On Fake News, Clickbait & Hoaxes: Verified by Snopes to be True

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > On Fake News, Clickbait & Hoaxes: Verified by Snopes to be True

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Phyzzle: Jan 26, 2008

Extensive Vamping posted:

What I'm getting from all of this is we need a "War of the Worlds" type of event every so often.

Was he "War of the Worlds" event was a very effective piece of fake news . . . or do we just think so because of some vaguely sourced news stories that later blew up virally ?

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/history/2013/10/orson_welles_war_of_the_worlds_panic_myth_the_infamous_radio_broadcast_did.html

# ? Dec 4, 2016 07:16

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# ? Apr 26, 2024 15:26

A Deacon: Nov 17, 2016; by exmarx

Bip Roberts posted:

Is the clear alignment of the trump campaign with putin somehow no longer a real thing? Also how is it remotely "McCarthyist"?

The point was that numerous media & news outlets were blaming Russia and Putin for Hillary's loss rather than the abundance of horrible positions she had on domestic and foreign policy that repelled many voters.

# ? Dec 4, 2016 07:17

DACK FAYDEN: Feb 25, 2013; Bear Witness

Silver2195 posted:

Pretty sure the Times isn't fake news either, just conservative.

I just figured one good shitpost deserved another, and I enjoy when people confuse the two.

(Although if you told me one of the two ran a fake story I'd guess the Times, in a vacuum, I don't know of any instances where they have!)

# ? Dec 4, 2016 07:22

erosion: Dec 21, 2002; It's true and I'm tired of pretending it isn't

Phyzzle posted:

Was he "War of the Worlds" event was a very effective piece of fake news . . . or do we just think so because of some vaguely sourced news stories that later blew up virally ?

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/history/2013/10/orson_welles_war_of_the_worlds_panic_myth_the_infamous_radio_broadcast_did.html

Awesome, my example of an event to fake out the fake news turned out to be fake. Getting meta in here.

# ? Dec 4, 2016 07:23

botany: Apr 27, 2013; by Lowtax

A Deacon posted:

The point was that numerous media & news outlets were blaming Russia and Putin for Hillary's loss rather than the abundance of horrible positions she had on domestic and foreign policy that repelled many voters.

The real McCarthyite horseshit was the immediate turn around where anyone critical of Clinton was accused of being a Putin stooge. See the godawful PropOrNot list that accused Naked Capitalism of being in the Kremlin's pockets.

# ? Dec 4, 2016 12:35

A Deacon: Nov 17, 2016; by exmarx

botany posted:

The real McCarthyite horseshit was the immediate turn around where anyone critical of Clinton was accused of being a Putin stooge. See the godawful PropOrNot list that accused Naked Capitalism of being in the Kremlin's pockets.

http://www.propornot.com/p/home.html

They are really trying to say that Alex loving Jones is Russia's top propaganda site in the U.S followed closely by the Ron Paul Institute.

:lol:

# ? Dec 4, 2016 12:52

Woozy: Jan 3, 2006

This whole thing is such an obvious smokescreen. John Kirby lost his mind over an RT reporter asking State to come clean on Syria and suddenly "fake news" is an epidemic that imperils the very core of American democracy. Nevermind that establishment media has never been more pathetic and servile than since the U.S. kicked off its program of forever-war in the Middle East. The PropOrNot thing is so creepy and Orwellian that I can't imagine it not working on Americans, since that's pretty much what we go for these days.

# ? Dec 4, 2016 13:33

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

A Deacon posted:

For instance: CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, The New York Times, The Guardian, The Washington Post, and even supposedly prestigious "economists" like Paul Krugman were�and still are�insisting that Donald Trump was working for the Kremlin in one way or another. I have even seen people like Bill Maher and John Oliver give credence to this neo-McCarthyist horseshit.

You are overstretching the truth here. These guys think Donald Trump's campaign was helped by the Kremlin in some way. With the Wikileaks hack with Cyrillic metadata that's pretty clearly true. Working for and helped by are not the same thing.

Enjoy being part of the problem!

# ? Dec 4, 2016 16:48

Woozy: Jan 3, 2006

How Fake News Created the Myth of Fidel Castro as Latin Robin Hood
http://www.newsweek.com/2016/12/09/fake-news-myth-fidel-castro-robin-hood-525527.html

loving fake news again! Where will it end?

# ? Dec 4, 2016 18:11

HackensackBackpack: Aug 20, 2007; Who needs a house out in Hackensack? Is that all you get for your money?

A Deacon posted:

The point was that numerous media & news outlets were blaming Russia and Putin for Hillary's loss rather than the abundance of horrible positions she had on domestic and foreign policy that repelled many voters.

Can you link some of these articles, please?

# ? Dec 5, 2016 02:16

Zipperelli.: Apr 3, 2011; Nap Ghost

It got somewhat glossed over last page, but regarding supermarket tabloids like the Enquirer and such, what is saving their asses from getting sued out of this world for libel?

# ? Dec 5, 2016 03:20

stringball: Mar 17, 2009

Zipperelli. posted:

It got somewhat glossed over last page, but regarding supermarket tabloids like the Enquirer and such, what is saving their asses from getting sued out of this world for libel?

I've looked this up and I don't have a grasp on what is libel for popular/public figures, they'll make the case as drawn out and expensive as possible and any royalties they pay will be disputed

stringball fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Dec 5, 2016

# ? Dec 5, 2016 03:24

Zipperelli.: Apr 3, 2011; Nap Ghost

stringball posted:

I've looked this up and I don't have a grasp on what is libel for popular/public figures, they'll make the case as drawn out and expensive as possible and any royalties they pay will be disputed

So they're free to write whatever they want, knowing full well that if it came to litigation, they'd just drag their feet, cost the plaintiff more money than it's worth, then dispute everything until the end of time?

What a garbage state of affairs.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 03:27

ewe2: Jul 1, 2009

Zipperelli. posted:

It got somewhat glossed over last page, but regarding supermarket tabloids like the Enquirer and such, what is saving their asses from getting sued out of this world for libel?

As I said, the rest of the article is on page 5 and glosses the headline by sticking to facts and "allegedly". So if they are sued, they can say that the story had "the appearance" of facts. Doesn't always work but the idea is to make a trial look harder and more expensive.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 03:30

stringball: Mar 17, 2009

Zipperelli. posted:

So they're free to write whatever they want, knowing full well that if it came to litigation, they'd just drag their feet, cost the plaintiff more money than it's worth, then dispute everything until the end of time?

What a garbage state of affairs.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/tabloid2.htm

Seems like it!

# ? Dec 5, 2016 03:30

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Zipperelli. posted:

It got somewhat glossed over last page, but regarding supermarket tabloids like the Enquirer and such, what is saving their asses from getting sued out of this world for libel?

In the US to prove libel you must prove that statements were false and caused actual, measurable, financial damages. Simply proving that someone was mean to you in a magazine is not enough for libel. You have to prove that it was false, they knew it was false, and that it cost you money.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 04:01

Rocko Bonaparte: Mar 12, 2002; Every day is Friday!

Wait--did nobody actually bring this up today?

N.C. man told police he went to D.C. pizzeria with assault rifle to �self-investigate� election-related conspiracy theory
(PS I'm citing the Washington Post article because they've been awesome this election cycle and we subscribed. You should too!)

quote:

A North Carolina man was arrested Sunday after he walked into a popular pizza restaurant in Northwest Washington carrying an assault rifle and fired one or more shots, D.C. police said. The man told police he had come to the restaurant to �self-investigate� a false election-related conspiracy theory involving Hillary Clinton that spread online during her presidential campaign.

The incident caused panic, with several businesses going into lockdown as police swarmed the neighborhood after receiving the call shortly before 3 p.m.

Police said 28-year-old Edgar Maddison Welch, of Salisbury, N.C., walked in the front door of Comet Ping Pong and pointed a firearm in the direction of a restaurant employee. The employee was able to flee and notify police. Police said Welch proceeded to discharge the rifle inside the restaurant; they believe all other occupants had fled when Welch began shooting.

Welch has been charged with assault with a dangerous weapon. Police said there were no reported injuries.

Interim D.C. Police Chief Peter Newsham said police arrived on the scene minutes after the first call, set up a perimeter and safely arrested Welch about 45 minutes after he entered the restaurant.

Police recovered two firearms inside the restaurant; an additional weapon was recovered in Welch�s car.

Vivek Jain, of Potomac, Md., was eating lunch inside Banana Leaf, a nearby Indian restaurant, when Comet patrons came rushing inside. He said Banana Leaf was locked down for about 90 minutes.

�A bunch of people ran in from Comet and said a man walked in with a gun,� Jain said.

About 45 minutes later, he said, he saw a man walking backward out into the street with his hands in the air.

�He laid down on Connecticut Avenue and he was immediately picked up by the police and taken away,� he said.

The popular family restaurant, near Connecticut and Nebraska avenues NW in the Chevy Chase neighborhood, was swept up in the onslaught of fake news and conspiracy theories that were prevalent during the presidential campaign. The restaurant, its owner, staff and nearby businesses have been attacked on social media and received death threats.

While police initially said it did not appear the incident was related to the threats, businesses and residents immediately surmised it might be connected to �pizzagate.�

James Alefantis, the owner of Comet Ping Pong, did not immediately respond to messages seeking comment Sunday.

The restaurant�s owner and employees were threatened on social media in the days before the election after fake news stories circulated claiming that then-Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton and her campaign chief were running a child sex ring from the restaurant�s backrooms. Even Michael Flynn, a retired general whom President-elect Trump has tapped to advise him on national security, shared stories about another anti-Clinton conspiracy theory involving pedophilia. None of them were true. But the fake stories and threats persisted, some even aimed at children of Comet Ping Pong employees and patrons. The restaurant�s owner was forced to contact the FBI, local police, Facebook and other social-media platforms in an effort to remove the articles.

Last month, citing its policy against posting the personal information of others, Reddit banned the �pizzagate� topic.

But it didn�t stop the harassment, and nearby businesses have received threats as well, according to police. On Sunday, Washington Post reporters involved in this article were the target of online threats shortly after it posted.

Matt Carr, the owner of the Little Red Fox market and coffee shop, said his business started getting threats last weekend. They got 30 to 40 calls before they stopped answering calls from blocked numbers, he said. �One person said he wanted to line us up in front of a firing squad,� said Carr, who spent more than an hour in lockdown with his employees Sunday.

The threats were all tied to the Comet Ping Pong accusations online, he said. �There�s some old painted-over symbol on the marquee that they claim is an international symbol of pedophilia and that there are underground tunnels. . . . There�s some video on YouTube that has almost 100,000 views and talks about me, the owner of the Little Red Fox, by name.

�This was our worst fear,� he said, �that someone would read all this and come to the block with a gun. And today it happened.�

Politics and Prose, the bookstore that has been a Washington institution and neighborhood fixture for more than 30 years, was in the middle of a book event when attendees and staff saw police converging on the block, said Bradley Graham, a store co-owner.

They, too, had received threats recently, Graham said, and were planning to meet with police Monday �because we had feared that what, up to now, had been simply despicable menacing verbal attacks online or on the phone might escalate.�

Graham said he was told that the gunman walked into the kitchen at Comet Ping Pong on Sunday, �presumably looking for the alleged tunnels� where children were hidden and tortured. Graham believes that account of the gunman�s actions came from an employee at the restaurant.

He said the businesses are hoping to get more police protection, �and we would also hope that law enforcement authorities will be prompted to take additional measures to shut down the sites where this hateful material is being spread, and also measures to try to trace the menacing phone calls.

� . . . We�re all rather shaken,� he said.

�Political figures have the means to deal with conspiratorial allegations and threats, but your neighborhood mom and pop shop does not,� Carr said later in an email. �I make coffee and breakfast burritos for a living. This is out of our league.�

D.C. Council member Mary M. Cheh (D-Ward 3) was getting gas down the street from Comet Ping Pong and saw what she described as intense police activity around the restaurant. Cheh said she spoke with Mayor Muriel E. Bowser (D), who had been briefed by police. At the time she spoke to reporters, Cheh didn�t know the gunman�s actions were connected to the false rumors surrounding Comet Ping Pong, but she was concerned.

�It�s very, very worrisome,� Cheh said. �I�m just very worried that [the rumors] may have unleashed people who are unstable to pursue violent action, as has happened before.�

She praised the speed of the police response, which she said may have prevented an attack. �It all looked so efficient and professional. I was very pleased it was locked down so quickly.�

Gareth Wade, 47, and Doug Clarke, 50, were sitting down for pizza and beer at Comet when they spotted a commotion. All of a sudden, said Wade, �the server said someone just walked in with a shotgun.

�A man had just walked into the building, passed us into the back of the building, he seemed to have a shotgun or a rifle-type of [gun] and said we ought to vacate the building,� Wade recalled the server saying.

They rushed out of the restaurant and had planned to head to Politics and Prose, where Clarke�s wife and 5-year-old took shelter, but they got separated. Clarke and Wade were met by a heavy police presence when they attempted to join up.

�Police said you can�t go to the bookstore,� Wade said. They ended up behind the police barricade at Connecticut Avenue and Fessenden Street. Clarke�s wife and son were forced to remain inside the bookstore. Meanwhile, Clarke was trying to reunite his son with a present he had received for his fifth birthday, a stuffed lion that they were forced to leave inside the restaurant.

�He�s kind of shaken up about the whole thing,� Clarke said. �We�ve been talking a lot about it and trying to help him understand. That he was a man with a weapon, weapons are bad � he was not a nice person.�

# ? Dec 5, 2016 05:11

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

Actually WaPo was pretty awful.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 05:14

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Rent-A-Cop posted:

In the US to prove libel you must prove that statements were false and caused actual, measurable, financial damages. Simply proving that someone was mean to you in a magazine is not enough for libel. You have to prove that it was false, they knew it was false, and that it cost you money.

That's not quite right (the "knew it was false" standard is specifically for public figures, and "reckless disregard" of whether it was false counts too).

# ? Dec 5, 2016 05:14

DC Murderverse: Nov 10, 2016; "Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"

Rocko Bonaparte posted:

Wait--did nobody actually bring this up today?

N.C. man told police he went to D.C. pizzeria with assault rifle to ‘self-investigate’ election-related conspiracy theory
(PS I'm citing the Washington Post article because they've been awesome this election cycle and we subscribed. You should too!)

This is disgusting generally and everyone who keeps on insisting that "pizza gate" is a thing should be kicked off the internet, but there's an extra level of surreality that comes because the name of the pizza place is "comet ping pong". such a weird name.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 05:18

Byolante: Mar 23, 2008; by Cyrano4747

DC Murderverse posted:

This is disgusting generally and everyone who keeps on insisting that "pizza gate" is a thing should be kicked off the internet, but there's an extra level of surreality that comes because the name of the pizza place is "comet ping pong". such a weird name.

What makes it so tempting a target is its a pretty weird place tbh. Kid friendly pizza shop by day, wild punk rock venue by night with occasional political gatherings. Anybody with half a brain knows some guy owning a shop nearby that shares his name with another dude who might have done bad things at some point in the past doesn't make a totally unrelated business a kiddy porn dungeon.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 05:21

DACK FAYDEN: Feb 25, 2013; Bear Witness

A Deacon posted:

http://www.propornot.com/p/home.html

They are really trying to say that Alex loving Jones is Russia's top propaganda site in the U.S followed closely by the Ron Paul Institute.

I thought the list was chronological, not sorted by influence.

...because if I had to start a list of Russian stooge media, yes, Alex Jones of frequent-RT-guesting fame would be one of the first names that came to mind.

Did I misread that somewhere? That page makes my eyes gloss over because it's written poorly, laid out poorly, and frankly smells of insanity.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 05:24

Zerg Mans: Oct 19, 2006

Nonsense posted:

Actually WaPo was pretty awful.

Agreed, they spent the entire cycle talking about how Trump was horribly corrupt, instead of how Hillary Clinton was not Bernie Sanders and therefore unacceptable as president.

A Deacon posted:

The point was that numerous media & news outlets were blaming Russia and Putin for Hillary's loss rather than the abundance of horrible positions she had on domestic and foreign policy that repelled many voters.

It can be both, you know. If she'd put more effort on an economic message, she would have won. If Russia hasn't undermined her, she would have won. If the FBI director didn't intentionally politicize his department, she would have won. There's a half dozen reasons she lost, a lot of which are her fault, but some aren't.

Zerg Mans fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Dec 5, 2016

# ? Dec 5, 2016 05:27

Byolante: Mar 23, 2008; by Cyrano4747

DACK FAYDEN posted:

I thought the list was chronological, not sorted by influence.

...because if I had to start a list of Russian stooge media, yes, Alex Jones of frequent-RT-guesting fame would be one of the first names that came to mind.

Did I misread that somewhere? That page makes my eyes gloss over because it's written poorly, laid out poorly, and frankly smells of insanity.

It lists Zero Hedge, Naked Capitalism, Truth Dig and the daily stormer as pro-russian propaganda fonts. The one thing I can say uniformly about those 4 outlets is they aren't in favour of Russia. Its essentially a dumping ground of clickbait idiocy like that guy from California who made fake news to try and discredit the right then realised there was good money in it and turned it into a business consequences be damned, Scaremongering conspiracy theorists and anyone who attacked Clinton who was notionally leftist. They don't comment on why you are on the list and offer to take you off if you bend the knee and run only news they approve of.

quote:

As an example, we are happy to remove from the List any outlet whose operators understand how Putin's Russia is a brutal authoritarian kleptocracy that uses "fake news" as online propaganda, and resolves to help do something about it. For example, any outlet that has used a lot of Russia Today and Sputnik News content, but resolves to stop doing so, is going to be removed from the List.

It absolutely is a bludgeon to push a specific ideology.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 05:45

Call Me Charlie: Dec 3, 2005; by Smythe

We already covered this in the left wing media thread but

here's a great article that shows how flimsy the washington post article is = http://fortune.com/2016/11/25/russian-fake-news/

Fortune posted:

One of the themes that has emerged during the controversy over �fake news� and its role in the election of Donald Trump is the idea that Russian agents of various kinds helped hack the process by fueling this barrage of false news. But is that really true?

In a recent story, the Washington Post says that this is definitely the case, based on information provided by two groups of what the paper calls �independent researchers.� But the case starts to come apart at the seams the more you look at it.

One group is associated with the Foreign Policy Research Institute, a conservative think tank known for its generally hawkish stance on relations between the U.S. and Russia, which says it has been researching Russian propaganda since 2014.

The second group is something called PropOrNot, about which very little is known. Its website doesn�t name anyone who is associated with it, including the researchers who worked on the report. And the Post doesn�t name the group�s executive director, whom it quotes, because it says he is afraid of �being targeted by Russia�s legions of skilled hackers.�

PropOrNot�s Twitter, which tweets and retweets anti-Russian sentiments from a variety of sources, has only existed since August of this year. And an article announcing the launch of the group on its website is dated last month.

According to the description, PropOrNot includes an unidentified number of �concerned American citizens with a wide range of backgrounds and expertise, including professional experience in computer science, statistics, public policy, and national security affairs.�

The group has a web-browser plug-in that is supposed to highlight sources of Russian propaganda online, but a number of observers on Twitter noted that this blacklist of sites includes several legitimate left-wing sites such as CounterPunch and Truth Out.

A number of the �allies� that PropOrNot lists on its website�including the investigative blogger Eliot Higgins, who runs a research entity called BellingCat that has used crowdsourcing to track Russian government activity in Ukraine�said they have never heard of the group.

here's an article from counterpunch (one of the leftist sites that made the list) that shows how absurd propornot is = http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/12/02/counterpunch-as-russian-propagandists-the-washington-posts-shallow-smear/

The Washington Post was the only publication that bit when propornot was trying to shop it around to various groups. So WaPo is garbage tier news.

And this shouldn't have to be stated but I guess this is the world we live in.

counterpunch posted:

For the record, neither Jeffrey or I have never appeared on RT or Sputnik, we�ve both turned down dozens of requests, in part because we are opposed to state-run media. In fact, both of us have been highly critical of Putin and Russia over the years and we don�t plan on curbing our critiques anytime soon. Additionally, we have gladly published a variety of Russian writers, such as Boris Kagarlitsky, many of whom are harsh critics of the regime. Even so, we don�t believe any American journalists who have appeared on these Russian-sponsored outlets should apologize for anything, and it certainly doesn�t mean those who have are Russian propagandists.

Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Dec 5, 2016

# ? Dec 5, 2016 08:48

botany: Apr 27, 2013; by Lowtax

Byolante posted:

It lists Zero Hedge, Naked Capitalism, Truth Dig and the daily stormer as pro-russian propaganda fonts. The one thing I can say uniformly about those 4 outlets is they aren't in favour of Russia. Its essentially a dumping ground of clickbait idiocy like that guy from California who made fake news to try and discredit the right then realised there was good money in it and turned it into a business consequences be damned, Scaremongering conspiracy theorists and anyone who attacked Clinton who was notionally leftist. They don't comment on why you are on the list and offer to take you off if you bend the knee and run only news they approve of.

The Zero Hedge article they use as an example of absurdly pro-Russian propaganda is a blog saying that Russia is hosed and the rest of the world is headed the same direction. I'm not sure they've read half the stuff they cite.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 08:55

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Zipperelli. posted:

So they're free to write whatever they want, knowing full well that if it came to litigation, they'd just drag their feet, cost the plaintiff more money than it's worth, then dispute everything until the end of time?

What a garbage state of affairs.

America's strong protections for the press against libel allow the press to investigate public figures in a way that wasn't possible before those protections were put into place, and isn't possible in countries like Australia. And I don't just mean on the national level, either. Tabloids take advantage of that situation, but that doesn't make those libel protections a bad thing. They're just an unintended consequence of the free press.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 12:46

botany: Apr 27, 2013; by Lowtax

FactsAreUseless posted:

America's strong protections for the press against libel allow the press to investigate public figures in a way that wasn't possible before those protections were put into place

I'd be interested in more info on this, if you're up for it. Or if you have some links to read, that'd be nice as well.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 12:59

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

botany posted:

I'd be interested in more info on this, if you're up for it. Or if you have some links to read, that'd be nice as well.

Wikipedia lays it out pretty well, but the key case is New York Times v. Sullivan, if you want a different source. It established a precedent that public figures can't sue for libel simply because something is false. They have to demonstrate "actual malice." So public figures can't just go through stories to find any minor inaccuracy ("Oh, it was actually five attack dogs, not six") and use it as the basis for a suit.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 13:08

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Times v. Sullivan is also a footnote to the Civil Rights movement.

quote:

On March 29, 1960, The New York Times carried a full-page advertisement titled "Heed Their Rising Voices", paid for by the "Committee to Defend Martin Luther King and the Struggle for Freedom in the South".[5][6] In the advertisement, the Committee solicited funds to defend Martin Luther King, Jr. against an Alabama perjury indictment. The advertisement described actions against civil rights protesters, some of them inaccurately, some of which involved the police force of Montgomery, Alabama. Referring to the Alabama State Police, the advertisement stated: "They have arrested [King] seven times..."[7] However, at that point he had been arrested four times.[7] Although African-American students staged a demonstration on the State Capitol steps, they sang the National Anthem and not My Country, 'Tis of Thee.[7] Although the Montgomery Public Safety commissioner, L. B. Sullivan, was not named in the advertisement, the inaccurate criticism of actions by the police was considered defamatory to Sullivan as well, due to his duty to supervise the police department.[7]

# ? Dec 5, 2016 13:10

Potato Salad: Oct 23, 2014; nobody cares

botany posted:

I'd be interested in more info on this, if you're up for it. Or if you have some links to read, that'd be nice as well.

Can't look into it yourself? Australia's low-simmering issue with <word I'm not allowed to use on the internet anymore> dates back a decade. Do you read any international news outlets?

Edit - And yes, I assert that libel crackdown of the sort <name I'm supposed to respect now> has explicitly called for and Australia has is categorically <word I'm not allowed to use on the internet anymore>.

Edit 2 - Someone earlier talked about themes on information in dystopian ~~non~~fiction. Throwing up a Wall of Litigation to prevent closer inspection of wrongdoing is common.

Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Dec 5, 2016

# ? Dec 5, 2016 13:13

botany: Apr 27, 2013; by Lowtax

FactsAreUseless posted:

Wikipedia lays it out pretty well, but the key case is New York Times v. Sullivan, if you want a different source. It established a precedent that public figures can't sue for libel simply because something is false. They have to demonstrate "actual malice." So public figures can't just go through stories to find any minor inaccuracy ("Oh, it was actually five attack dogs, not six") and use it as the basis for a suit.

Thanks!

Potato Salad posted:

Can't look into it yourself? Australia's low-simmering issue with <word I'm not allowed to use on the internet anymore> dates back a decade. Do you read any international news outlets?

And yes, I assert that libel crackdown of the sort <name I'm supposed to respect now> has explicitly called for and Australia has is categorically <word I'm not allowed to use on the internet anymore>.

I didn't quote the part about Australia since I wasn't asking about Australia.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 13:21

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Rocko Bonaparte posted:

Wait--did nobody actually bring this up today?

N.C. man told police he went to D.C. pizzeria with assault rifle to �self-investigate� election-related conspiracy theory
(PS I'm citing the Washington Post article because they've been awesome this election cycle and we subscribed. You should too!)

Never fear, Trump's inner circle is ready to investigate:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/incoming-national-security-advisers-son-spreads-fake-news-about-dc-pizza-shop-232181

So, see, people will be able to stop doing it themselves.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 14:19

Potato Salad: Oct 23, 2014; nobody cares

botany posted:

I didn't quote the part about Australia since I wasn't asking about Australia.

I made a mistake here. I read this and assumed that, between libel policy abroad that favors the plaintiff and the protections citizens enjoy in the States, you'd have been informed about the one that is a component of your rights -- assuming you live in the US.

My apologies for reading your post with the prejudice that you even knew the extent of protection we enjoy on free speech in the states, nonetheless on how it's actually something of a novel idea that free speech is so strictly protected even in a democratic society. That's my bad, I'll make sure to avoid assuming you know more than what's explicitly in your posts.

If you want some breadcrumbs on the Australia tangent I included by mistake anyway, read up on free speech issues in superficially more progressive nations like Germany, the UK, and Australia. My (unprompted, unwanted) hot take is that progress isn't a sliding bar -- you can be a nation like Germany that's experimenting with progressive economic ideas like basic income yet be somewhat regressive on topics like free speech. In the UK, and you may or may not agree with this if you look into it yourself, what essentially amounts to burden of proof is placed on the reporter as opposed to the plaintiff in libel cases. That stands in contrast with what happens here in the US, where a plaintiff has a steep burden to prove falsehood, intent, and damage to silence libelous speech / collect damages from a defendant.

Edit 1: If there's a warning I want to convey with my post, it's that we can indeed lose some of what we loosely understand yet often don't as a populace have the capacity to enumerate as our rights in short order without vigilance. Plenty of the free world's population lives under government that does not place the same sanctity on speech as we can fail to appreciate in the states. I certainly believe we can become similarly complacent should the US flip the starting prejudice in libel law to favor corporate / moneyed interest.

Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Dec 5, 2016

# ? Dec 5, 2016 15:21

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Potato Salad posted:

I made a mistake here. I read this and assumed that, between libel policy abroad that favors the plaintiff and the protections citizens enjoy in the States, you'd have been informed about the one that is a component of your rights -- assuming you live in the US.

My apologies for reading your post with the prejudice that you even knew the extent of protection we enjoy on free speech in the states, nonetheless on how it's actually something of a novel idea that free speech is so strictly protected even in a democratic society. That's my bad, I'll make sure to avoid assuming you know more than what's explicitly in your posts.

If you want some breadcrumbs on the Australia tangent I included by mistake anyway, read up on free speech issues in superficially more progressive nations like Germany, the UK, and Australia. My (unprompted, unwanted) hot take is that progress isn't a sliding bar -- you can be a nation like Germany that's experimenting with progressive economic ideas like basic income yet be somewhat regressive on topics like free speech. In the UK, and you may or may not agree with this if you look into it yourself, what essentially amounts to burden of proof is placed on the reporter as opposed to the plaintiff in libel cases. That stands in contrast with what happens here in the US, where a plaintiff has a steep burden to prove falsehood, intent, and damage to silence libelous speech / collect damages from a defendant.

It's very much worth being aware of the free speech situation in places like the UK and Australia, because the U.S. shares a lot of things with them, politically, and it's worth being reminded that free speech can disappear at any moment unless you continue to fight for it.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 15:27

Toplowtech: Aug 31, 2004

DC Murderverse posted:

This is disgusting generally and everyone who keeps on insisting that "pizza gate" is a thing should be kicked off the internet, but there's an extra level of surreality that comes because the name of the pizza place is "comet ping pong". such a weird name.

The Pizzagate is your classical "all lefties are pedophiles, he is a picture i wrote on a pizzabox to prove it to you" right-wing gutter tabloid propaganda (and it manage to make me angry by bringing indestructible tabloid UK meme "involve Madeleine McCann". At this point just accuse Hillary of raping batboy while shooting JFK, it would be more creative jesus) but yeah the effort to censor it off the internet in the name of fighting against FAKE NEWS(it's more of an admission classical media are unable to fight lovely conspiracy theories than anything else), is just going to allow it to spread with an aura of "so true, it's getting censored", it doesn't deserve.

Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Dec 5, 2016

# ? Dec 5, 2016 15:34

coathat: May 21, 2007

The truth is actually somewhere in the middle. They are all child molesters.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 15:46

Pikavangelist: Nov 9, 2016; There is no God but Arceus
And Pikachu is His prophet

coathat posted:

The truth is actually somewhere in the middle. They are all child molesters.

It was the only way to get Dennis Hastert to support your bill, though.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 15:48

sweart gliwere: Jul 5, 2005; _{better to die an evil wizard,

than to live as a grand one.}; Pillbug

Toplowtech posted:

but yeah the effort to censor it off the internet in the name of fighting against FAKE NEWS(it's more of an admission classical media are unable to fight lovely conspiracy theories than anything else), is just going to allow it to spread with an aura of "so true, it's getting censored", it doesn't deserve.

Not that reasserting reality is helped when you've got an incoming Trump admin choice's son spreading #pizzagate poo poo. He really struck gold with the Flynn pick.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 15:50

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# ? Apr 26, 2024 15:26

botany: Apr 27, 2013; by Lowtax

Potato Salad posted:

I made a mistake here. I read this and assumed that, between libel policy abroad that favors the plaintiff and the protections citizens enjoy in the States, you'd have been informed about the one that is a component of your rights -- assuming you live in the US.

My apologies for reading your post with the prejudice that you even knew the extent of protection we enjoy on free speech in the states, nonetheless on how it's actually something of a novel idea that free speech is so strictly protected even in a democratic society. That's my bad, I'll make sure to avoid assuming you know more than what's explicitly in your posts.

If you want some breadcrumbs on the Australia tangent I included by mistake anyway, read up on free speech issues in superficially more progressive nations like Germany, the UK, and Australia. My (unprompted, unwanted) hot take is that progress isn't a sliding bar -- you can be a nation like Germany that's experimenting with progressive economic ideas like basic income yet be somewhat regressive on topics like free speech. In the UK, and you may or may not agree with this if you look into it yourself, what essentially amounts to burden of proof is placed on the reporter as opposed to the plaintiff in libel cases. That stands in contrast with what happens here in the US, where a plaintiff has a steep burden to prove falsehood, intent, and damage to silence libelous speech / collect damages from a defendant.

Edit 1: If there's a warning I want to convey with my post, it's that we can indeed lose some of what we loosely understand yet often don't as a populace have the capacity to enumerate as our rights in short order without vigilance. Plenty of the free world's population lives under government that does not place the same sanctity on speech as we can fail to appreciate in the states. I certainly believe we can become similarly complacent should the US flip the starting prejudice in libel law to favor corporate / moneyed interest.

I don't live in the US.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 15:54

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > On Fake News, Clickbait & Hoaxes: Verified by Snopes to be True

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