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:21
|
|
|
gnarlyhotep posted:and here I was wondering why I never post here I just wanted to point out that your analogy was a bit confusing. To answer your question, my guess is that it has something to do with her being demonized by the GOP on a national level for the last quarter of a century. But maybe it's something else.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:23
|
|
|
gnarlyhotep posted:Your statement "Compare the public persona of Hillary Clinton to every other first lady" might as well be "Calculate the number Pi to 50 digits". Fair enough. This is a good article to let you see how the first lady was viewed when she entered the national stage in 1992 http://qz.com/762881/the-blatantly-sexist-cookie-bake-off-that-has-haunted-hillary-clinton-for-two-decades-is-back/ A highly decorated lawyer was forced to bake cookies for a women's magazine in order to be appealing to the public. Think about how insane that is. Nancy Reagan, Barbara Bush, Laura Bush, and even Michelle Obama to an extent have all been warm feminine maternal figures who did photo ops and smiled with children in the rose garden. Hillary wasn't, and that upset people because of how shocking it was.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:25
|
|
|
I don't hate Hillary, but common leftist criticisms I've heard are: 1. She voted for the Iraq War, and her foreign policy is still rather Hawkish. 2. Her economic policies resemble those of Neoconservatives of yesteryear. 3. She gets tons of money from companies such as Goldman Sachs, making her the avatar of Money in Politics for some. 4. She's considered extremely untrustworthy (<-don't really get this one). There also the assorted poo poo Bill Clinton has done, and people are associating that with her.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:27
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:Fair enough. I honestly had no idea that women were still treated so second-class. drat. Makes John Lennon even more of a prophet than I thought https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl-7-wjQO1k
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:35
|
|
|
Neo_Crimson posted:
#4 is the root of the other two. Like there's no serious way you can justify #2 without saying at some point "well sure she says progressive things but I don't believe her". Hell, it's the root of the Iraq War vote hate as well. Or do you wonder why no one gives Joe Biden poo poo for it?
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:47
|
|
|
computer parts posted:#4 is the root of the other two. Like there's no serious way you can justify #2 without saying at some point "well sure she says progressive things but I don't believe her". All politics is a huge load of bullshit always has been
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:49
|
|
|
Neo_Crimson posted:4. She's considered extremely untrustworthy (<-don't really get this one). A long history of lying to the public probably has something to do with it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:53
|
|
|
J Corp posted:A long history of lying to the public probably has something to do with it. I'm happy that we get some of the crazy ones in here too!
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 05:55
|
|
|
Going by the open sewers that are my local Fox station's facebook feed, the reasons du jour among people who venomously hate her (as in far beyond merely just not liking her that much) seem to be that they can't let go of Benghazi despite a dozen republican-led investigations that spent a few million dollars to come up with nothing, and they can't let go of the email thing, which also came up with basically nothing, and things turning out that way rather than her being in prison for... some reason... makes them really angry.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 06:03
|
|
|
J Corp posted:A long history of lying to the public probably has something to do with it. But probably less than most other public officials so I'm not sure why she stands out for so much hate.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 06:11
|
|
|
part of it is misogyny part of it is inherent accusation of any democrat of being corrupt as a part of partisan politics part of it is distrust of career politicians part of it is the entrenched clinton legacy, which hooks into distrust of career politicians part of it is simple internet enabled delusional outrage part of it is an active smear campaign to attack hillary on her weaknesses, re: all of the above part of it is hillary being the figurehead of a dominant democratic party, really exploiting republican demographic weaknesses in the electoral college to invoke an overwhelming sense of defeat among woke republicans ultimately hillary isn't any more or less trustworthy than any other lifelong politician, for what that's worth boner confessor fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Oct 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 06:20
|
|
|
really though imo the biggest part of it is that hillary clinton is the most prevalent example of a smart, capable woman excelling in a leadership role and millions of americans still struggle with that concept. like, look at how many people hated obama because he's black? as many people hate hillary because she's a woman, except it's more acceptable to be a soft misogynist in america in 2016 than a soft racist
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 06:24
|
|
|
gnarlyhotep posted:I'm happy that we get some of the crazy ones in here too! Is your argument that she hasn't or that it doesn't matter?
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 06:30
|
|
|
raditts posted:Going by the open sewers that are my local Fox station's facebook feed, the reasons du jour among people who venomously hate her (as in far beyond merely just not liking her that much) seem to be that they can't let go of Benghazi despite a dozen republican-led investigations that spent a few million dollars to come up with nothing, and they can't let go of the email thing, which also came up with basically nothing, and things turning out that way rather than her being in prison for... some reason... makes them really angry. There are different reasons people hate her. For example, I've only ever seen right-wing folks bring up Benghazi, and it's pretty obvious that if it wasn't Benghazi or The Emails it would be something else. Most right-wing folks hate Hillary because they strongly disagree with her perceived ideology, and in order to validate themselves and their own identities, they need to have concrete reasons they come up with after the initial emotional response (the phenomena of "emotional reaction" -> "consciously justify reaction" isn't unique to right wingers, just a good example of it in action). She's an especially big target for hatred because she's on the path to become president, just like Obama was (and possibly still is?) the Anti-Christ to a lot of right-wingers.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 06:32
|
|
|
Ambition is not tolerated in women in our society. Simple challenge. Name a movie with a heroine who is openly ambitious, portrayed in a positive light, without being a rape-and-revenge trope, that isn't based on a real woman. Some examples of movies that do not meet this challenge: Hunger Games - Katniss spends the whole series being tricked/used into being a symbol of rebellion. She has no personal goals beyond her own survival. Kill Bill - kiddo is good now because upon becoming pregnant she gave up being an assassin and settled down. Her flashbacks to when she pursued her ambitions were when she was an evil assassin. Erin Bronkovitch - based on a true story. Every royal female character - being born to power and trying to do a good job is not aspiring to it or asserting that you are better suited than others to it. Flashdance - based on a true story. X-men - being born to power isn't aspiring to it. Also the good female mutants are almost never protagonists and constantly have horrible drawbacks to their powers that cause them to mope around all the time whining about wanting to be normal. Black Swan - could have been a Rocky style movie about a woman striving to become an amazing ballerina the way Rocky wanted to become a great fighter ( and the way the star of flashdance did ). But instead she's a nervous wreck being driven to dance to please her shrew of a mother. Ambition in a female character always heralds their status as a villain. Heroes can venture out to "win" a throne - and presumably a hot princess - in our stories but not heroines. If a woman specifically seduces princes they are a heartless evil gold digger. Unlike Heros who can cheerfully take the quest to win the hand of the princess - thereby becoming the next king - without worrying overmuch what the princess thinks about all this. It's incredibly difficult to even find a training montage about a female character. The montage period gave boys a gazillion training montages in everyone from chess to skiing and gave girls makeover montages in which they passively sat there while other people made them pretty. Kill Bill has training montages from flashbacks to evil kiddo. Rape-and-revenge trope chars have them to gain the skills to enact revenge. There are a few "involuntary training" montages where someone else forces a female character through training of some kind. There are a poo poo ton of "magical girls" who "OMG, I'm good at this? Neat. I've never practiced at it" like the adorable heroine of Butter who was an accomplished child sculpter with no instruction. And now there are plenty of skilled female chars who presumably worked hard at some time in the past to become good - but the story of them pushing themselves for their own advancement is never told. Starbucks, Brienne, and Vasquez simply are. Sprung into being fully formed. You see the same thing in real life where most female athleticism is presented as art only - the vicious competition happens behind the scenes in the auditions. All you see is the victors take their victory laps in shows. Think about how elegant she looks as she twirls. Not about the rivals she crushed to get there. So we have been conditioned since our earliest days to associate "ambitious woman" with "villain" because in all the stories we hear and see ... well they almost always are. Real life isn't like the movies which is why movies based on real life buck this trend. But the net effect means that the neural pathways in your brain between the concepts of ambition, woman, and evil are well worn and if two light up the third is raring to go.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 06:38
|
|
|
J Corp posted:Is your argument that she hasn't or that it doesn't matter? Protip: You might want to list some of those deceptions if you actually plan on changing anyone's mind or defending your position. gnarlyhotep is legitimately asking, and you probably shouldn't immediately attack him for a flippant response to your nearly content-less post.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 06:39
|
|
|
Neo_Crimson posted:I don't hate Hillary, but common leftist criticisms I've heard are: These seem like pretty good reasons.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 06:54
|
|
|
McAlister posted:Ambition is not tolerated in women in our society. Princess and the Frog, maybe?
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 07:17
|
|
|
Personally, aside from Maggie Thatcher, I could never vote for a woman leader. Also it's messed up that we've had 2 Bushes and likely will have 2 Clintons. The US wasn't supposed to have royal families.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 07:24
|
|
|
Ego-bot posted:Princess and the Frog, maybe? I'll check it out, thanks. =)
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 07:24
|
|
|
McAlister posted:Ambition is not tolerated in women in our society. I was thinking about this recently and I realized I can name plenty of movies with ambitious heroines, they just all happen to be aimed at children: Kiki's Delivery Service and a lot of Miyazaki's other films Mulan, Princess and the Frog, Brave ~50% of Disney channel original movies (Rip Girls obviously being the best) One notable exception I can think of is True Grit, but while not aimed at children the heroine is a child. I guess girls are allowed to be ambitious but women aren't.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 07:32
|
|
|
McAlister posted:Ambition is not tolerated in women in our society. This is a fantastic post but holy Hell is it depressing to read all that spelled out in one 
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 07:42
|
|
|
I try to have the conversation that McAlistar presents with people I know but they just don't get it. I had a dumb argument with a friend about why I don't watch Disney movies. First of all, I don't have kids like he does. That got a blank stare so I also said the messaging was terrible. But, in Beauty and the Beast you learn that women can be smart and strong, he says to me. I say that despite that, your choices as a woman is to marry an awful douchebag or to civilize a literal animal. The whole story is about putting up with men being terrible as a given in life. Then his wife jumps in to defend how wonderful Disney is and so I just give up. You guys all buy into this stupid narrative about how women are supposed to be. Then there's me. I'm not living on the fringe pushing gender boundaries or anything like that. I look like a pretty typical woman. I feel like if I buzzed my hair short, grew my armpit hair long and dyed it blue I'd be taken more seriously, even though I'm sure I'd still be treated pretty terribly. But society has decided that if you look like a woman, it's loving weird that you're openly intelligent, assertive, and ambitious. Sorry not sorry for failing to be impressed with Disney showing a girl reading dumb girl books as being a win for women. So yeah, the anti Hillary crap is pretty naked misogyny.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 07:43
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:I worry about over-generalizing but really I think a vast majority of it comes from gender. The only other First Lady you could compare to Hillary is probably Eleanor Roosevelt. Similar background to Clinton prior to becoming First Lady, having worked as an activist leader for the Women's Trade Union League, taught at a prep school, and formed Val-Kill Industries with other women Democratic Party activists, to help local families by giving them the opportunity to produce craft goods; same problems transitioning into the role of First Lady; clashed with other political figures over civil rights, her opposition to the internment of Japanese-American citizens, the implementation of the New Deal, etc. I believe there were also rumors of her being a lesbian.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 08:06
|
|
|
Uranium Phoenix posted:Protip: You might want to list some of those deceptions if you actually plan on changing anyone's mind or defending your position. gnarlyhotep is legitimately asking, and you probably shouldn't immediately attack him for a flippant response to your nearly content-less post. I was seriously asking, because if it was the latter, there's not really any point in responding. Here are a few examples though: Landing under sniper fire in Bosnia, attempting to join the military in the 70s, supporting DOMA only to protect the gay community from worse legislation, her private email server was set up "with the rules and regulations in effect", grandparents were immigrants, the "missing" billing records during the whitewater investigation and her level of involvement in it, leaving the whitehouse broke
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 08:10
|
|
|
Misogyny has to be part of the reason, as well as long-standing smear campaigns from republicans. But smear campaigns are politics as usual, and there are some particular characteristics of the Clintons in general, and Hillary in particular, that means that these smears have staying power:
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 08:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 14:50 |
|
|
skeet decorator posted:I was thinking about this recently and I realized I can name plenty of movies with ambitious heroines, they just all happen to be aimed at children: I wouldn't call most of those characters ambitious per se. And strong/good female characters can be strong and good without being ambitious. Kiki is doing what every witch her age does. So she is simply fulfilling what is expected of her. Ambition involves a desire to exceed the norm in some way. They even make a point of mentioning that Kiki is a rather poor witch who is only decent at flying. So engaging in a delivery service is not stretching herself any. Mulan is responding to threat. She didn't aspire to be a warrior like a young Brienne of Tarth must have. Sure she wasn't happy with an arranged marriage but she didn't run off to join the army in search of fame or fortune. Her father was being drafted and she knew he was to old and frail to serve so she took his place. Much like Katniss volunteered for the hunger games when her sister's name was drawn. This storyline is rooted in the feminine nurturing stereotype, not the masculine ambitious stereotype. Brave is very magical girl with her already being an accomplished rider and archer. She rebels against tradition certainly, but what does she aspire to? It's a great story and on my "good kid movies" list for sure but Merida's end goals are negative rather than positive. She wants not to be married off. Not so that she can pursue another dream instead but rather so that her life can remain precisely as it is. Which gets trickier after she accidentally turns her mum into a bear. I haven't seen any Disney channel original movies so I don't know about those. True Grit I haven't seen in forever but what I remember seems like it fits the bill. But yeah, what little there is is disproportionately pre-pubescent. For adult women I've got ... Well ... The lady in Silver Linings Playbook aspired to compete in a dance contest where they were terrible and scored 5/10. I think that's still ambition - she worked hard and practiced a lot and their efforts were central to the plot. Succeeding in one's ambition isn't the criteria, simply having ambition is.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 08:28
|
|