|
Pardon, I don't make many threads because I don't have much confidence in my thread-making ability but this is something I think a lot about lately due to the election. I don't believe there are any posters on here deluded enough to say Trump isn't several degrees of awful and bigoted. Yet minorities voted for him. Women voted for him. Some immigrants and Muslims voted for him. This is not "why did Trump win?" round 1 billion. You see this same kind of attitude everywhere. From female MRAs to gay Conservatives, they use their minority card to justify how they undercut and hurt others. "I'm a woman who hates feminism so naturally I'm right. I'm a LGBTQ person who pals around with the Religious Right and therefore they can't be evil." And, in spite of the fact a lot of Trump support came from "anti-PC" people who feel it is their right to be as offensive as people, these people will naturally bring up how they were called mean names like Uncle Tom for what they did. My question is...what is the correct approach to take here? These people legitimize hateful groups and individuals by supporting them. There are also genuine self-hating people here, with some semi-notable examples being Milo Yiannopoulos or Ben Shapiro, both of whom have expressed Antisemitism. But if you call them out on this, you're entering dangerous waters and are likely to be labeled as a bigot yourself. I mean, people should have the right to side with whomever they please but it seems to me that if you exercising your rights will hurt others that you should be protecting, it should be fair game to call them out on this. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Nov 16, 2016 |
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 15:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 01:51 |
|
|
What if... your world view is not the Objective Right Way To See Things... and the first step to engaging people you cannot understand is not to complain that they are incomprehensible.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 16:29
|
|
|
Malcom X spoke about this in terms I'd only allude to but I guess the point is that if you think someone is acting contrary to the interests of the group you decide they belong to, then they may be doing it out of self-interest. I don't think you can really call someoune out on that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 16:42
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:What if... your world view is not the Objective Right Way To See Things... and the first step to engaging people you cannot understand is not to complain that they are incomprehensible. What does this have to do with anything they said?
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 17:04
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:What does this have to do with anything they said? nothing, it's just internet grievance airing
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 17:10
|
|
|
Talk to people you don't agree with without allowing it to devolve instantly into personal attacks. Instead of just applying some negative label and categorizing them in your mind as some flavor of irredeemable bigot, instead engage those who are actually willing to be engaged (they do exist) and actually try to have a rational discussion. This is easiest to do with people you actually know in real life but it is actually possible to change people's minds even on the internet. It may not work but just shutting down and applying a negative label instead of engaging will definitely not work. Also people will vote for terrible human beings who promise to blow up a system of power that they hate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 17:13
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:My question is...what is the correct approach to take here? I guess, to be more helpful, maybe look at it like this. What do you want to accomplish wrt the people you're talking about? Do you want to draw them into endless indignant arguments that end with you feeling (like you did before you went in) that they're racist/sexist morons and them feeling (like they may not have but certainly do afterwards) like you're a self-righteous jackass? If so, just read D&D and you will be well on your way in no time. If you want to accomplish literally anything else you have to try to understand them as they understand themselves. That means respecting them, leaving aside your sense that your world view is superior to theirs, listening to them without arguing, etc.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 17:30
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:What does this have to do with anything they said? The OP is convinced of the superiority of their world view and cannot concieve of why people they think should think the way they do in fact think and act differently. It sounds like OP wants to engage with those people, and if so the best way to do that is to let go of some assumptions and try to understand them as they understand themselves.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 17:36
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:nothing, it's just internet grievance airing Naw not really, it's good advice.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 17:37
|
|
|
Apologies if I've misunderstood you but your OP feels like an attempt to figure out a politically correct way to shame gays or minorities for adopting conservative or reactionary viewpoints on the premise that they should know better and also that they should be held accountable for legitimizing viewpoints that you think are wrong. Perhaps the solution here is to target their ideas and arguments and to treat them, as best you can, the same way you'd treat a generic white male conservative? Do we really need a specialized set of techniques for trying to subtly frame minorities as traitors?
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 18:49
|
|
|
Helsing posted:Do we really need a specialized set of techniques for trying to subtly frame minorities as traitors? The standard leftist techniques work fine for that, hth.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 18:52
|
|
|
this guy sure doesn't have any grievances at all no sir
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 19:09
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:this guy sure doesn't have any grievances at all no sir Passing the time on this internet comedy forum. Maybe the OP will come back and we can talk about whatever he was on about but until then /shrug.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 19:14
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:I guess, to be more helpful, maybe look at it like this. Well yeah, I've been in enough arguments to know that self-righteous moralizing and attacks are the fastest way to getting nowhere. Insulting a person will turn them against you no matter what you have to say because they don't want to concede and thus legitimize your insults. But maybe I've spent too much time on internet forums (I'm a very stereotypical nerd and not good in social situations IRL) but it's hard to find people who genuinely want to listen. I understand economic hardship was a big reason for Trump's win (I'm from Michigan) so the people who only care about getting their livelihood back are gonna be reasonable enough if you show them your side will do that for them. But "social conservatives?" That's about morals, religion and other very nebulous topics. The things that seem self-evident to me aren't so plain for them. I just want to figure out how to explain to some of my fellows in the LGBTQ community that supporting a party that has religious fanatics who hate you for existing isn't very wise.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 19:41
|
|
|
If the person thinks Jesus is telling them to vote for Trump because of unborn babies then just accept they probably aren't going to view things your way. Also they are not a majority of the population.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 20:31
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:But if you call them out on this, you're entering dangerous waters and are likely to be labeled as a bigot yourself. I mean, people should have the right to side with whomever they please but it seems to me that if you exercising your rights will hurt others that you should be protecting, it should be fair game to call them out on this. Expecting people of a certain minority group to always to always act in the interests of said group, no matter the cost, does, in fact, make you a bigot. If someone acts in their own self interest, then you're not going to win them over by shaming them. You need to convince them that acting in the interests of the group is actually better for them than acting out of self interest.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 20:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 01:51 |
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:But maybe I've spent too much time on internet forums (I'm a very stereotypical nerd and not good in social situations IRL) but it's hard to find people who genuinely want to listen. I understand economic hardship was a big reason for Trump's win (I'm from Michigan) so the people who only care about getting their livelihood back are gonna be reasonable enough if you show them your side will do that for them. So... there are really big differences between communicating on forums and communicating in person. Here on SA for instance, you post an impersonal message and then people engage or not. Mostly not, but you never encounter the people who aren't willing to engage (to agree with you or argue with you or whatever they want to do) with what you have to say. It makes it seem like you connect better online but really you're only catching the attention of the few anonymous nerds who are willing to argue impersonally with another anonymous nerd on a comedy forum. There's never a real connection so, and this is important, you never get experience at making that connection. And the connection is everything when you're talking to someone in person. Before someone will be willing to listen to you in a manner other than "I'll politely hear you out until I can change the subject or escape" or alternately "I am getting pissed because you're assaulting my values", you need to establish a rapport. A lot could be said about that (and has been, by people a lot more capable than me) but IMO it boils down to two things. You need to honestly respect them, and you need to listen to them FIRST - without judging or arguing - and honestly try to understand where they're coming from. Then you might be able to talk about your POV and get them to consider things in a different way.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2016 21:12
|
|