|
xthetenth posted:They are not allies, sure, but they can be potential coalition members. Sure they don't have your back reliably in all instances, but they can be worked with towards some shared goals, and if kept focused on those goals you might be able to engage them in support for other goals. Progress is progress and if you can't win on the back of firm allies, it's time to see what goals you can make a winning coalition with, and maybe work to convince coalition members to become allies. I agree with that, I'm just coming at it from a pessimistic angle. I've seen too many people get burned. Fargle, if you don't like us discussing practical matters of leftist organization, maybe you shouldn't have created the thread?
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 17:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 19:38 |
|
|
It seems to me that understanding what distinguishes the various historical and modern leftist perspectives is an important aspect of practicing effective leftism. I can understand the desire not to entertain a "there's only one way to do this" perspective, but that cuts both ways.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 17:43
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:I agree with that, I'm just coming at it from a pessimistic angle. I've seen too many people get burned. This thread is for going out and getting poo poo done. About encouraging each other and sharing resources and information to make it easier to do so. It is NOT for whining about liberals and how they aren't left enough. Cut it the gently caress out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 17:45
|
|
|
Fargle a key part of organizing effectively is how to approach liberals, to be aware of the risks of doing so and take precautions, to handle them properly. I'm a little suspicious that this is hurting your feelings.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 17:46
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:Fargle a key part of organizing effectively is how to approach liberals, to be aware of the risks of doing so and take precautions, to handle them properly. I'm a little suspicious that this is hurting your feelings. If you find HorseLord obnoxious you aren't a true leftist. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 17:48
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:That's a bit different than what I was talking about. A key part of organizing effectively is how to approach liberals, to be aware of the risks of doing so and take precautions, to handle them properly. If you don't, well, history shows us what happens. The same could be said of marxist-leninists. How about posting something useful like what to bring to a demo and how to stay safe or tips on dealing with tear gas.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 17:53
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:Fargle a key part of organizing effectively is how to approach liberals, to be aware of the risks of doing so and take precautions, to handle them properly. I'm a little suspicious that this is hurting your feelings. Then talk about warning signs and what they mean for how to approach them, what to approach them for, how to keep their buy-in, and things they're likely to leave you hanging on. This is a thread for functional advice on how to do things.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 17:54
|
|
|
Would like to request that the Southern Poverty Law Center be added to the OP. It's another social/economic justice organization that specializes in litigations. Most of their work includes mapping hate crimes and seeking justice for the victims of it, though they have gone after hate groups and people of authority through the courts. Not specifically a leftist organization, but one that'll definitely need a lot more help during a Trump administration. https://www.splcenter.org/
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:00
|
|
|
The people at standing rock are looking for any supplies you can spare.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:06
|
|
|
xthetenth posted:Then talk about warning signs and what they mean for how to approach them, what to approach them for, how to keep their buy-in, and things they're likely to leave you hanging on. This is a thread for functional advice on how to do things. Sure, and we'd be already discussing that, but it got derailed into if we should discuss it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:07
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:Social Liberalism is telling you pre-election that trump is Hitler, and telling you post-election that we need to compromise with Hitler and give him a chance. Your mixed economy remark makes me think you mean Social Democracy. I'm continuing this because there is value in understanding factions and what positions, methods, and goals will be non-starters. There is little value in sniping at people who are more or less leftist, and I think the pithy "your political philosophy is inherently against all progress!" bullshit is counterproductive. Labels are useless in activism. I mean social liberalism, in contrast to classical liberalism and neoliberalism. John Rawls' writing would fall into this category. You're just taking the current political state of the American Democratic voter and painting it with the pejorative "liberal," when the American Democratic voter does not necessarily have a coherent political philosophy. If you want to convince milquetoast American Democrats, that's not the same as fighting liberalism. I consider myself a liberal. We will almost certainly have fundamental disagreements over political theory, but almost none about short- to medium-term political action as long as you're not planning on violent revolution. I have never had the opportunity to vote for a candidate at the state or federal level who is sufficiently left for my liking; I am certainly not an enemy when it comes to pushing against fascism. I have gotten into serious arguments about racism and misogyny with "socialists". Again, labels are useless in activism.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:10
|
|
|
MizPiz posted:Would like to request that the Southern Poverty Law Center be added to the OP. It's another social/economic justice organization that specializes in litigations. Most of their work includes mapping hate crimes and seeking justice for the victims of it, though they have gone after hate groups and people of authority through the courts. Not specifically a leftist organization, but one that'll definitely need a lot more help during a Trump administration. Done. TomViolence posted:The same could be said of marxist-leninists. How about posting something useful like what to bring to a demo and how to stay safe or tips on dealing with tear gas. I'm going to text dump the post on tear gas for easy reading here because it's thoroughly excellent advice. I'm also going to add both links to the op. quote:Because tear gas is a commonly-used dispersal tactic all around the world, here is a primer containing all the basic information you need to deal with it before, during, and after exposure: Taken from the following source: https://www.patreon.com/posts/quick-and-dirty-6057497
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:11
|
|
|
TomViolence posted:The people at standing rock are looking for any supplies you can spare. Also adding this to the OP.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:14
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I consider myself a liberal. We will almost certainly have fundamental disagreements over political theory, but almost none about short- to medium-term political action as long as you're not planning on violent revolution. Political practice comes from political theory always. I'm not interested in your insistence that you're a "good one", that's something all liberals say, even the ones that gently caress people over, and being offended when reminded that is a good sign of a bad one. I'm interested in your action - if you're trustworthy you won't need to say so because you'll prove it in your actions. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Nov 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:14
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:Political practice comes from political theory always. This is EXACTLY what the thread rules in OP say NOT to do. SHUT. THE. gently caress. UP. EDIT: This goes for anyone else who feels like dragging this kind of crap into the thread too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:17
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:I'm not interested in your insistence that you're a "good one", that's something all liberals say, even the ones that gently caress people over. I'm interested in your action. It's something everyone says. We're in agreement. Back to your regularly scheduled programming!
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:18
|
|
|
One of the key groups that are usually sympathetic towards anything to do with poverty, drug abuse, oppression, etc. are Churches. Spend enough time in any community, and you'll quickly learn which churches are the most important, which ones people attend, which priests/ministers/pastors/deacons/whatever are the ones folks care about. These people tend to be pillars of the community, and command a vast, captive audience every week. Some of them are right out; if you're in an area with a Bapti$t Megachurch, for example, don't even bother. But most of the Anglican, Presbyterian, and Methodist churches are very sympathetic towards traditionally liberal causes if they're given the right coat of paint. This will involve some bible digging, some quote mining, and a bit of prep for the arguments that can be mustered against your points, but often if you come "looking for help" and let them work alongside, you'll quickly have a vast pool of people do draw on for food, shelter, money, labor, etc. If you're careful about terminology and allow them to take credit, well, who gives a poo poo if the goal is being achieved? For example, I'm on the board setting up a homeless shelter in my area. It will be the only homeless shelter in the entire county. There is a nasty and persistent myth that homelessness is a city problem, and that everyone homeless just migrates to one of the big cities to get service. Needless to say, this isn't true. We've got folks living out of their cars, living in fields, campgrounds, in barns, tramping, etc. These folks have no resources to draw on, because they aren't in a city, and even cell phone signal can be hard to find depending on where you're at. It's a problem. The shelter will be run by a coalition of churches, because they have the money, the space, the volunteers, etc. I'd prefer if it were secular, but that simply isn't an option out here. I'm not going to set up a separate, competing shelter to try and stick it to them. My work with them also means I've strengthened my ties to them, so if I need another favor, they're in my contact list, I know them by first name, they aren't scared of me... Is this perfect? No, not by any means. As I said, I'd rather have a secular shelter, staffed by atheists. But that isn't going to happen. The demographics of my area will not allow that to happen. So, rather than wait 20 years for the next generation to die off, I'll work with who is here right now, and which allows me to get closer and help more people in the future. When you're starving, only an fool refuses half a loaf of bread because they demand the whole thing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:20
|
|
|
Toph Bei Fong posted:(church stuff) To add to this, aside from christian churches there may be other religious communities doing charitable work in you area, such as mosques, synagogues and gurdwaras that might be only too happy for folks to pitch in, even if they're not counted among the faithful. If nothing else you can help to direct those in need towards these services being offered. The same goes for food banks and homeless shelters -- they shouldn't be necessary but for many folk they are, and if a homeless or poverty-stricken person gets a meal or a place to sleep it's all to the good.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:29
|
|
|
Toph Bei Fong posted:One of the key groups that are usually sympathetic towards anything to do with poverty, drug abuse, oppression, etc. are Churches. Spend enough time in any community, and you'll quickly learn which churches are the most important, which ones people attend, which priests/ministers/pastors/deacons/whatever are the ones folks care about. These people tend to be pillars of the community, and command a vast, captive audience every week. Some of them are right out; if you're in an area with a Bapti$t Megachurch, for example, don't even bother. But most of the Anglican, Presbyterian, and Methodist churches are very sympathetic towards traditionally liberal causes if they're given the right coat of paint. This will involve some bible digging, some quote mining, and a bit of prep for the arguments that can be mustered against your points, but often if you come "looking for help" and let them work alongside, you'll quickly have a vast pool of people do draw on for food, shelter, money, labor, etc. If you're careful about terminology and allow them to take credit, well, who gives a poo poo if the goal is being achieved? Completely correct - this doesn't just mean christian churches but any mainstream religion. Sikhs do incredible work feeding the poor.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:30
|
|
|
Sorry, didn't mean to sound exclusionary there. Christian Churches are the only ones I have direct experience working with, but no doubt other religions are similar. Religion is still a powerful force, and should be used for our advantage.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:34
|
|
|
Doorknob Slobber posted:One of the big problems with progressive or left organizing is that its such a broad category. ... but now I'm going to try to be involved in as many left groups as I can because its stupid how fractious the community is. I think my main goal will be trying to get these various groups to just. loving. work. together. Quoting myself, but never has this been more relevant in the thread and in politics in general. Take your left politics as far as you're willing or comfortable, let others take theirs as far as they are willing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:48
|
|
|
There are some elements of the radical left trying to get a US-wide national general strike on the go starting on inauguration day, January 20th, but I don't know if it's getting enough traction outside of far left circles to be a thing. For those in the UK, Nige is pulling a Moseley and marching on the supreme court with a bunch of fascists and hangers-on on December 5th. If you're in the area and interested in a counter-demo I can only suggest getting in contact with your local antifa. There's no way these poujadist thumbheads should be allowed to own the streets.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:49
|
|
|
What's up with the left now that Donald Trump got elected? Liberal "progressive" people protesting in the streets, causing violence and assaulting Trump supporters. Is that liberal or progressive? They're doing exactly the same things they accuse Trump supporters of doing. But Trump supporters haven't done any of those things after Trump got elected. I used to consider myself more left than right, but after witnessing the horrible behaviour of the left and so called "liberals" after Trump election, I'm reconsidering my position. I don't want to be associated with any of what the current left is doing. It's so hateful and irrational. The media has really caused most of this, with their demonization and lies about Trump. Like for example, how he's against LGBT community when infact he's not. Or that he's a racist, when he's only said he wants to deport criminals who are in the country illegally. Same thing every president has done. But the media has twisted that into something it's not. And people are too stupid to realize it. They just believe everything they read without thinking for themselves. It's a sad state of affairs, but really shows something important. The mainstream media truly isn't objective. It has a very clear agenda, and facts don't matter to it. Stockholm Syndrome fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Nov 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:54
|
|
|
Stockholm Syndrome posted:What's up with the left now that Donald Trump got elected? Liberal "progressive" people protesting in the streets, causing violence and assaulting Trump supporters. Is that liberal or progressive? They're doing exactly the same things they accuse Trump supporters of doing. But Trump supporters haven't done any of those things after Trump got elected. This guy here is who the OP is mad I warned y'all about. Someone else post that MLK bit about white moderates because I can't be bothered. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Nov 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:56
|
|
|
Stockholm Syndrome posted:What's up with the left now that Donald Trump got elected? Liberal "progressive" people protesting in the streets, causing violence and assaulting Trump supporters. Is that liberal or progressive? They're doing exactly the same things they accuse Trump supporters of doing. But Trump supporters haven't done any of those things after Trump got elected. Nice username/post combo! not nice
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 18:59
|
|
|
Literally the guy who''ll betray you, right on time
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:02
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:Literally the guy who''ll betray you, right on time I don't feel I've betrayed anything, I still believe in leftist values. But those aren't being shown at all here, all I see is hate and the attitude that "we're right and if you voted for Trump you deserve to have your rear end kicked". Didn't know the left was for violence. The ends don't justify the means, much less so when we're talking about physical violence against someone who voted differently to you in a democratic election. Something is very wrong with the way these liberal democrats are thinking. But I give them a partial pass, they've been brainwashed by the media. I mean, it's incredible how the media and the whole presidential campaign with all the dirt and lies has caused some people to think that Donald Trump is some kind of anti-christ. I mean, if you took everything he said seriously you didn't really get it. That was his style in the campaign, and it was very effective. Stockholm Syndrome fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Nov 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:06
|
|
|
I've seen a number of articles/videos over the last few days condemning the tone/approach of the left. In general I agree there's a lot to unpack, and plenty of room for improvement here. Anyone seen anything approaching it from the other side, which is how to sell the younger left on what they'll consider to be 'tone policing' from moderate leftists? I have a feeling it's not going to go over well.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:07
|
|
|
Stockholm Syndrome posted:I don't feel I've betrayed anything, I still believe in leftist values. But those aren't being shown at all here, all I see is hate and the attitude that "we're right and if you voted for Trump you deserve to have your rear end kicked". Didn't know the left was for violence. You are the liberal the OP is mad I pointed out exists, I guess you've been beneficial for once by proving my point.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:08
|
|
|
Stockholm Syndrome posted:Racist apologetics. This is not the thread for you or for this discussion. Take it to USPOL if you want to insist on it. You are not welcome here.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:10
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:You are the liberal the OP is mad I pointed out exists, I guess you've been beneficial for once by proving my point. No, actually I'm not  I'm laughing at the leftist liberals right now
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:10
|
|
|
Captain Fargle posted:This is not the thread for you or for this discussion. Take it to USPOL if you want to insist on it. Wow, the left being so inclusive again You have no self-awareness do you?
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:11
|
|
|
Captain Fargle posted:This is not the thread for you or for this discussion. Take it to USPOL if you want to insist on it. I warned you but you wouldn't listen.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:13
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:You are the liberal the OP is mad I pointed out exists, I guess you've been beneficial for once by proving my point. I do not need you to inform me that racist, homophobic fuckwads exist.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:13
|
|
|
Captain Fargle posted:I do not need you to inform me that racist, homophobic fuckwads exist. Who's that? Also, those have existed for all time. Most of them aren't even white  I'm much more concerned with the violent ones who think that voting for Trump means you're a homophobe or a racist, because that simply isn't true and is incredibly harmful and toxic to say. But obviously you don't give a gently caress about that. You just read your HuffPo and take everything you hear from the media as a truth. In other words, you're brainwashed.
Stockholm Syndrome fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Nov 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:15
|
|
|
Captain Fargle posted:I do not need you to inform me that racist, homophobic fuckwads exist. Racism and homophobia isn't even what he's performed ITT, only the liberalism I warned you about, the liberalism of pearl-clutching "I agree with you but I'm SHOCKED that you would do this" and calling 911. I'm well aware that he's doing it as an act and that he's a straight up reactionary, it's a common tactic. It says something about that strain of liberalism that reactionaries can perform it to further their goals, and be near impossible to tell apart from those who act this way out of sincerity. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Nov 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:18
|
|
|
Stockholm Syndrome posted:I don't feel I've betrayed anything, I still believe in leftist values. But those aren't being shown at all here, all I see is hate and the attitude that "we're right and if you voted for Trump you deserve to have your rear end kicked". Didn't know the left was for violence. The ends don't justify the means, much less so when we're talking about physical violence against someone who voted differently to you in a democratic election. Something is very wrong with the way these liberal democrats are thinking. But I give them a partial pass, they've been brainwashed by the media. I mean, it's incredible how the media and the whole presidential campaign with all the dirt and lies has caused some people to think that Donald Trump is some kind of anti-christ. I mean, if you took everything he said seriously you didn't really get it. That was his style in the campaign, and it was very effective. If you still believe in leftist values, I fail to understand how those are compatible with allowing a man endorsed by the Ku Klux Klan into high office. It's not enough to just clap your hands and believe. Fascism can't be stopped with the ballot box alone, it has to be faced in the streets and undercut by real solutions to the social ills and anxieties it feeds off. For content: Care about the plight of the refugees that are being scapegoated to justify all this poo poo? Refugee Council USA Refugee Action (UK) Caveat: There may be other, better organisations to contribute to with regards to refugees and if so, feel free to post them up. These are just the reults of two minutes googling on my part.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:20
|
|
|
Not trying to stoke any fires here, but this attitude is really common within the Democratic party, and it's why we need to get more people in to stand up to them. They're the same people who wrung their hands when they saw civil rights sit ins. Today they're complaining that protests interfere with emergency services.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:23
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:Racism and homophobia isn't even what he's performed ITT, only the liberalism I warned you about, the liberalism of pearl-clutching "I agree with you but I'm SHOCKED that you would do this" and calling 911. I'm well aware that he's doing it as an act and that he's a straight up reactionary, it's a common tactic. I haven't done either of those things ever. See how you're assuming things that aren't true? Take a look at yourself before you accuse others of stuff you have no clue about. It's bad arguing, you know that right? Have you seen the videos of black protesters beating up white people who voted for Trump? Don't you think there's something very wrong with that? It was a democratic presidential election for fucks sake, you don't have any right to do that. But these people think they do, because "they're right" and Trump supporters for whatever reason are wrong. Brainwashed people. Trump isn't a racist or a homophobe and neither are his supporters in general. Jesus christ... (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 19:38 |
|
|
HorseLord posted:Racism and homophobia isn't even what he's performed ITT, only the liberalism I warned you about, the liberalism of pearl-clutching "I agree with you but I'm SHOCKED that you would do this" and calling 911. I'm well aware that he's doing it as an act and that he's a straight up reactionary, it's a common tactic. We are all aware. You are not some kind of unique genius and we don't need your smug warnings about how idiots like him exist. And yes, apologizing away the racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, anti-semitic nature of Trump, his campaign and his allies does count as racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia and anti-semitism.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 19:24
|
|