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Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016

Norway: The Ultimate Utopia. There's a welfare state so unrealistically generous that even Michael Moore wouldn't include in that one film. Bernie Sanders went on for some time about the wonders of a "Scandinavian-style" society. The fact that everything is expensive doesn't really matter, as all Norwegians are rich. Also, they all speak English.

Sitting in Norway, it appears as if this is the general idea people have of the place. Some of it's pretty close, some of it really isn't. Sometimes, left-leaning Americans will come to visit for a few years, and develop some kind of Stockholm-Syndromesque fascination for it. And yes, it's really very cold sometimes, but the nature is really pretty.

Do you want to know what your job would pay here? How the education system works? Curious about laws, food, dialects, names, healthcare, economy? Anything else?

If I don't already know, I'll likely find out pretty easily.

Dry facts:
  • Total population some 5 million.
  • Capital, largest city and financial center is Oslo, population 630k
  • The other sort-of-populous cities are Bergen (270k) and Trondheim (180k)
  • Currency is the Krone, or NOK; you get about 8 of them for your USD
  • Parliamentary constitutional monarchy
  • "Parliamentary" here means a ton of political parties not deciding how to run things
  • "Constitutional monarchy" here means a king holding speeches and looking at parades

Geographically, the country is long and narrow, some 1,100 miles from tip to toe as Google Maps flies. Mainland Norway covers about 125,000 square miles, making it just a little bit bigger than New Mexico (or a tad smaller than Germany, which is closer). Including some lovely ice-covered holdings far out to sea, the kingdom's total area is roughly 150,000 square miles; a tad larger than Montana. Much like New Mexico and Montana, there's not a whole lot of people on all that land. Farmland, roads and built-up area combined only make up some 6,300 square miles. The rest is wilderness. Norway touches on Russia and Finland in the north-east, has an eastern land border towards Sweden, and is otherwise surrounded by ocean (although Denmark and Germany are just a ferry away).

Geopolitically, Norway is a founding member of NATO and the UN. While not a member of the EU, it does have access to the European Single Market through the EEA – think "EU Light". It is also a signatory to the Schengen agreement, meaning there are no real border controls in place between Norway and most of Europe (apart from customs; we don't want any cheap alcohol or tobacco entering the country).

Economy is always fun, and amazingly, it's not just all about oil (or fish). The country also sports a thriving state-owned arms industry. Depending on whom you ask, it regularly appears in the top 10 largest arms exporters in the world, topping out as the 4th largest back in 2008 – and although a sizable chunk of this is ammunition, all of it is strictly military hardware. The more you know! The country's wealth does stem mainly from oil and gas, however, so that most Norwegians refer to its sovereign wealth fund (officially the Government Pension Fund of Norway) only as "the oil fund".

These people ran away from Norway 1100 years ago to avoid death and taxes.

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Earwicker
Jan 6, 2003

Pursesnatcher posted:

Norway: The Ultimate Utopia. There's a welfare state so unrealistically generous that even Michael Moore wouldn't include in that one film. Bernie Sanders went on for some time about the wonders of a "Scandinavian-style" society. The fact that everything is expensive doesn't really matter, as all Norwegians are rich. Also, they all speak English.

Sitting in Norway, it appears as if this is the general idea people have of the place.

as an American I think another part of the reputation it has here is that it's full of metalheads. I just visited Oslo for the first time about a week ago and maybe its overblown but there were plenty. And the metalheads I met there were super nice people

murphyslaw
Feb 16, 2007
It never fails
Can confirm oversized population of metalheads here (being in a metal band myself). Generally nice people, though you do of course bump into the occasional less than savoury variety.

Another fun fact about Norwegians is that for every Norwegian eager to espouse the wonders of our little country - a national sport - another one dies of embarrassment (hence our limited population).

Original_Z
Jun 14, 2005
Z so good
I'm sure it's not the same for the entire population but the Norwegians I've met (admittedly not that many) have had super good English skill and accents, they sounded like native speakers, made no grammar mistakes at all, and probably could have easily passed for Americans yet had never lived abroad. They told me it's because they consume so much American media on TV, but a lot of countries also consume it and I've never met other Europeans that were that good, even the Danes and Swedes I've met have excellent English but still had a minor accent. Even the OP is in perfect English. I really wonder how they do it, and why other countries don't emulate it.

I've always wanted to go to Norway and just drive around in the country, but hearing how expensive everything is seems kind of scary, like you'd need to bring some serious cash with you to really enjoy yourself. How true do you think that is?

Original_Z fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Oct 26, 2016

Saros
Dec 29, 2009

Its almost like we're a Bureaucracy, in space!

I set sail for the Planet of Lab Requisitions!!

I've only visited Norway once but I was astounded by how friendly and nice everyone was basically the whole time. We spend a while in Stavanger and the surrounding Fjords staying with a Norwegian family who were friends with one of the parents of one of the girls we were travelling with. Despite never having met 3/4 of us before they let us stay in their home, lent us a car, insisted on feeding us insane amounts of brown cheese (so good) and were generally just over the top generous so I came away with a very positive impression of the people. All the people we interacted with otherwise were also super friendly and extra excited about us being Kiwi's. Everyone we interacted with spoke perfect English and better German than me.

It's an expensive country but you can travel it on something of a budget, especially if you like hiking and nature as those activities are basically free apart from transport costs and food etc. The scenery is also just astounding and really you have no idea until you've been there just how beautiful it is.

OP please tell me about the best places to go to see the Aurora, i'm planning a trip later this year. (P.s. as hard as it is to admit it your fjords are better than ours).

murphyslaw
Feb 16, 2007
It never fails
I can answer some questions if that is OK with OP. I'll go with Original_Z, I'm not much of a meteorologist so I couldn't tell you about the Aurora, Saros. Sorry! Glad you enjoyed your stay, though.

Original_Z posted:

Even the OP is in perfect English. I really wonder how they do it, and why other countries don't emulate it.

As for our English, it really depends on who you meet - typically, metropolitan or young Norwegians will have a fairly decent command of English. I think this is partly a result of a strong emphasis on English education lasting from the first year of grade school to year 13, and higher education typically uses English textbooks (at least where I have studied). A second reason is, like you've been suggested, our TV - we do not dub most foreign programming like in France or Spain, and up until fairly recently, the most exciting stuff was foreign television, so many Norwegians were exposed to that, and other foreign languages.

These are, at least, the main reasons commonly given by most Norwegians. It's gotten to the point where some people argue that English, rather than a foreign language generally understood and spoken by the population, has become closer to a second official language.


Original_Z posted:

I've always wanted to go to Norway and just drive around in the country, but hearing how expensive everything is seems kind of scary, like you'd need to bring some serious cash with you to really enjoy yourself. How true do you think that is?

Generally, costs of living are higher in Norway than in the US, true. I'm assuming you're an American here, sorry if you are not. But unless you plan on eating out and clubbing a lot, you should be fine - especially now that the dollar is strong and the Norwegian Krone is weak due the oil crisis - 1 USD will net you over 8 NOK, whereas it has typically been between 5 and 6, so you should be fine if you're thrifty.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011




Original_Z posted:

I'm sure it's not the same for the entire population but the Norwegians I've met (admittedly not that many) have had super good English skill and accents, they sounded like native speakers, made no grammar mistakes at all, and probably could have easily passed for Americans yet had never lived abroad. They told me it's because they consume so much American media on TV, but a lot of countries also consume it and I've never met other Europeans that were that good, even the Danes and Swedes I've met have excellent English but still had a minor accent.

Danes can barely speak their own language.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016

Only good can come from more Norwegians answering :D

Original_Z posted:

I'm sure it's not the same for the entire population but the Norwegians I've met (admittedly not that many) have had super good English skill and accents, they sounded like native speakers, made no grammar mistakes at all, and probably could have easily passed for Americans yet had never lived abroad. They told me it's because they consume so much American media on TV, but a lot of countries also consume it and I've never met other Europeans that were that good, even the Danes and Swedes I've met have excellent English but still had a minor accent. Even the OP is in perfect English. I really wonder how they do it, and why other countries don't emulate it.

Short answer:
Nobody knows for sure, but like murphyslaw said, media exposure and education likely matters a lot. There could be some other cultural factors at play as well, though.

Long answer: Back in medieval times (the answer won't be 700 years long, I promise), the Black Death took an especially heavy toll on Norway. To this day, you'll find the name "Ødegård" – literally "Desolate farm" – all around the country. In addition to killing about two thirds of the population, pretty much every single noble, priest and otherwise literate person just up and died from the plague. With most of the ruling class wiped out, it was simple enough for Sweden to waltz in and declare us as a junior partner in a personal union; before Denmark took the place as benevolent overlord some decades later. After a few more decades of jostling, Norway then entered what is commonly referred to as "the 400-year night" under Danish rule. Denmark ended up siding with the wrong guy in the Napoleonic wars, though, so on May 17th 1814 we were able to declare independence, and cook up a constitution. However, Sweden was on the winning side in the aforementioned wars, and so felt entitled to a prize. Norway was it, so voilà, new junior partnership of personal union for us. This lasted until 1905, when we finally achieved proper independence.

There is a point to all this. Denmark and Sweden were both proper empires for quite some time. Norway, as we have seen, was an occupied backwater. Even after gaining independence, we only got 35 years of it before the Germans came knocking, and they stayed until 1945. In the meantime, lots of Norwegians got pretty good at speaking German, just as they had learned Swedish and Danish before that. It's telling that our main written language today – called "bokmål", roughly meaning "book words" – is remarkably similar to Danish. Now, after World War 2, English became the Proper Language To Know. The royal family and cabinet had, after all, sought refuge in London throughout the war, and the resistance kept in radio contact with Britain. I would suggest that, national romanticism of the late 1800's notwithstanding, as we had little to no history of National Pride™ in our language, as a nation we were more open to learning a new one.

In addition to all that, you'll find English being taught in all schools from a reasonably young age, and it's been this way for at least a few decades. English is the working language of many major corporations, especially in the vital oil industry, meaning it's an important language to know for purely practical reasons.

Original_Z posted:

I've always wanted to go to Norway and just drive around in the country, but hearing how expensive everything is seems kind of scary, like you'd need to bring some serious cash with you to really enjoy yourself. How true do you think that is?

It really depends on what you want to do, and where you want to go. As a rule, the farther you go from an airport, the more expensive things get. I know of pubs – actual, commonly used pubs which the locals visit – in the far north charging $12 for a can of store-bought beer. Go to an off-the-grid tourist destination, and prices will be even steeper.

It's not all revoltingly bad, though.
  • A wildlife zoo entry fee would be $35-40
  • You could book a day trip of rafting from $135
  • Renting a small car for a week, picked up at Oslo Airport, could be as little as $350-450
  • Gasoline is about $6 per gallon, though (Ah, and learn some metric, because nobody here knows imperial)
  • Oslo hotels start at $80 a night for a single adult room if you book well in advance, hostels about half that
  • Rural hotels can be crazy expensive, but $110 should be doable
  • The government's "reference budget" for a single adult male household suggests $350 should keep you fed for a month, assuming you're not eating out
  • A restaurant bill could be as low as $15 (excluding drink), or as high as you want
  • A typical "somewhat wild but not irresponsible night out" in a major city should set you back no more than $50-100
  • Walking in the wilderness is generally free (appropriate gear for winter trips is not)

Saros posted:

OP please tell me about the best places to go to see the Aurora, i'm planning a trip later this year. (P.s. as hard as it is to admit it your fjords are better than ours).

Fjords rock (but they only show foreigners the very best ones).

For Aurora, it's a little bit down to luck, and a lot down to location. There has been some immense solar activity lately, which normally translates into spectacular displays. Sitting in Oslo, however, you wouldn't notice. First, there's too much light pollution (city lights lighten the sky for miles and miles around, drowning it out). Second, the weather has been poo poo. Third, Oslo might just be a little bit too far south. In perfectly clear conditions, and if it's especially strong, it's possible to see it from Oslo, but your odds would improve dramatically by travelling a bit north. Lillehammer might be the easiest place to try – there's less light pollution, and the aurora itself generally shines stronger (as it's further north). If you go really far north, your odds improve even more – with a whole lot less daylight (if any), and a lot less people, light pollution is a minor problem even in Tromsø (the main northern city). If the weather is poo poo, though, none of that helps.

lizard_phunk
Oct 23, 2003

Alt Girl For Norge
I'm a Norwegian too. I remember my mom telling me about school in the 50's-60's. She was born in 1949 and grew up at a farm in a tiny village in the South East part of Norway.

In elementary school, she was learning very basic English and German. The generation before her were learning a lot of German.

For obvious reasons, German became less popular in the 50's.

So my question is this: do you think the role of Norway in WW2 is a reason it's so "obvious" to us that English is the language to learn?

My impression is that many Norwegians are very much into learning British English - although most of our media input is American English.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011




Pursesnatcher posted:


There is a point to all this. Denmark and Sweden were both proper empires for quite some time. Norway, as we have seen, was an occupied backwater. Even after gaining independence, we only got 35 years of it before the Germans came knocking, and they stayed until 1945. In the meantime, lots of Norwegians got pretty good at speaking German, just as they had learned Swedish and Danish before that.

There's also the fact that there were a lot of germans working in norwegian mines in the 16th century. There were in fact so many that speaking german became s status symbol and the first non-german oberberghauptmann (director of the mines) changed his name from Mikkel Hellesen to Michael Heltzen in order to sound more german.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016

lizard_phunk posted:

I'm a Norwegian too. I remember my mom telling me about school in the 50's-60's. She was born in 1949 and grew up at a farm in a tiny village in the South East part of Norway.

In elementary school, she was learning very basic English and German. The generation before her were learning a lot of German.

For obvious reasons, German became less popular in the 50's.

So my question is this: do you think the role of Norway in WW2 is a reason it's so "obvious" to us that English is the language to learn?

My impression is that many Norwegians are very much into learning British English - although most of our media input is American English.

My answer: Yes, absolutely. Our neighbor sort of confirms. Ish.

Like Norway, Sweden declared neutrality when the war began. Unlike Norway, Sweden's neutrality was respected. While German battlecruisers sailed up Norwegian fjords, and German panzers rolled across Danish fields, German diplomats were likely having reasonably polite supper with Swedish government officials. I actually have a book somewhere called "Mein lieber Reichskanzler!" – the title quoting the opening phrase of a congratulatory 1941 letter from Gustav V of Sweden to, well, a certain Reichskanzler. Now, the fact that nobody invaded Sweden was more likely due to its strategic insignificance than to the friendship between its leaders, but Germany was certainly held in high esteem in the Nordics (until it started invading everyone). German had long been a language of polite and/or intellectual conversation in the region, much like French had been in the anglophone countries.

After the war, of course, this changed; and from my experience, I think you're absolutely right that even today, British English is considered more "proper" than American.

Alhazred posted:

There's also the fact that there were a lot of germans working in norwegian mines in the 16th century. There were in fact so many that speaking german became s status symbol and the first non-german oberberghauptmann (director of the mines) changed his name from Mikkel Hellesen to Michael Heltzen in order to sound more german.

Also, this. The "German as high society-language" phase goes waaaaay back. Germans (or at least germanics) were always expert craftsmen, so when we needed mines, smelters or anything else, that's who we got to make it happen – and they, in turn, wanted contracts, rules and regulations in German. Naturally, we acquiesced.

Pursesnatcher fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Oct 26, 2016

Earwicker
Jan 6, 2003

Original_Z posted:

I'm sure it's not the same for the entire population but the Norwegians I've met (admittedly not that many) have had super good English skill and accents, they sounded like native speakers, made no grammar mistakes at all, and probably could have easily passed for Americans yet had never lived abroad.

I met a Norwegian while I was there who was from small town and had just moved to Oslo, had never left the country, and yet he spoke English with the perfect accent and expressions of a 70's British rocker, like the dude must have learned English exclusively from watching interviews with the members of Black Sabbath

Saros
Dec 29, 2009

Its almost like we're a Bureaucracy, in space!

I set sail for the Planet of Lab Requisitions!!

Oh yes one more thing, those small cross country ski things with what appeared to be rollerblade wheels on them. I was told they were essentially a birthright of every Norwegian and everyone had them. True/false?

Pewdiepie
Oct 31, 2010

How much does pizza delivery cost you?

murphyslaw
Feb 16, 2007
It never fails

Pewdiepie posted:

How much does pizza delivery cost you?

Our firstborn (going rate for those on the market is generally around 20 dollars).

F4rt5
May 20, 2006

Saros posted:

Oh yes one more thing, those small cross country ski things with what appeared to be rollerblade wheels on them. I was told they were essentially a birthright of every Norwegian and everyone had them. True/false?
Regular skis, yes. Roller skis, the ones you talk about, no. Pretty much only professionals, semi-pros or people who want to look like retards in summertime use those.

F4rt5
May 20, 2006

murphyslaw posted:

Our firstborn (going rate for those on the market is generally around 20 dollars).

From Peppes or Dolly Dimples, the two major chains, around $40-50 with sauces, large core and a tip.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016

Depending on where you shop, a large pizza is $15-40, sauce between $2-4, soda (50 oz) $4-6, and delivery $8-10. Your total comes out to $29-60.

A surprising number of people prefer the most expensive option.

JazzmasterCurious posted:

Regular skis, yes. Roller skis, the ones you talk about, no. Pretty much only professionals, semi-pros or people who want to look like retards in summertime use those.

Roller skis are actually magical devices. They are the One Thing capable of making bicyclists and motorists set aside their mutual hatred of each other for a moment, and uniting them in rollerskier-loathing.

murphyslaw
Feb 16, 2007
It never fails
Yeah I fudged the price for pizza, it's easily double what I said.

Pellisworth
Jun 20, 2005
Hi I'm an American of Norwegian descent who enjoys homemade lefse during the holidays but do you guys actually eat lutefisk, and why the gently caress did you export that cuisine?

Brunost is also very good.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016

Pellisworth posted:

Hi I'm an American of Norwegian descent who enjoys homemade lefse during the holidays but do you guys actually eat lutefisk, and why the gently caress did you export that cuisine?

Brunost is also very good.

Norwegian, eh, I suppose we can call it "cuisine" if you want, is odd. Case in point: Lutefisk. You take a perfectly edible cod, hang it on a rack to dry, and then you leave it there until it's more reminiscent of a piece of wood than a fish. You then stick the thing in a vat of caustic soda for some time, before boiling it into some sort of horrible fish-jelly. And then you're supposed to eat it? I'll pass. However, lutefisk is considered a delicacy of sorts. Especially older folks claim to relish the taste and consistency.

Lutefisk (literally "lye-fish") is commonly found as a dish for family Christmas dinners, alongside these classics:
  • pinnekjøtt ("stick-meat" – a steamed dish made from heavily salted and cured mutton)
  • medister (untranslatable – various consumables made from kidney fat and pork meat)
  • pork ribs (which, as you might guess, has little in common with the American kind)

As for exporting it, I suspect that wasn't really us. It strikes me more as a way for Norwegian emigrants to prank or punish future generations (which by the way is totally something a Norwegian would do).

Pursesnatcher fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Oct 27, 2016

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011




JazzmasterCurious posted:

Regular skis, yes. Roller skis, the ones you talk about, no. Pretty much only professionals, semi-pros or people who want to look like retards in summertime use those.

I have lived in Holmenkollen and can confirm this.

lizard_phunk
Oct 23, 2003

Alt Girl For Norge

Pursesnatcher posted:

  • medister (untranslatable – various consumables made from kidney fat and pork meat)

Very translatable!

Medister = med (English "with") ister.

It's random ground meats with ister, obviously.

What is ister, you say? From the Norse "istr", fat of the entrails (especially around the kidneys).
Usually from pigs, a gloriously unhealthy sort of fat used for thousands of years to make savoury Christmas food and to wax skis (no kidding).

Goatse James Bond
Mar 28, 2010


I've made a huge mistake.

lizard_phunk posted:

Very translatable!

Medister = med (English "with") ister.

It's random ground meats with ister, obviously.

What is ister, you say? From the Norse "istr", fat of the entrails (especially around the kidneys).
Usually from pigs, a gloriously unhealthy sort of fat used for thousands of years to make savoury Christmas food and to wax skis (no kidding).

"Well, fueck. Our skis are waxed and we still have some surplus. What to do?"

*eyes food cauldron*

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.
How does having such a high quality of life work when they tax you such a high amount?

How is a middle class person better in Norway after getting taxed so heavily?

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011




punk rebel ecks posted:

How does having such a high quality of life work when they tax you such a high amount?
First of all, the taxes in Norway isn't that high. Second, you do know that taxes is what makes it possible to have a functioning welfare state? It's not like the tax money goes directly into the politician's pocket.

quote:

How is a middle class person better in Norway after getting taxed so heavily?
Stuff like not having to go bankrupt when you get sick or injured helps in that regard.

Kopijeger
Feb 14, 2010

punk rebel ecks posted:

How does having such a high quality of life work when they tax you such a high amount?

Simple: the taxes go toward providing services that improve quality of life. Healthcare has already been mentioned, but there is also higher education without paying more than a nominal fee for tuition.

F4rt5
May 20, 2006

The average yearly pay in Norway is around $60,000 before taxes and without overtime and other benefits. Most middle-class families have time-and-a-half to twice that since both spouses/partners/whatever are working.

Taxes were usually 36% up to an income of around $65,000 after which you paid 50% tax on the income above that. Now it's being replaced with a more progressive step-rate system.

There's a flat national sales tax of 25% on most items except foodstuffs, which are 15%. Unless sold in a restaurant or the like, in which case it's 25%.

We also have extremely high extra taxes on alcohol and tobacco. Over 50% of the price of a bottle of hard liquor (anything above 21% abv) is alcohol tax. A 1 liter bottle of Jäger is $65.

A pack of Luckies (or whatever) is around $13.

Despite the cost of living a normal middle-class family can afford two cars, traveling abroad a couple times a year and compared to the US we have a lot of free time.

I might make an effort post about living on welfare - the "utopia" part of our system, what some of that tax money goes to - having experienced both living large in the boom times and being basically homeless.

Pilsner
Nov 23, 2002

It's funny, across other economically uniform Scandinavia there are a few major, major differences when it comes consumer prices in daily life.

Both Denmark and Norway have ridiculous taxes on cars, while Sweden has virtually zero.

Liquor in Sweden and Norway is outrageously expensive, we're talking up to 60-70 USD for a simple 1 liter bottle of Absolut Vodka, while in Denmark it's down to around 20 / liter for average big brand booze, and we can pop down to the German border and get it around 30% cheaper. I wonder how much illegal / black market import there is in particularly southern Sweden. It's legal for them to take up a limited amount for personal use (rule of thumb 10 liters), but technically it's illegal to load up a trailer with 100 bottles intended for sale and profit.

lizard_phunk posted:

Very translatable!

Medister = med (English "with") ister.

It's random ground meats with ister, obviously.

What is ister, you say? From the Norse "istr", fat of the entrails (especially around the kidneys).
Usually from pigs, a gloriously unhealthy sort of fat used for thousands of years to make savoury Christmas food and to wax skis (no kidding).
"ister"? I thought you were joking. I'm Danish and didn't know this!

Kopijeger
Feb 14, 2010

Pilsner posted:

Both Denmark and Norway have ridiculous taxes on cars, while Sweden has virtually zero.

The first two have no automobile industry. It wouldn't surprise me if the Swedish auto manufacturers have lobbied their government to favour their own industry.

quote:

Liquor in Sweden and Norway is outrageously expensive, we're talking up to 60-70 USD for a simple 1 liter bottle of Absolut Vodka, while in Denmark it's down to around 20 / liter for average big brand booze, and we can pop down to the German border and get it around 30% cheaper.

That is one peculiar cultural difference between Danmark and the rest of the Nordics. At least in matters relating to alcohol consumption and prostitution, their attitudes and laws seem closer to what they have in Germany and the Netherlands. All the other Nordics have some form of state-run liquor monopoly, and in Norway and Sweden purchasing prostitution services is actually illegal.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011




Pellisworth posted:

Hi I'm an American of Norwegian descent who enjoys homemade lefse during the holidays but do you guys actually eat lutefisk, and why the gently caress did you export that cuisine?



Personally I'm convinced that lutefisk is an elobarate prank gone horribly wrong.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016

lizard_phunk posted:

Very translatable!

Medister = med (English "with") ister.

It's random ground meats with ister, obviously.

What is ister, you say? From the Norse "istr", fat of the entrails (especially around the kidneys).
Usually from pigs, a gloriously unhealthy sort of fat used for thousands of years to make savoury Christmas food and to wax skis (no kidding).

This is both horrific and curiously exciting.

punk rebel ecks posted:

How does having such a high quality of life work when they tax you such a high amount?

How is a middle class person better in Norway after getting taxed so heavily?

Heh. As questions go, this is one of the more incendiary ones. But let's go!

Looking at the Norwegian tax system, at first glance it really isn't so bad. Several countries, including the US, has a higher maximum income tax. Additionally, if you ask most Norwegians, they will tell you (in no uncertain terms) how great all the free stuff is; all the awesome stuff their taxes buy. You've seen it, if mildly, in this thread already. "Sure", they'll say, "alcohol and tobacco are expensive – but those things aren't good for you anyway". This argument in itself tells you much about the Norwegian mindset regarding taxes. "They might be high, but they are for your own good". Now, some of my fellow Norwegians have already provided excellent examples regarding prices and such, but I'd like to add to them, so as to flesh out how the tax system works.

First, let's look at the income tax. Say an average Norwegian's gross salary is indeed $60,000. To simplify, we will assume this guy has no kids, no loans bearing interest, and is not a union member (all of which could affect taxes). His income tax would then come out to about $16,000 – about 27 percent. The reason is that the government deduces some $17,000 from his gross salary before calculating his taxable income, and that part is then taxed at about 38 percent (in this example). However, there's also payroll taxes to consider. While this varies from location to location, but sits at 14,1 percent in the most populous areas. For this average Norwegian of ours, that means another $8500 a year, paid by his employer. Thus, out of a total of $68,500 paid by his employer, our Norwegian ends up receiving $44,000. While still quite a bit of money, it's actually a little bit less than what an average American receives per year, while the government's share of $24,500 is significantly higher (as is the cost of his employer for keeping him on payroll, compared to the cost of employing an American in the US at the same net pay – competitive, high taxes are not). In real life, there would be more factors to consider. Deductible expenses, such as interest, pension savings or union fees, are not included. All in all, though, the average income and wealth tax combined comes to $14.500.

While this all means your average Norwegian should have a roughly $125 higher monthly disposable income then your average American, there's two more bits of intricacy at work: Holiday Money and Christmas Tax Relief.

Most Norwegians will tell you how nice it is that they only need to pay half their regular taxes in December. This is of course false. In reality, employers are required to withhold a higher sum every month than what the employee should actually pay in taxes – except in December, when everything is balanced out. This then translates into a higher net payout for employees before Christmas. The story goes that this is to ensure everyone can afford to buy presents for their loved ones; a scheme which has a totally incidental side effect of the government effectively receiving an interest-free loan from most of the population through the first 11 months of every year.

"Holiday Money" works in a roughly similar fashion. Not only do Norwegians have the right to a vacation, they also have a duty to take a minimum of 21-25 working days off each year; at least 15 of which must be taken during the summer. Once more, many Norwegians believe that they have paid vacations – and better yet, the pay they get during their vacation is not taxed! Once more, both of these beliefs are false. What happens is employers are required to withhold 10,2-12 percent of their employees' wages throughout the whole year. This is still taxed, normally at the same time it is being set aside, but when you finally get this money back – on the last payday before your main vacation period the following year – there are no taxes to withhold, as they were all paid the previous year. Once more, the government receives a sizable chunk of tax income from the entire population well in advance of the people actually receiving their money.

Anyhow, that's income taxes. All in all, it's not so bad, apart from the government not trusting people to be able to set aside money for anything.

Moving on, we see that apart from the summer payout and the "Christmas bonus", disposable income for an average Norwegian is about the same as for an average American. However, while sales taxes in the US are generally between 0 and 8 percent depending on what state you're in, Norwegians pay a value added tax of 25 percent on pretty much everything. As was stated previously in the thread, food you purchase to eat away from the place of purchase (meaning groceries and take-away only) has a VAT of 15 percent. The VAT on transportation services and certain other stuff is even lower. Books are exempt from VAT, but that really doesn't matter as Norwegian publishing houses has some sort of cartel setup going on, so even cheap paperback books are easily $25. Meanwhile, you do have to pay the full 25 percent even on most services, which is fun. I'm not sure at what point in the value chain a haircut earns taxation, but there you go. In practive, this means that Norwegians – while earning about as much as Americans – get about 15-25 percent less for each dollar they're paid than Americans, depending on which state they live in. But all this if before the fun stuff.

Because the fun stuff, the really cool stuff; that's the special taxes. Now, the one tax which, in my experience, amuses Americans the most, is the horsepower tax. Sadly, it is being phased out next year (in favor of an eco-friendly bump in both the CO2- and NOX-taxes). For the longest time, though, a V6-powered Ford Mustang priced at $27,000 in the US would get a tax bill of – brace yourselves – $90,000 (and it used to be higher) slapped on it when crossing the border. This is the reason Norway is, for the most part, a country of Fiat Unos and Volkswagen Golfs, with the occasional Skoda Octavia thrown in by people who want to show off their wealth. If this is exaggeration, it's the mildest form.

Alcohol is also ridiculously expensive, it's true. Taxes are higher than anywhere in the world – and the higher the ABV, the higher the tax. Beer is taxed at 49 percent, liqour at 78 percent. VAT, of course, comes on top of this. This means that while a 17 oz can of beer in a supermarket is a mere $4, a shot of liquor in a bar is easily three to four times that. Tobacco is almost as bad; I think a pack of 20 Luckies retails at about $13 these days. Moving on to a lighter kind of vice, there's also the sugar tariffs, which is currently levied at the same rate as that of light beer. Sugar, however, is taxed well ahead of goods reaching the shelves, and thus this tax is not something most people are aware of. Then we have import tariffs aplenty; many of which are at several hundred percent of the value of the good being imported. If you've travelled the world a bit, and ever visited Norway, you might wonder why you cannot seem to find any British cheddar, or Swiss chocolate, or really any non-domestic consumables of any kind in the shops. This is because Norwegian farmes, whose prices are ludicrous, need protection – and so, the government taxes imports so high that for most categories of foreign foodstuffs, the amounts of produce actually brought into the country are infinitesimal; available only through the most exclusive of delicatessen to the very wealthiest. So much for your vaunted egalitarianism. Then there's a special, if minor, environment- and packaging tax on most items, especially on electronics; there's a row of fuel and air fare taxes on plane tickets; we have a document tax on all legal documents; we have pesticide taxes and sulfur gas taxes; there's a special boat-engine tax as well if I'm not mistaken. And let's not forget the regular fuel taxes, mentioned briefly earlier, putting gasoline at $6 a gallon. There's more, of course, but these are the ones that sprung to mind.

Anyway, that's the system itself. People are taxed pretty hard, but not unbearably so. Not on their income, anyways. Instead, consumption of goods is insanely expensive, making Norway a very special kind of socialist utopia; one where there's a sizable poll tax effectively being levied on the downtrodden proletariat.

So why, oh why, would I say that this is an incendiary question?

Norwegians, you see, are terribly proud of their taxes. They will tell you how they make a ton of money, and can afford it. They will tell you it's good to have high taxes, because taxes pay for all that stuff Americans cannot afford. Like healthcare. Never mind that Norwegians with the means are buying health insurance in ever-increasing numbers, as those who can afford it do not trust the public health system, what with its waiting time of up to 8 hours at the municipal emergency room. Never mind that the "free healthcare" is in shambles; the doctors striking for the right not to be forced to work 20-hour shifts at a moment's notice. Never mind that "free healthcare" does not cover anything remotely related to what happens in your oral cavity; to the point where the head of the main worker's union – beacon of solidarity indeed – a couple of years back was decided to go to Hungary to get her teeth fixed; it was too expensive for her to get it done in Norway itself. And never mind that the poor generally avoid going to the doctor if they can help it, as there's still a $30-40 charge per visit. This isn't Britain NHS, to put it mildly. And besides, our glorious public health system only occupies a paltry 17 percent of the government's expense sheet.

Now, of course, taxes aren't all bad. They pay for our armed forces (3 percent of government expenses) and public services like police, fire brigades, courts of law and prisons (2 percent, all combined). Even more importantly, they pay for our education (11 percent of expenses), where preschools, kindergartens, elementary schools and high schools are the main expense posts. Higher education, like universities, are indeed free. So that's nice. Of course, all the posts mentioned in this paragraph plus healthcare only comes to NOK 505 billion; a third of the total expenses.

A large chunk of the remainder is spent on keeping the bureaucrats fed, along with international emergency aid, protecting the environment, and of course building infrastructure. Let's just for a moment ignore that Albania has a more sophisticated road network that we do, and that half the country is still screaming for railroads, 140 years on. A tiny little bit is spent on research, funding theaters and churches account for a bit of it all. But the main part, the single largest expense post, is the NOK 605 billion spent on social security. Nearly 15 percent of all government expenses go into pensions alone; disease and disability pension are another 14 percent. For some mysterious reason, Norway has one of the sickest and most disabled populations in the world, so naturally it's expensive to care for them all. And then there's the NOK 110 billion spent on, uh, well, mainly just cash payouts to people who have children, on account of them having children.

So as Alhazred said, it's nice not having to go bankrupt when you get sick or injured. But all in all, it's a bit more complicated than that. And we really can't afford more stuff than Americans can, and it's not really helping ordinary people much. But we really, really, really like to think it does, and we like to think we have more spending power than Americans even more.

Svartvit
Jun 18, 2005

al-Qabila samaa Bahth

Pursesnatcher posted:

"Holiday Money" works in a roughly similar fashion. Not only do Norwegians have the right to a vacation, they also have a duty to take a minimum of 21-25 working days off each year; at least 15 of which must be taken during the summer. Once more, many Norwegians believe that they have paid vacations – and better yet, the pay they get during their vacation is not taxed! Once more, both of these beliefs are false. What happens is employers are required to withhold 10,2-12 percent of their employees' wages throughout the whole year. This is still taxed, normally at the same time it is being set aside, but when you finally get this money back – on the last payday before your main vacation period the following year – there are no taxes to withhold, as they were all paid the previous year. Once more, the government receives a sizable chunk of tax income from the entire population well in advance of the people actually receiving their money.

This explanation is a little misleading. When you negotiate pay you add the holiday compensation onto the agreed salary. It isn't taken from the wages, it's added to the wages. If you sign a contract for €3000 a month, you're not getting flaked for 10 percent, the employer is adding it. You could argue that the distinction really is philisophical or whatever, but in practice it means something.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016

Svartvit posted:

This explanation is a little misleading. When you negotiate pay you add the holiday compensation onto the agreed salary. It isn't taken from the wages, it's added to the wages. If you sign a contract for €3000 a month, you're not getting flaked for 10 percent, the employer is adding it. You could argue that the distinction really is philisophical or whatever, but in practice it means something.

Not really. You'll get your €3000 gross each month, but come June (or July, or whatever), you'll get nothing, except the Holiday Money from the previous year. If you start this job January 1st, your new employer will shell out just short of €33,000 through the whole year, while Holiday Money from your previous employer will fill the gap in that one month your new employer is not paying you for not working.

Jeza
Feb 13, 2011

The cries of the dead are terrible indeed; you should try not to hear them.
For a country with a high level of education, GDP per capita and standard of English, I've always thought modern Norway punched rather below its weight in terms of recognisable world figures. Most of the ones the person on the street has heard of will be from over 100 years ago. Like Finland it feels like Norway has a bit of a navel gazing attitude when it comes to culture, and a lot of it doesn't escape past the borders.

The most famous living Norwegian I can even think of is probably Anders Breivik, which is obviously not great, followed maybe by Magnus Carlsen. I don't think I could even name five without resorting to Google, and I'm relatively worldly. Do Norwegians think that's a fair assessment, do they care about that? Or prefer it like that, even?

Yet I could name a bunch of 19th century and early 20th century Norwegians. It feels weirdly backwards - Norway is more prosperous than it ever was back then, so why the cultural drought (if you aren't into metal or crime fiction, I mean)?

lizard_phunk
Oct 23, 2003

Alt Girl For Norge

Pursesnatcher posted:

Not really. You'll get your €3000 gross each month, but come June (or July, or whatever), you'll get nothing, except the Holiday Money from the previous year. If you start this job January 1st, your new employer will shell out just short of €33,000 through the whole year, while Holiday Money from your previous employer will fill the gap in that one month your new employer is not paying you for not working.

Sure sign of Norwegians: Disagreements about paid holidays.

lizard_phunk
Oct 23, 2003

Alt Girl For Norge

Jeza posted:

For a country with a high level of education, GDP per capita and standard of English, I've always thought modern Norway punched rather below its weight in terms of recognisable world figures. Most of the ones the person on the street has heard of will be from over 100 years ago. Like Finland it feels like Norway has a bit of a navel gazing attitude when it comes to culture, and a lot of it doesn't escape past the borders.

The most famous living Norwegian I can even think of is probably Anders Breivik, which is obviously not great, followed maybe by Magnus Carlsen. I don't think I could even name five without resorting to Google, and I'm relatively worldly. Do Norwegians think that's a fair assessment, do they care about that? Or prefer it like that, even?

Yet I could name a bunch of 19th century and early 20th century Norwegians. It feels weirdly backwards - Norway is more prosperous than it ever was back then, so why the cultural drought (if you aren't into metal or crime fiction, I mean)?

I think it's a fair assessment. This post is very subjective, but I think some reasons for this is:
  • Most Norwegians are raised to not stand out. For example, if you are a gifted child, you will in most cases be asked to keep your skills down to the other kids' level. You will (in general) not be praised for being extraordinarily good at things.

  • Most jobs will not reward you for being good. Your wage is decent, but you will not be rewarded for standing out. Sure, you might be picked for a higher position, but the large majority of wages are fixed with strict rules for overtime and extra work.

  • You are not supposed to ask for more than you have. This is partly a Christian attitude, and partly a result of many generations of relatively poor farmers. This means that if you aim high, people will think you are a bit silly. I'm doing a PhD and the response to this from perfect strangers (if I'm coaxed to bring it up) is "Why would you do that? Sounds stressful. Did you know that most people don't succeed in research."

  • The normal life is the gold standard. You are supposed to have a wife/husband (but not too early and not too late!), 1-3 children, a mortage and a family car. This is normal in most cultures, but one interesting thing in my experience is that people will be extremely provoked if you, for example, have no interest in buying an apartment/house. "Buying property" is an extreme life goal in my generation - and it's really, really expensive. Combined with "not standing out", "not being special" and "not wanting something different", this means (in my opinion) that most young people in Norway have a myopia that makes anything except their own navel invisible.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the economic boom due to oil is now stagnating. The state of Norway before the oil boom is incomprehensible to me (I grew up in the 90's). We were a pretty poor country (I might actually do a write-up on this later).
My point is: 30-40 years of "unexplainable" prosperity does not change the underlying attitude in a culture.

It's different if you come from a well-off family. We are taught that all people are equal, but (surprise!) this is not the case. For example, Magnus Carlsen came from a rich family in the most "high culture" area of the country (west side of Oslo area). His parents had a very international mindset and lived abroad with the children several times.

If he had grown up in some farming town, he would likely have been told to pay attention in class, not try to be better than others and be bullied for being extremely smart.

lizard_phunk fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Oct 29, 2016

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011




lizard_phunk posted:

Sure sign of Norwegians: Disagreements about paid holidays.

Soon we will begin to discuss the weather.

Bollock Monkey
Jan 21, 2007

The Almighty

Pursesnatcher posted:

Never mind that Norwegians with the means are buying health insurance in ever-increasing numbers, as those who can afford it do not trust the public health system, what with its waiting time of up to 8 hours at the municipal emergency room. Never mind that the "free healthcare" is in shambles; the doctors striking for the right not to be forced to work 20-hour shifts at a moment's notice. Never mind that "free healthcare" does not cover anything remotely related to what happens in your oral cavity; to the point where the head of the main worker's union – beacon of solidarity indeed – a couple of years back was decided to go to Hungary to get her teeth fixed; it was too expensive for her to get it done in Norway itself. And never mind that the poor generally avoid going to the doctor if they can help it, as there's still a $30-40 charge per visit. This isn't Britain NHS, to put it mildly.
Actually, this sounds a lot like the NHS in its current state. We are having a whol host of issues with funding being cut left, right and centre, and junior doctors striking to protest unsafe and unfair contracts. NHS dentists charge a minimum of ~$23 for a basic appointment, going up to ~$290 for crowns and suchlike. So, solidarity I suppose...

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Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016

Jeza posted:

For a country with a high level of education, GDP per capita and standard of English, I've always thought modern Norway punched rather below its weight in terms of recognisable world figures. Most of the ones the person on the street has heard of will be from over 100 years ago. Like Finland it feels like Norway has a bit of a navel gazing attitude when it comes to culture, and a lot of it doesn't escape past the borders.

The most famous living Norwegian I can even think of is probably Anders Breivik, which is obviously not great, followed maybe by Magnus Carlsen. I don't think I could even name five without resorting to Google, and I'm relatively worldly. Do Norwegians think that's a fair assessment, do they care about that? Or prefer it like that, even?

Yet I could name a bunch of 19th century and early 20th century Norwegians. It feels weirdly backwards - Norway is more prosperous than it ever was back then, so why the cultural drought (if you aren't into metal or crime fiction, I mean)?

This view – that all the best and brightest Norwegians are long dead – is one you share with a lot of Norwegians. We used to have the likes of Munch, Grieg, Ibsen, Henie, Sandemose, Holberg, Amundsen, Birkeland and Heyerdahl. Now we only have Breivik and Carlsen? How the mighty have fallen!

I'm not entirely sure it's an accurate view, though. People in every era have always looked to the past with a sort of longing; wondering why the present culture is such utter poo poo in comparison. But is it a fair comparison to make? The past covers so many more years; while some of the people I listed just now were about to die as the 20th century dawned, at least one was long dead, others were not even born, while others still were in the prime of their production.

Now, at this moment, there are still a number of Norwegians who are rather well known. Liv Ullmann is still going strong, even if it's been a few decades since her prime red carpet time. Kygo is apparently a thing, even if he's only had a couple of years of activity, but at least those guys in Röyksopp gained a bit of fame. Apart from crime fiction authors, Knausgård, I'm told, also sells books. We have a spate of people winning far too many gold medals at winter sports, like Koss, Dæhlie and Ulvang, who have all retired from sporting just in the past decade or two. Then there are the scientists and inventors, whose names we for some reason rarely learn until long after they're dead. Oh, and there's a ton of metalheads.

The question is: Will any of these be considered the equals of those people I listed initially? I don't know. In my personal view, they probably shouldn't, but history will be the final judge.

On the other hand...

lizard_phunk posted:

  • Most Norwegians are raised to not stand out. For example, if you are a gifted child, you will in most cases be asked to keep your skills down to the other kids' level. You will (in general) not be praised for being extraordinarily good at things.

This is also a very important factor. Apart from weather and paid holidays, the "Law of Jante" is guaranteed to pop up in every discussion about Norway. The "law" was formulated by the aforementioned writer, Aksel Sandemose, to sum up the general attitude Norwegians (and other Scandinavians) display in the face of exceptionalism. In short, "no matter what, you are worthless compared to us, and don't you dare tell us otherwise". You have to be something of a rebel to want to stand out; this is also evident in many of Ibsen's plays. I suppose you could call Grieg a good example of early Norwegian punk, simply in that he was actually a very gifted composer.

Additionally, this is not restricted to social settings. Gifted children are indeed asked to keep their skills down; the schools are also extremely focused on helping the weakest students, to the point where the better students are neglected or even penalized. Did your homework ahead of time? That's nice, now go sit in the corner and do them all over again. Not the best way to breed exceptional people at an exceptional rate.

lizard_phunk posted:

  • Most jobs will not reward you for being good. Your wage is decent, but you will not be rewarded for standing out. Sure, you might be picked for a higher position, but the large majority of wages are fixed with strict rules for overtime and extra work.

Adding to this, the vast majority of jobs pay within the range of $40,000 to $80,000, regardless of education and responsibilities, with most somewhere at the lower end. Your pay is primarily tied to your age, not your skills. Working overtime, a good way for hard workers to make some more, is forbidden by law in most cases. Add to this a tax system designed to "level the field" as detailed earlier, and you find that social mobility is, in general, not that great after all. For some perspective, if you're an executive in a successful company, or the prime minister of Norway, your gross pay won't be much more than $140,000. Of course certain individuals make heaps more, but they are hardly representative. Oh, and let's not forget that everyone can look up the taxes of anyone else – even anonymously until a couple of years ago. What you make, in Norway, is a matter of public record, so as to make sure nobody gets too successful without everyone knowing about it. The newspapers actually throw a small party every year when the lists are updated and distributed, and they compile lists of the 100 wealthiest, the 100 best paid, and the top 100 taxpayers in each of our 428 municipalities.

lizard_phunk posted:

  • You are not supposed to ask for more than you have. This is partly a Christian attitude, and partly a result of many generations of relatively poor farmers. This means that if you aim high, people will think you are a bit silly. I'm doing a PhD and the response to this from perfect strangers (if I'm coaxed to bring it up) is "Why would you do that? Sounds stressful. Did you know that most people don't succeed in research."
  • The normal life is the gold standard. You are supposed to have a wife/husband (but not too early and not too late!), 1-3 children, a mortage and a family car. This is normal in most cultures, but one interesting thing in my experience is that people will be extremely provoked if you, for example, have no interest in buying an apartment/house. "Buying property" is an extreme life goal in my generation - and it's really, really expensive. Combined with "not standing out", "not being special" and "not wanting something different", this means (in my opinion) that most young people in Norway have a myopia that makes anything except their own navel invisible.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the economic boom due to oil is now stagnating. The state of Norway before the oil boom is incomprehensible to me (I grew up in the 90's). We were a pretty poor country (I might actually do a write-up on this later).
My point is: 30-40 years of "unexplainable" prosperity does not change the underlying attitude in a culture.

It's different if you come from a well-off family. We are taught that all people are equal, but (surprise!) this is not the case. For example, Magnus Carlsen came from a rich family in the most "high culture" area of the country (west side of Oslo area). His parents had a very international mindset and lived abroad with the children several times.

If he had grown up in some farming town, he would likely have been told to pay attention in class, not try to be better than others and be bullied for being extremely smart.

All of this is very true. As mentioned, regarding social mobility: If you come from a rich family, and you drop out of school to be an unskilled, menial laborer, that's fine. You'll still get a net pay in the same general area as everyone else; maybe a tad lower. However, you won't pay much for housing, as your family will aid you in this. Later, your children can go on to do whatever they want, because the family fortune – like that of most Norwegians – is bound up in property. You have to gently caress up pretty bad to go from rich to poor, and even then you're entitled to all sorts of benefits – so you'll hardly be poor like the American homeless.

On the opposite end of the scale, someone from a poor family can display a terrifying intellectual capacity, zoom through basic and higher education (while receiving little but scorn along the way), and end up on the higher end of the pay scale. After taxes, however, net pay is in the same area as the unskilled rich kid, and without the backing of a well-off family, this person would be very hard pressed to buy a home. When the next generation comes along, they have a parent with higher education, a good pay relative to the general population, but their family's economy will still be worse off than that of the rich dropout.

In short, being extremely talented, gifted, intelligent, and so on, only gets you so far. You will be told quite explicitly to avoid standing out, even from a very young age. The fact that few Norwegians rise to true brilliance is a good reflection on this.

Alhazred posted:

Soon we will begin to discuss the weather.

Peak Norway.

Bollock Monkey posted:

Actually, this sounds a lot like the NHS in its current state. We are having a whol host of issues with funding being cut left, right and centre, and junior doctors striking to protest unsafe and unfair contracts. NHS dentists charge a minimum of ~$23 for a basic appointment, going up to ~$290 for crowns and suchlike. So, solidarity I suppose...

Ah, but dentistry is covered by the NHS. That's not the case in Norway. If you want a basic appointment, that's about £120. A crown or root canal, depending on the number of treatments required, can be as low as £800 – but is often several times that.

Pursesnatcher fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Oct 29, 2016

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