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 Skip to Page 2 for HBO Airing Discussion. Page 1 is full of Spoilers! Title sequence (which owns): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2btMNaFmYZk Alternate subtitle: Pious and I Know It The Young Pope is a European (Italian-French-Spanish, apparently) drama series created and entirely directed by Paolo Sorrentino (most well-known for writing and directing The Great Beauty and Youth). It follows the newly-elected first American Pope, Pius XIII aka Lenny Belardo (played by Jude Law) and other high-up members in the Vatican as they attempt to deal with his forceful, erratic, and conservative (even for a Catholic) style of command. Other major characters include Sister Mary (Diane Keaton), the head of the orphanage Lenny grew up in and now his personal secretary, Angelo Voiello (Silvio Orlando), the Cardinal Secretary of State, Andrew Dussolier (Scott Shepherd), a fellow orphan with Lenny and current missionary, and Michael Spencer (James Cromwell), a mentor of Lenny's through his time in the church who expected to receive the Pope position instead of him. The whole thing has aired in a ton of European countries (including the UK cos we still in there for now), but it doesn't premiere in America until January 15th, so we're gonna have some spoiler rules as detailed by our overlord X-O: all discussion of an episode should be in spoilers until that episode has aired in the US. This will mean a lot of black bars for two months, but it's the fairest way to do it I think. Also make sure to mark your spoilers so people know what episode you're discussing or where they have to have seen up to. I'll kick it off with some general spoiler-free thoughts: this show's great! It's extremely bizarre, easily one of the weirdest things I've seen all year, but also hilarious, intense (especially in Jude Law's performance, which is the best he's ever given), and absolutely gorgeous to look at. Basically it's Sorrentino on the small screen. The characters are very well-drawn yet almost constantly enigmatic, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how the third act of the season plays out (I've seen 7 eps, which I think is more than anyone else so far, hence not starting any actual discussion yet). Definitely one of the most fun, unique, and absolutely weird shows of the year. Watch it! Somebody fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Nov 23, 2016 19:17
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The ads for this all seem to be hinting at "What if the Pope was evil?" as the premise.
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Nov 23, 2016 21:29
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He is kind of evil in many ways, but they do humanise him a bunch too. But he's a fuckin jerk for sure.
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Nov 23, 2016 21:53
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I think the ads are a bit misleading in regards to the tone of the show. They make it look like House of Cards, and while Vatican politics are a big part of it, I'd say the similarities to House of Cards are very small and exist only on a basic level. Lenny, the rear end in a top hat he is most of the time, has surprised me numerous times by having these moments of ultimate humanity that actually make him seem above it all as you'd think a Pope should ideally be. I've gotten through episode five already, going to hit up episode six probably tonight. With a short work week I might end up running through all of them by this weekend even though I was kind of liking taking a slow burn with it. Also, here's a couple of great non plot spoilery clips. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFMDVH4lqSU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmFcUUIVIeQ X-O fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 22:00
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This show is God Tier. It's absolutely incredible.
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Nov 24, 2016 04:27
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Binged through this last week. Maybe the best series I've watched this year, certainly the most visually stunning.
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Nov 24, 2016 09:15
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Well, it's another show about power, male ego, and a world of ambiguous moral struggles, but not at all as tiresome as the genre can get. The forays into magical realism show how the creators willing to get beyond that, but it's also something that they could have used for much more. It certainly beats Borgias and Borgia: Faith and Fear with one hand tied behind its back.
BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 25, 2016 20:16
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I'm thinking every episode of this show is better than the last. Wasn't sure anything was going to top episode six which had a number of great scenes (Lenny sparring with the Italian PM, Lenny and the schism threat) and some real emotional stuff also when he accidentally dropped baby Pius my heart almost stopped for real but then episode seven was even better. And tonight I watched episode eight and Lenny's speech near the end was loving amazing in the complete opposite kind of way that every other speech he's made has been. Goddammit. Poor Dussolier 
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Nov 27, 2016 00:05
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Only two episodes in, but I am absolutely hooked. It's the first thing I've watched in a good long while where I am left honestly wondering what's going to happen next and while I'm just utterly perplexed it's hugely engrossing.
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Nov 30, 2016 09:50
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This show was so amazing. I am about as un-emotional and atheist as you can get and this show made me cry multiple times and briefly consider converting to Catholicism. What an amazing show. I assume there will only be one season?
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Dec 2, 2016 21:49
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Nope it's already been renewed. I still have the last two episodes to go. Still think every episode has been better than the last.
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Dec 2, 2016 22:56
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Are the parts where the other Vatican guys speak Italian or latin or whatever to each other not supposed to be subtitled? I'm at the bit in the first episode where these two old guys are talking to each other but there are no subs and I don't know whether my player is hosed or not.
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Dec 4, 2016 00:58
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I, uh, found this site useful. Ahem.
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Dec 4, 2016 01:23
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Thanks mate.
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Dec 4, 2016 01:25
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Yeah, if you don't have subtitles you're gonna be loving lost in this show.
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Dec 4, 2016 02:12
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D-Pad posted:This show was so amazing. I am about as un-emotional and atheist as you can get and this show made me cry multiple times and briefly consider converting to Catholicism. I'm legit sad that Jude Law isn't a charismatic reactionary mystic and Pope.
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Dec 4, 2016 02:21
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I just finished the last episode. Best show of the year for me. No question. The last couple episodes are just beautiful in a way at times like nothing else I've seen this year. As much a love when Lenny is a bastard, it makes his moments of humanity that much more impressive. The speech in Africa was just amazing. I love this show so much. I can't wait to watch it all over again when it airs on HBO.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:07
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The first episode of this was tight. Can't wait for finals to be over to watch the rest.
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Dec 6, 2016 23:46
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I just finished episode 2 of this and I still have no idea what is going on or what the plot is supposed to be or even what the tone of the show is. Am I supposed to be taking this seriously because I am and I want it to be and it mostly is but then it does things like have a kangaroo hop around the vatican. I want him to lay some righteous smackdown and start a modern crusade or some twisted serious poo poo but I still can't even peg if he is supposed to even actually believe in god.
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Dec 12, 2016 07:26
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precision posted:This show is God Tier. It's absolutely incredible. OK, I haven't seen it yet but how the hell is the title of this thread not "The Young Pope - This show is God Tier"? The joke is way better.
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Dec 12, 2016 17:34
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Because the thread was made before that post?
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Dec 12, 2016 18:45
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I noticed the Las Mudas backlot from Westworld also makes an appearance in the first season of The Young Pope. One God, multiple timelines.
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Dec 13, 2016 02:26
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Well thread renaming is a thing for a reason... provided a mod decides to.Caufman posted:I noticed the Las Mudas backlot from Westworld also makes an appearance in the first season of The Young Pope. Delos is totally going to close Pope World due to it's limited appeal.
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Dec 13, 2016 03:38
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Still going through and I keep getting distracted wondering if they actually filmed this in the Vatican or what and if they did how on earth they managed that.
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Dec 13, 2016 05:44
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drunken officeparty posted:I just finished episode 2 of this and I still have no idea what is going on or what the plot is supposed to be or even what the tone of the show is. Am I supposed to be taking this seriously because I am and I want it to be and it mostly is but then it does things like have a kangaroo hop around the vatican. I want him to lay some righteous smackdown and start a modern crusade or some twisted serious poo poo but I still can't even peg if he is supposed to even actually believe in god. Correct. At least, if my experience was any indication. Enjoy the ride?
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Dec 13, 2016 09:33
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drunken officeparty posted:I just finished episode 2 of this and I still have no idea what is going on or what the plot is supposed to be or even what the tone of the show is. Am I supposed to be taking this seriously because I am and I want it to be and it mostly is but then it does things like have a kangaroo hop around the vatican. I want him to lay some righteous smackdown and start a modern crusade or some twisted serious poo poo but I still can't even peg if he is supposed to even actually believe in god. A man becomes Pope and defies all the compromises and niceties of politics. It sounds trite like that, but it's not very complicated.
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Dec 13, 2016 10:09
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drunken officeparty posted:I just finished episode 2 of this and I still have no idea what is going on or what the plot is supposed to be or even what the tone of the show is. Am I supposed to be taking this seriously because I am and I want it to be and it mostly is but then it does things like have a kangaroo hop around the vatican. I want him to lay some righteous smackdown and start a modern crusade or some twisted serious poo poo but I still can't even peg if he is supposed to even actually believe in god. What it means to believe in God is definitely a question worth considering, and I'm impressed by the answers the characters give about their calling. For Lenny, he has contradictory actions which show both his theism and atheism. He gets away with this because he is a fictional character, but I at least can empathize with his contradictions. It'll be interesting to find out what you think of him by the end of the series, if you make it that far. For me, after just a single watch thru, Lenny is as much a believer as a silent and invisible God needs him to be. It is enough to recognize the divinity behind the smile of children.
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Dec 14, 2016 10:05
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This show is pretty incredible, and seems to revel in defying categorization. It starts off great, and just continues to improve. Best thing Jude Law has ever done, and easily one of the best things I've seen in a year of good-rear end television.
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Dec 15, 2016 22:11
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I'm curious why Sister Mary told little Andrew to call him Ma, but she told little Lenny to call her Sister Mary. Andrew arrived at the orphanage before Lenny, so did she become less friendly and more formal between their arrivals?
Caufman fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Jan 5, 2017 |
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Jan 5, 2017 12:49
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I just finished. Jude Law was amazing, as was Moleface Voiello and I liked the PR woman too. I am super interested in Vatican stuff in general. The scenery was great and I still wonder if and how they ever filmed in the real Vatican. The Pope costumes were badass and I want a set of those white pajama sweatsuits. But I still have no loving clue what the point, plot, theme, message, moral, or any other word like that is. drunken officeparty fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 07:00
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drunken officeparty posted:I just finished. Jude Law was amazing, as was Moleface Voiello and I liked the PR woman too. I am super interested in Vatican stuff in general. The scenery was great and I still wonder if and how they ever filmed in the real Vatican. The Pope costumes were badass and I want a set of those white pajama sweatsuits. There's a short behind the scenes clip I saw on an Italian website that showed them filming on partial sets with green screen for the Vatican stuff.
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Jan 6, 2017 10:12
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According to IMDB, not a single shot was filmed at the real Vatican, which is an impressive technical achievement.drunken officeparty posted:But I still have no loving clue what the point, plot, theme, message, moral, or any other word like that is. It's a challenging show so far, no doubt. After several watch-thrus, I see that there are so many multi-dimensional characters and storylines that The Young Pope goes beyond a single definable message or moral, so perhaps it would be more constructive to focus on a more singular, more narrowly defined question first. Several weeks ago you wondered if Lenny actually believes in God. I think you're right to wonder, since this is a central mystery and struggle that Lenny privately wrestles with throughout the season. His spiritual father, Michael Spencer, does identify in the Africa episode that Lenny is going through a spiritual crisis of doubt. But unlike most depictions of atheists, Lenny's doubts do not come from an attachment to worldly pleasure or from a lack of scientifically verifiable proof of the existence of God. In fact, he's quite comfortable at dismissing worldly pleasure, and maybe even more comfortable with the many ways God is absent. But Lenny is continuously troubled by his parents' abandonment and the lack of reunion/reconciliation, right up until the end at his collapse in Venice. It's this dilemma which keeps him from having the same level of faith as, say, Sister Mary or Fr. Gutierrez. Despite these doubts, he still has a consistent, revolutionizing love for the Church and a scorn for worldly idolatry, even from the start. Through the first season, he even learns the importance of coming off as less of a jerk!
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Jan 6, 2017 14:02
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:A man becomes Pope and defies all the compromises and niceties of politics. It sounds trite like that, but it's not very complicated. A man becomes Pope and defies all historical Christian Orthodoxy. That's how I'd describe it. I think that Lenny is a villain, is genuinely evil in a deluded sort of way, and the fact that people seem to take moments of fallibility as "humanizing" as though all of his other actions aren't "human" seems to me a very irrational way of looking at his behavior.
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Jan 6, 2017 15:42
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Caufman posted:
If he has a revolutionizing love for the Church, why would he humiliate the Cardinals by having them all kiss his foot directly after making a speech deliberately inciteful and hateful?
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Jan 6, 2017 15:44
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For the institution itself, not the people who make it up at this current moment, I suppose.
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Jan 6, 2017 15:57
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Welcome, CountFosco. I know you and I have different views on Lenny. I respect yours. He is not a real Pope, after all, and so not a real, ensouled Christian who I have to worry over. Paolo Sorrentino, the showcreator, is a real person, though, and I do not believe he created Lenny to be a malicious, Satan-following villain to mislead real people. Last time we spoke, you had only seen clips of the show. Have you watched it in its completeness now? CountFosco posted:If he has a revolutionizing love for the Church, why would he humiliate the Cardinals by having them all kiss his foot directly after making a speech deliberately inciteful and hateful? I would not characterize his speech to the Cardinals as hateful, but inciting is accurate. The Cardinals in The Young Pope needed a harsh lesson in humility and obligation, two virtues that they have all made vows to commit. Each one of them could have taken a different vocation. They could have gone into the wilderness like John the Baptist to preach alone the coming of the Lord, but instead they became priests and princes of the Catholic Church, who swear obligation to their religious superior, the successor of Peter, who is chosen by God the Holy Spirit and not the politicking of Cardinals. Here is a portion of his speech that I identified strongly with. What do you see? That’s the door. The only way in. Small and extremely uncomfortable. And anyone who wants to know us has to find out how to get through that door. Brother Cardinals, we need to go back to being prohibited. Inaccessible and mysterious. That’s the only way we can once again become desirable. That is the only way great love stories are born. And I don’t want any more part-time believers. I want great love stories! I want fanatics for God! Because fanaticism is love. Everything else is strictly a surrogate, and it stays outside the Church. With the attitudes of the last Papacy, the Church won for itself great expressions of fondness from the masses. It became popular. Isn’t that wonderful, you might be thinking! We received plenty of esteem and lots of friendship. I have no idea what to do with the friendship of the whole wide world. What I want is absolute love and total devotion to God. Could that mean a Church only for the few? That’s a hypothesis, and a hypothesis isn’t the same as reality. But even this hypothesis isn’t so scandalous. I say: better to have a few that are reliable than to have a great many that are distractable and indifferent. The public squares have been jam-packed, but the hearts have been emptied of God. You can’t measure love with numbers, you can only measure it in terms of intensity, in terms of blind loyalty to the imperative. It's not the most heartwarming sermon I've listened to, but I at least was challenged by his intensity. The Narrow Door is a Jesus-spoken gospel metaphor. I was especially challenged by the way Lenny mentions the popularity of past modern Popes. I love Francis and Benedict and John Paul, but I was also exhorted by Lenny to remember that popularity is not the same as devotion to God and God's imperative. I'm very grateful that Lenny is a fictional pope, too, since hearing that sermon from a real Pope may truly be too much. If Lenny does nothing (or less than nothing) for you, very good, that may be wholly right. For me, at least, he is a compelling contrast of the grim, serious demands of a God that is love, so please pray for me, brother CountFosco. Caufman fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 16:40
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Caufman posted:Welcome, CountFosco. I know you and I have different views on Lenny. I respect yours. He is not a real Pope, after all, and so not a real, ensouled Christian who I have to worry over. Paolo Sorrentino, the showcreator, is a real person, though, and I do not believe he created Lenny to be a malicious, Satan-following villain to mislead real people. That speech is riddled with heresy. Absolutely riddled. What do you see? That’s the door. The only way in. Small and extremely uncomfortable. And anyone who wants to know us has to find out how to get through that door. All well and good, although Protestants and Orthodox might quibble with the RCC as being the only door, but sure, fine. Brother Cardinals, we need to go back to being prohibited. Inaccessible and mysterious. That’s the only way we can once again become desirable. That is the only way great love stories are born. And I don’t want any more part-time believers. I want great love stories! I want fanatics for God! Because fanaticism is love. Everything else is strictly a surrogate, and it stays outside the Church. To make the church "inaccessible and mysterious" is completely antithetical to the historic openness of the church and echoes the gnostics of the first centuries, who made their Christianity inaccessible and mysterious and charged fees for education on it. Further, it shouldn't be desirable because it's mysterious, but because it's true. To deliberately obscure something in order to make it seem like something else is duplicitous. "I don't want any more part-time believers" This is a form of rigorism, first expressed by the Donatists and crops up again throughout history. Next, we see him say "fanaticism is love" which is just sophistry. It would be one thing if here were calling for a renewed passion, but fanaticism? The chief characteristic of fanaticism is it's uncritical zeal, which makes sense considering that he doesn't want to be criticized. With the attitudes of the last Papacy, the Church won for itself great expressions of fondness from the masses. It became popular. Isn’t that wonderful, you might be thinking! We received plenty of esteem and lots of friendship. I have no idea what to do with the friendship of the whole wide world. I could give him a few ideas. First, he sets up an uncharitable strawman of his predecessor and then openly dismisses friendship, which is such an important part of love. What I want is absolute love and total devotion to God. Could that mean a Church only for the few? That’s a hypothesis, and a hypothesis isn’t the same as reality. But even this hypothesis isn’t so scandalous. I say: better to have a few that are reliable than to have a great many that are distractable and indifferent. The public squares have been jam-packed, but the hearts have been emptied of God. You can’t measure love with numbers, you can only measure it in terms of intensity, in terms of blind loyalty to the imperative. Again, with the rigorism. He sets up a false choice. Yes, you can't measure love with numbers, but neither can you measure love in terms of blind loyalty. No Christian should worship blindly; you want to have your eyes open, to make sure you're worshipping the right thing. Just because something calls itself God doesn't mean that it's God. He says the hearts have been emptied of God. What a horrible, horrible thing to say. He doesn't know that, he just assumes it, because that is what accords to how he sees the world. I haven't seen the show, only a whole bunch of clips. When I was a kid, HBO was for "rich kids" and I resist picking it up because that stigma lurks in my mind to this day. All I can say is that every scene I have seen with him has shown him to be: bitter, manipulative, confused, judgmental, and downright mean. I get the sense that he resists the advances of the woman sent to seduce him not because he has a special piety that allows him not to fall into lust, but rather because he just doesn't care about sex, or for some other reason. Sure, sure, I could be wrong. But a person who prays for the death of another person and has that prayer answered, that raises some serious questions.
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Jan 7, 2017 06:17
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Escobarbarian posted:For the institution itself, not the people who make it up at this current moment, I suppose. The church without the people is just a bunch of rocks and mortar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdmcpLXY9Kc His emphasis on the -suffering- gives the viewer the sense that he wants others to suffer like he has suffered. On this sadism he slathers a veneer of piety by assuming that it will lead them to God. It's like the khylysty, only instead of people sinning on their own in order to repent, he seems to want to bring it to them directly. For the record, I'm not saying the show is a bad show, or that people shouldn't enjoy it. I just think it's important to question whether the central character is an anti-hero or villain. Breaking Bad is a good example of a great show about a man who became bad. I just don't understand why people seem to hold Jude Law's character up as a "breath of fresh air" simply because it's something different. To put on my Chesterton cap, I'd say that he's surely a breath of fresh air, but the air smells of charcoal and brimstone. CountFosco fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Jan 7, 2017 |
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Jan 7, 2017 06:20
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Counter-pointCountFosco posted:I haven't seen the show, only a whole bunch of clips.
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Jan 7, 2017 07:29
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Just finished the pilot, this series looks great so far.
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Jan 16, 2017 05:06
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