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Brainiac Five posted:What's "my type", motherfucker? e: oh, it's our favorite idpol-only bourgeoisie effectronica, should have figured from the rapsheet 
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Dec 3, 2016 20:27
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Deified Data posted:I agree that this is an observable phenomenon but for the sake of discussion could you share something you regard to be a well-reasoned criticism of inclusiveness or equal rights?
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Dec 3, 2016 20:28
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Usually dumbass quasi whiteboy cishet leftists get mad about identity politics because they "distract from the class struggle." But do they ever address the racism, LGBTphobia, and sexism? No, because that has nothing to do with their identity.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:29
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Death Bot posted:Basically white people have no experience dealing with race issues, so any amount of that stress just causes meltdowns. When a minority starts seeing articles that say "turns out everyone is racist and everythings stacked against you" they say "yeah duh" but a white person seeing the same poo poo has been tricked by American culture into thinking that that isn't true. All talk of 'privilege' is just a total political non-seller. Academically, sure, but if you are not going to really motivate people you accuse of being "privileged". Very few people are going to look in the mirror at the horror show of their life and say, "yeah I am privileged. I'm voting for the party that appears to be accusing me of it!" Edit: I dont really mean like, you you, more like the royal you.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:30
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:is this the routine where you pigeonhole yourself into a 34-depth identity thing and berate everyone who gets it wrong while you speak from a position of economic safety, because there's only one correct answer to that You don't know what bourgeois is.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:32
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Torpor posted:All talk of 'privilege' is just a total political non-seller. Academically, sure, but if you are not going to really motivate people you accuse of being "privileged". Very few people are going to look in the mirror at the horror show of their life and say, "yeah I am privileged. I'm voting for the party that appears to be accusing me of it!" But grandstanding gives me the good feels! I cannot exist in the same reality as people who don't not check their privilege when leaving the house in the morning! What do you mean those people also vote?
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Dec 3, 2016 20:38
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Torpor posted:All talk of 'privilege' is just a total political non-seller. Academically, sure, but if you are not going to really motivate people you accuse of being "privileged". Very few people are going to look in the mirror at the horror show of their life and say, "yeah I am privileged. I'm voting for the party that appears to be accusing me of it!" I forgot that check your privilege was phrase uttered outside of tumblr. it's not amigo
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Dec 3, 2016 20:39
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Torpor posted:Unless you are a moron and invoke it haphazardly which is what happened. No democrats were actually interested in dismantling racism. Lots of white people weren't, and trump capitalized on this.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:39
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Also attempting to 'fight racism' by referring to huge populations of people exclusively by their skin color and acting as though they are all the same is just not a good plan.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:40
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stone cold posted:Usually dumbass quasi whiteboy cishet leftists get mad about identity politics because they "distract from the class struggle." Brainiac Five posted:A pretty good example of why "we need both" is a facile lie is that the people saying it are pushing respectability politics for the minorities. Thus, since LGBT people can't put pressure on society in general because that's "alienating" and can't put pressure on corporations because that's "neoliberalism", what would actually happen in Freddie the Boor's ideal leftism is that LGBT liberation and LGBT people as a class would slowly get strangled into oblivion.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:40
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Torpor posted:Also attempting to 'fight racism' by referring to huge populations of people exclusively by their skin color and acting as though they are all the same is just not a good plan. I agree, Trump was right, some Mexicans are good people!  e: Cugel the Clever posted:Guys, take a breath. Literally no one in this thread is saying that gender equality, racial equality, or LGBT issues aren't essential to the future we want to build. I can sympathize with your fear and frustration. There remain huge segments of American society that would deny you your right to exist, but the majority of people on these forums and in the broader left have your back. Can we not slap labels on other posters to invalidate their concerns? I am very afraid for my nonwhite noncishet nonChristian friends, yes, since the prevailing attitude seems to be, "economic anxiety made us lose, better appeal better to whites again." I am gonna call out when people are being poor allies, because yeah human rights are at loving stake. stone cold fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Dec 3, 2016 |
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Dec 3, 2016 20:41
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I do think we should use our pet peeves about things we encounter online and generalize them to a major social issue that is killing our ability to get everyone 100% beyond Cugel the Clever posted:Guys, take a breath. Literally no one in this thread is saying that gender equality, racial equality, or LGBT issues aren't essential to the future we want to build. I can sympathize with your fear and frustration. There remain huge segments of American society that would deny you your right to exist, but the majority of people on these forums and in the broader left have your back. Can we not slap labels on other posters to invalidate their concerns? Dude, I don't care about what you say, I care about what you believe and how you'll act. If you believe that respectability politics is the way forward but also deny that people should interact with the broader society, you quite simply wish to destroy any political movement that isn't the one you believe will win over the residents of Gaylord, MI, pop. 3,645. Because you're closing off both radical politics and the ways respectability politics has any power at all. Brainiac Five fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Dec 3, 2016 |
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Dec 3, 2016 20:42
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Cugel the Clever posted:Guys, take a breath. Literally no one in this thread is saying that gender equality, racial equality, or LGBT issues aren't essential to the future we want to build. I can sympathize with your fear and frustration. There remain huge segments of American society that would deny you your right to exist, but the majority of people on these forums and in the broader left have your back. Can we not slap labels on other posters to invalidate their concerns?
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Dec 3, 2016 20:42
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:keep in mind these are the same people who would throw poor lgbt/minorities under the bus simply because they're sex workers Please keep strawmanning me. 
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Dec 3, 2016 20:44
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Its absolutely poisonous to democracy. Once politics starts revolving around identity, the decline to tribal politics is inevitable and any concept of discourse goes out the window.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:44
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Torpor posted:Also attempting to 'fight racism' by referring to huge populations of people exclusively by their skin color and acting as though they are all the same is just not a good plan. This is not what happened, despite what Breitbart would have you believe.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:46
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stone cold posted:I am very afraid for my nonwhite noncishet nonChristian friends, yes, since the prevailing attitude seems to be, "economic anxiety made us lose, better appeal better to whites again." Appealing to working class whites through a stronger stance on economic issues doesn't detract from fighting for the rights of minorities, though.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:47
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:keep in mind these are the same people who would throw poor lgbt/minorities under the bus simply because they're sex workers If you post this a third time, it will come true, because that's how magic works.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:48
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UV_Catastrophe posted:Appealing to working class whites through a stronger stance on economic issues doesn't detract from fighting for the rights of minorities, though. Really? Because the lady who wanted to uplift them lost to the man who thinks wages are too high and we just need to kick out all the browns.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:49
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UV_Catastrophe posted:Appealing to working class whites through a stronger stance on economic issues doesn't detract from fighting for the rights of minorities, though. It doesn't necessarily detract, but it certainly can. If you're a low-wage worker, kicking out all the immigrants is a strong economic stance.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:50
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JeffersonClay posted:This is not what happened, despite what Breitbart would have you believe. A huge part of discussion surrounded the election was "the black vote" and "the hispanic vote". Edit: Oh, and all the talk about how changing demographics totally impacting the trajectory of the nation.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:51
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Brainiac Five posted:A pretty good example of why "we need both" is a facile lie is that the people saying it are pushing respectability politics for the minorities. Thus, since LGBT people can't put pressure on society in general because that's "alienating" and can't put pressure on corporations because that's "neoliberalism", what would actually happen in Freddie the Boor's ideal leftism is that LGBT liberation and LGBT people as a class would slowly get strangled into oblivion. This isn't at all what people have been talking about, like in the slightest What's being discussed is how an entire wing of leftism can be accused of racism or apathy towards minorities because they consider fiscal policies important. What you're describing is tonal arguments. This is also ignoring that there has been a strong streak of socialism in the history of LGBQT culture. It's not a case of "don't make corporations change things, don't scare white people", it's "don't oppress one side of your own group because you're terrified they might oppress you". White people are not enemies of leftism, let alone change.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:54
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Torpor posted:A huge part of discussion surrounded the election was "the black vote" and "the hispanic vote". There's a difference between recognizing that racial minorities have a substantial common interest in dismantling institutional racism and believing that all black people are exactly the same.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:54
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stone cold posted:Really? Because the lady who wanted to uplift them lost to the man who thinks wages are too high and we just need to kick out all the browns.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:55
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JeffersonClay posted:It doesn't necessarily detract, but it certainly can. If you're a low-wage worker, kicking out all the immigrants is a strong economic stance. Why do you consider this to be an economically motivated stance rather than an identity-based one?
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Dec 3, 2016 20:55
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Paradoxish posted:Why do you consider this to be an economically motivated stance rather than an identity-based one? It's both.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:56
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stone cold posted:Usually dumbass quasi whiteboy cishet leftists get mad about identity politics because they "distract from the class struggle." They actually do. Really, Really often. Because they're accused of exactly this. Really, Really often. Source: I'm a gay socialist
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Dec 3, 2016 20:55
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JeffersonClay posted:It's both. Do you believe that there is nothing leftism can do to make supporting immigrants good from a fiscally left point of view?
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Dec 3, 2016 20:57
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Neurolimal posted:This isn't at all what people have been talking about, like in the slightest Interesting that you put the "Q" before the "T", Neurolimited. But here's the thing. There's no loving oppression of white gays going on. None. The most that might happen is them getting their feelings hurt by a 17-year-old kid on Twitter. If that's oppression, what's gaybashing? Super oppression 64? A Buttery Pastry posted:The Democratic establishment claimed America was already great. What else were these people to take from that than "Yeah, not going to lift a finger for you." What are they going to take from "America is poo poo and always was poo poo?"
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Dec 3, 2016 20:57
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stone cold posted:I forgot that check your privilege was phrase uttered outside of tumblr. Should we all grow some thicker skin? Sure. But we should also not downplay the toxicity of such rhetoric when we're trying to advance our cause. Brainiac Five posted:Dude, I don't care about what you say, I care about what you believe and how you'll act. If you believe that respectability politics is the way forward but also deny that people should interact with the broader society, you quite simply wish to destroy any political movement that isn't the one you believe will win over the residents of Gaylord, MI, pop. 3,645. Because you're closing off both radical politics and the ways respectability politics has any power at all. Edit: Brainiac Five posted:Interesting that you put the "Q" before the "T", Neurolimited. Cugel the Clever fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Dec 3, 2016 |
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Dec 3, 2016 21:02
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UV_Catastrophe posted:Appealing to working class whites through a stronger stance on economic issues doesn't detract from fighting for the rights of minorities, though. In your wording, you explicitly say that economic focus is for "working class whites". Not underserved rural populations, but whites. There is a rich history of economic advances for white people happening at the expense of people of color in this country. In the election postmortems, there is a lot of talk of having to pacify the angry white voters in the name of pragmatism. I will reiterate now that the rampant exploitation of the capitalist class is unconscionable. I add that we know that voter disenfranchisement has been targeted towards minorities specifically. We look at the votes that were cast to see if there are discrepancies, which is fascinating in its own right, but there are no sexy fundraisers about the votes that couldn't be cast at all. I do not see nearly as much talk about fighting for our right to vote. That one-two punch of being disenfranchised and then deemphasized because of the lesser vote impact leaves me with a feeling of dread and less faith in many of my supposed allies than I would have liked to believe.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:03
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Neurolimal posted:They actually do. Really, Really often. Because they're accused of exactly this. Really, Really often. If we're bringing anecdotes to the table, then being told by people like you that dismantling patriarchal values and racism will occur after we smash the capitalists, and having any and all concerns dismissed about POC and noncis nonmen voices being drowned out as identity politics nicely negates out your +1 gay socialist.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:03
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Cugel the Clever posted:Have you truly never heard someone aggressively brandy the phrase against someone they disagreed with? This gets back to my earlier point, there is a vocal handful of individuals who do wield this kind of rhetoric to shout down others—that you haven't encountered it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Taking them as representatives of all those who struggle for social justice is absolutely the wrong rational response to it, but being attacked for who you are puts you on the defensive. That's just how the human psyche works, right or wrong. If you don't understand what Freddie de Boer is talking about in the article you posted, do you really think you should have posted it? Respectability politics is the argument that liberatory politics like antiracism, feminism, gay liberation, should emphasize presenting the members of the communities involved in a way that looks good to the majority to break the stereotypes the majority has about the minority group. It also tends to argue for gaining power on an individual level through infiltrating existing power structures and attempting to adjust them from within. Since we're talking about not alienating people, we are more or less abandoning radical politics which emphasize the need of the majority to change. But we're also insisting that infiltrating existing power structures is wrong too. So what is being said is that liberatory politics in any direction are unacceptable. Which means that they will die out.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:07
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apokaladle posted:In your wording, you explicitly say that economic focus is for "working class whites". Not underserved rural populations, but whites. There is a rich history of economic advances for white people happening at the expense of people of color in this country. This is really not a good way to frame the discussion.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:08
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Brainiac Five posted:Since we're talking about not alienating people, we are more or less abandoning radical politics which emphasize the need of the majority to change. But we're also insisting that infiltrating existing power structures is wrong too. So what is being said is that liberatory politics in any direction are unacceptable. Which means that they will die out.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:11
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Brainiac Five posted:Interesting that you put the "Q" before the "T", Neurolimited. Pretend I'm posting the ever-expanding rolleyes gif here.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:13
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JeffersonClay posted:It's both. So why do you think it's possible to address one side of this issue without also addressing the other? The problem I have with these discussions is that there are very few issues of systemic racism that don't have a built-in component of economic oppression. You can't dismantle racism without directly addressing the problems faced by impoverished minority communities, and reparations and other forms of direct, targeted aid aren't popular with liberals either. This is why identity politics gets attacked from the left constantly - it's an easy way for wealthy liberals to appear progressive while still actively aligning themselves with their own class interests. There are exceptions, of course. Cops literally gunning down black people in the streets isn't an economic issue, but lumping obvious and immediately pressing issues of injustice like that in with "identity politics" is doing them a massive disservice. Nobody in the Democratic Party is addressing this problem in strong enough terms anyway, though.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:14
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I have no loving clue what you clods are talking about in this thread. Everyone's talking past each other with smug satisfaction in their righteous cause without listening to a goddamn thing anyone says. Apparently there are 49 different definitions of identity politics and no one knows what the gently caress the problem is.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:14
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SickZip posted:Its absolutely poisonous to democracy. Once politics starts revolving around identity, the decline to tribal politics is inevitable and any concept of discourse goes out the window. This is very, very true. It's satisfying to consider conservatives regressive assholes who need to have a boot stomp on their face forever, but unless you're willing to execute them all you have to deal with their existence and at least sometimes come up with compromise solutions even if those solutions are not ideologically pure.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:15
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Cugel the Clever posted:You're projecting your fears into other peoples arguments. I don't know what I could possibly say that would dissuade you that we're not all secretly plotting against you. No, I'm reading the thread and you, apparently, are not.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:15
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