Can we talk about throwing your vote away?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Can we talk about throwing your vote away?

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

twodot posted:

I don't know about you, but when I vote third party it's to signal to major parties that I like the third party and they should shift to be in line with the third party.

All major third parties are genuinely worse than the 2 major parties and shifting american governance towards any of them is a terrible idea

# ¿ Oct 6, 2016 21:47

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 15:46

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

twodot posted:

I suppose it's good that minor third parties exist then.

Why would a major political party be expected to notice or care if a handful of votes go to a minor third party most people can't even name? I thought this was about pushing the major parties in the right direction?

# ¿ Oct 6, 2016 21:53

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

twodot posted:

"Well, you cast the best signal you could, and the political elite just doesn't care about your opinion", which is arguably true, but not an effective way to change how I vote.

It has nothing to do with the political elite ignoring your opinion.

The major parties are the major parties because they represent the greatest likelihood of getting a plurality of votes in a cultured fractured nation. The only way to make them change their mind is to convince them that by shifting in one political direction or another they will win the majority of American voters. Primaries accomplish that goal. Voting for a third party in the general election doesn't push the two major parties in either direction because they have no reason to believe listening to you would win them a plurality. They know this because your opinion just got crushed in the general election with 5% of the popular vote.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2016 22:02

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Bushiz posted:

but Hillary and Stein, and even Johnson, really, count as a vote against white nationalism, so the referendum on it becomes trump vs. not trump.

you are delusional if you think this is how it will work

# ¿ Oct 6, 2016 22:08

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Bushiz posted:

And, I mean, it's true that your third party vote for president in a safe state won't have any effect to push the major party to the left, but your major party vote for president in a safe state is similarly just noise to make yourself feel better about Having Done Something.

why do blue states turn blue?

twodot posted:

I can't reconcile these. If they will only listen to people who would win them a plurality and my opinions won't win them a plurality, then they are ignoring me. It's probably ok for them to ignore me, I'm just some dude, but arguing that the major parties will never listen to my interests therefore I must vote for one of the major parties is just really awkward to me.

I am not saying you must vote for a major party even though they will never listen to you. I am saying if you want a specific party to listen to you, vote in the primary. By the time it hits the general, you are making a referendum on the two possible directions the country could go. Its not about the one that exactly matches your interests, its about finding the one that is going to push the country in the best direction.

Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Oct 6, 2016

# ¿ Oct 6, 2016 22:11

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Bushiz posted:

Because of generational and demographic shifts where personal choice is meaningless.

Nope, try again

# ¿ Oct 6, 2016 22:15

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Soup du Jour posted:

If enough people vote, say, Green, to the point where a previously blue state is not, would that not be exactly the type of sign that would "convince them that by shifting in one political direction or another they will win the majority of American voters."?

Sure, but it also won't happen

Green party doesn't poll 3% because there is a vast majority that is just too practical to vote with their heart.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2016 22:20

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Ytlaya posted:

You can't have this both ways; a solidly blue or red state becoming non-blue/red also won't happen, because it is vanishingly unlikely statistically (just like a third party winning).

# ¿ Oct 6, 2016 22:45

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Ytlaya posted:

You can't have this both ways; a solidly blue or red state becoming non-blue/red also won't happen, because it is vanishingly unlikely statistically (just like a third party winning).

To follow up

If Voter Turnout among minority groups went to 100% based on current demographics NE, TX, GA, LA, and MS would all go blue.

Voting even in a red/blue state matters

# ¿ Oct 6, 2016 22:53

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Soup du Jour posted:

Seriously. When people start declaring that Stein is an agent of the Kremlin or that comparing Stein and Trump is like comparing Polio and Smallpox, it's clear that they're disappearing into '08 levels of delusion. The difference being that they know in their hearts that Clinton is going to be Obama but more of a hawk, and so resort to tearing into anyone (even if they're polling at 1%) who they feel threatens .

Or because Stein has no meaningful policy ideas and no idea how to govern. Do you really think the only reason people find Stein a laughably bad candidate is because she is challenging Hillary?

# ¿ Oct 6, 2016 22:57

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Bushiz posted:

Like I've been working on fighting voter suppression in Texas for more than a decade and to say "well if [utterly fantastical circumstance that has been systematically suppressed for generations] happens then won't YOU feel dumb" is bananas insulting condescension from coasties to everyone doing the work down here.

You've been working on voter suppression in Texas for a decade but don't believe voting in solid red/blue states matters?

# ¿ Oct 7, 2016 01:20

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Ytlaya posted:

This isn't how statistics works. Using this same logic, you could also say "well if trends suddenly drastically changed a third party could win!"

There is a difference between support and turnout

if 100% of Green Party supporters turned out they might somehow manage an astounding 6% of the vote and would still not win a single state, that's not so with the Democratic party.

The point is that blue states do not magically come from the ether of demographics. Blue states are blue states because more Democrats vote. Do more democrats vote because there are simply more democrats? Sure. But, arguing that a single vote is meaningless has a compounding effect on the entire electorate. Even a vote in a hard blue state matters because people like you showing up and voting is what makes it a blue state. Six months ago no one thought AZ could go blue, but now it might because enough Democrats are motivated to actually go out and turn a traditional guaranteed red state blue.

# ¿ Oct 7, 2016 02:18

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 15:46

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

His Purple Majesty posted:

How much do you guys get paid to shill for the Democrats? Are the benefits good?

Exceptional dental plan

# ¿ Oct 7, 2016 15:18

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Can we talk about throwing your vote away?