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stone cold posted:If we're bringing anecdotes to the table, then being told by people like you that dismantling patriarchal values and racism will occur after we smash the capitalists, and having any and all concerns dismissed about POC and noncis nonmen voices being drowned out as identity politics nicely negates out your +1 gay socialist. Nobody has said that either needs to supercede the other. That's the entire point here; social leftists are trying to exclude fiscal leftists from the fight by reading tea leaves and divinating word usage to uncover a hidden plot to abandon social leftists because that happened before 50+ years ago. It's a bizarre ritual that happens only because the social leftists are already trying to abandon fiscal leftists, so clearly fiscal leftists must be trying to do the same.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:17
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Rexicon1 posted:I have no loving clue what you clods are talking about in this thread. Everyone's talking past each other with smug satisfaction in their righteous cause without listening to a goddamn thing anyone says. Apparently there are 49 different definitions of identity politics and no one knows what the gently caress the problem is. yeah we pretty much answered the question on the first page and the rest of this thread is falling down the same rabbit hole
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Dec 3, 2016 21:16
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apokaladle posted:In your wording, you explicitly say that economic focus is for "working class whites". Not underserved rural populations, but whites. There is a rich history of economic advances for white people happening at the expense of people of color in this country. This is a good point, and I also agree that voter disenfranchisement is dreadful. Democrats will never move forward unless they have the buy-in for each group inside their voting coalition, though. If minority groups do not feel as if a candidate's platform addresses their concerns, that candidate will simply not succeed. Everyone has veto power here, and there's no particular need to feel threatened.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:18
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Brainiac Five posted:Software engineers and lawyers being in a different social class from retail workers is pure liberalism. Do you mean classical liberalism which emphasizes "free market" capitalism? Cause that is practically nonextant. I do agree, however, the Left should have never got involved with identity politics.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:19
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Neurolimal posted:Nobody has said that either needs to supercede the other. That's the entire point here; social leftists are trying to exclude fiscal leftists from the fight by reading tea leaves and divinating word usage to uncover a hidden plot to abandon social leftists because that happened before 50+ years ago. I can hold social leftist and fiscal leftist positions without having to deal with leftboiis telling me to shut my whore mouth. Small wonder I don't want to engage so-called "fiscal leftists." Also, lol at whatever your abandonment complex is.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:19
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Neurolimal posted:Nobody has said that either needs to supercede the other. That's the entire point here; social leftists are trying to exclude fiscal leftists from the fight by reading tea leaves and divinating word usage to uncover a hidden plot to abandon social leftists because that happened before 50+ years ago. No, it's because "fiscal leftists" argue in favor of a kind of third-way politics instead of actual leftism. So your claims of solidarity are obviously bullshit. Confounding Factor posted:Do you mean classical liberalism which emphasizes "free market" capitalism? Cause that is practically nonextant. No, I mean that the people shrieking about the Third Way and triangulation are triangulators themselves.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:19
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Business Gorillas posted:yeah we pretty much answered the question on the first page and the rest of this thread is falling down the same rabbit hole
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Dec 3, 2016 21:21
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Neurolimal posted:Do you believe that there is nothing leftism can do to make supporting immigrants good from a fiscally left point of view? It's a tricky road to navigate because racism is a tool to get poor white people to vote against their own economic interests. We can't have more welfare, because those lazy browns will get it. Paradoxish posted:So why do you think it's possible to address one side of this issue without also addressing the other? I agree that democrats need to be addressing both problems, and in stronger terms. I'm suggesting that there might be situations where "do both, real big" isn't possible electorally.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:22
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JeffersonClay posted:It's a tricky road to navigate because racism is a tool to get poor white people to vote against their own economic interests. We can't have more welfare, because those lazy browns will get it.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:24
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The "discourse" about wealth inequality tends to be somewhere to the right of Thomas Piketty, so it's fairly loving funny to see people pretend to be some sort of radical hero fighting against the oppressive evil of Ellen Degeneres.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:25
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stone cold posted:Usually dumbass quasi whiteboy cishet leftists get mad about identity politics because they "distract from the class struggle." These are distractions from the underlying problems: class. Elevating issues of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc above class does nothing but serve the interests of capital, as we have seen. Thus why liberals who prioritize those issues are reactionary, since capital wants to divide or unite us on its whim.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:25
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stone cold posted:I can hold social leftist and fiscal leftist positions without having to deal with leftboiis telling me to shut my whore mouth. Small wonder I don't want to engage so-called "fiscal leftists." Also, lol at whatever your abandonment complex is. Did you quote the wrong person? It is like you just responded to something he didn't say and are complaining about people tell you to shut up and nobody really did that. If you don't want to engage stop posting?
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Dec 3, 2016 21:26
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Capitalism dates back to Catalhoyuk?
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Dec 3, 2016 21:27
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It's easier to lay the blame at the feet of "identity liberalism" than it is to blame economic liberalism, because one is something that matters to people without power wishing to feel like valid human beings in society, while the other matters to people with huge amounts of power who don't want to be at risk of having to share it.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:27
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Brainiac Five posted:Interesting that you put the "Q" before the "T", Neurolimited. The American left can champion both economic and social justice if it can learn to work together and rise above internecine squabbles. This needn't be a zero-sum game.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:26
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imagine being so politically illiterate that your definition of "elites" includes b-list celebs who require the proletariat to have money to function and advocate for socialism by necessity, instead of the fair-weather wall street billionaires who engage in wage thievery but keep putting up smokescreens like this to make people think they don't exist yet keep suckering the DNC into adopting class-exclusionary idpol
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Dec 3, 2016 21:27
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Torpor posted:Did you quote the wrong person? It is like you just responded to something he didn't say and are complaining about people tell you to shut up and nobody really did that. If you don't want to engage stop posting? I am saying that by so called "fiscal leftists" in my life I have been told to shut my whore mouth, and that I can hold fiscally left values without being one of those toxic idiots. I'm sorry for being unclear, you pedantic wantwit.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:29
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:outside of the incest belt white people seem to be falling for that thing less and less as time goes on I'm not so sure. Maybe it explains why some working class Rust Belt voters preferred Trump's jobs message to Hillary's taxes and social services message.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:29
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:imagine being so politically illiterate that your definition of "elites" includes b-list celebs who require the proletariat to have money to function and advocate for socialism by necessity, instead of the fair-weather wall street billionaires who engage in wage thievery but keep putting up smokescreens like this to make people think they don't exist yet keep suckering the DNC into adopting class-exclusionary idpol So I'm actually not a member of the bourgeoisie then. Because you said I was because you assumed I was economically well-off in order to slander me. But if I was, then Ellen is also part of the bourgeoisie. My status as a rentier... gone with the breeze in order to engage in a constant shifting of rhetorical focus... 
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Dec 3, 2016 21:31
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rip effectronica, killed by terminal to-the-letter obsession with labels
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Dec 3, 2016 21:33
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Confounding Factor posted:These are distractions from the underlying problems: class. Elevating issues of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc above class does nothing but serve the interests of capital, as we have seen. Thus why liberals who prioritize those issues are reactionary, since capital wants to divide or unite us on its whim. White supremacy and patriarchy are tools which serve the interests of capital. Perhaps they need to be dismantled before real progress can be made in a socialist economic agenda.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:33
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Confounding Factor posted:These are distractions from the underlying problems: class. Elevating issues of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc above class does nothing but serve the interests of capital, as we have seen. Thus why liberals who prioritize those issues are reactionary, since capital wants to divide or unite us on its whim. Protip no they aren't.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:34
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:rip effectronica, killed by terminal to-the-letter obsession with labels I could have used that independent wealth you conjured up in order to put me on the defensive, you gently caress. Have you no sense of decency?
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Dec 3, 2016 21:34
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JeffersonClay posted:White supremacy and patriarchy are tools which serve the interests of capital. Perhaps they need to be dismantled before real progress can be made in a socialist economic agenda. Do you believe there will ever come a point in our lifetimes where racism and sexism are finally extinguished to the point where we can then focus on an economic agenda?
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Dec 3, 2016 21:36
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Rexicon1 posted:I have no loving clue what you clods are talking about in this thread. Everyone's talking past each other with smug satisfaction in their righteous cause without listening to a goddamn thing anyone says. Apparently there are 49 different definitions of identity politics and no one knows what the gently caress the problem is. A good summary of identity politics.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:37
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Sorry folks, getting rid of racism and sexism is pie in the sky daydreaming, now let me tell you about the communist utopia I have planned.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:37
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Have you thought that maybe we need to allow unions to exclude blacks.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:38
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UV_Catastrophe posted:Do you believe there will ever come a point in our lifetimes where racism and sexism are finally extinguished to the point where we can then focus on an economic agenda? This question implies that racism and sexism are more or less eternal, since it's meant to get him to say that it will take forever to get rid of them. This seems inconsistent with the idea that they were invented by capitalism, since surely in that case capitalism would be stronger than they.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:38
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stone cold posted:I am saying that by so called "fiscal leftists" in my life I have been told to shut my whore mouth, and that I can hold fiscally left values without being one of those toxic idiots. I'm sorry for being unclear, you pedantic wantwit. Oh, okay. It is like you are attempting to show that identity politics is toxic.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:39
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Brainiac Five posted:This question implies that racism and sexism are more or less eternal, since it's meant to get him to say that it will take forever to get rid of them. This seems inconsistent with the idea that they were invented by capitalism, since surely in that case capitalism would be stronger than they. Yes. We know the form of racism in America is the result of European colonialism at the behest of capital. The kind of racism that is opposed never existed before the development of capitalism.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:42
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Torpor posted:Oh, okay. It is like you are attempting to show that identity politics is toxic. What are you going to do to dismantle identity politics? Be realistic and don't just fall back on the standby of 'Full Communism now'.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:46
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Confounding Factor posted:Yes. We know the form of racism in America is the result of European colonialism at the behest of capital. The kind of racism that is opposed never existed before the development of capitalism. On the contrary, the East India Companies and the development of joint-stock companies en masse postdates the beginning of economic exploitation of the Americas, and was roughly concurrent with the beginnings of the casta system. The proto-racial system of limpieza de sangre dates to the post-Reconquista period, and the Canarian sugar plantations point to the beginnings of racialization. Industrial capitalism emerged more or less concurrent with the full-blown casta system in the Americas. Or we could look to earlier joint companies and conclude that capitalism does, in fact, go back to Catalhoyuk, which is not even wrong. EDIT: Then there's also sexism, which you ignored entirely and dishonestly.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:48
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Rexicon1 posted:I have no loving clue what you clods are talking about in this thread. Everyone's talking past each other with smug satisfaction in their righteous cause without listening to a goddamn thing anyone says. Apparently there are 49 different definitions of identity politics and no one knows what the gently caress the problem is. quote:Interesting that you put the "Q" before the "T", Neurolimited. Bip Roberts posted:Have you thought that maybe we need to allow unions to exclude blacks. OwlFancier posted:Sorry folks, getting rid of racism and sexism is pie in the sky daydreaming, now let me tell you about the communist utopia I have planned. Those responses to "Fiscal Leftism is important and we shouldn't backstab allies" are a pretty good definition of identity politics.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:52
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khwarezm posted:What are you going to do to dismantle identity politics? It's pretty simple; ignore it, vote for candidates who aren't squeamish about fiscal leftism, don't support primary candidates whos only message is "we're not like Trump!" Identity Politics is not the enemy of fiscal leftism. It's a roadblock at best, a bizarre internalization of the labels granted by the elite to divide them, taken with pride.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:54
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idpol is bad because it supposes there is more than one war, when in fact there is only one war also when did it become "idpol" because I'm pretty sure the first time I saw that was two days ago and now I see it everywhere
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Dec 3, 2016 21:55
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Yeah dude, gayness is a "label granted by the elite" to divide us. Karl Heinrich Ulrichs is the greatest homophobe of history.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:54
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Brainiac Five posted:Yeah dude, gayness is a "label granted by the elite" to divide us. Karl Heinrich Ulrichs is the greatest homophobe of history. Brainiac Five posted:But here's the thing. There's no loving oppression of white gays going on. None. The most that might happen is them getting their feelings hurt by a 17-year-old kid on Twitter. If that's oppression, what's gaybashing? Super oppression 64?
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Dec 3, 2016 21:57
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Torpor posted:Oh, okay. It is like you are attempting to show that identity politics is toxic. Well, white cishetboii politics is, and I guess that's an identity, so
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Dec 3, 2016 21:56
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Torpor posted:This is really not a good way to frame the discussion. What part of my post was wrong? Edit: People really are talking past each other when not trolling. I was serious when I said before that I think identity politics is a terrible term to use. woke kaczynski fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Dec 3, 2016 |
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Dec 3, 2016 21:56
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stone cold posted:I can hold social leftist and fiscal leftist positions without having to deal with leftboiis telling me to shut my whore mouth. Small wonder I don't want to engage so-called "fiscal leftists." Also, lol at whatever your abandonment complex is. It's no complex, friend. It happened in the primaries; any and all concerns about Hillary's competence in the GE and Sander's strength on both fiscal and social sides were handwaved with attempts to tar them as racist and sexist. It got to the point where Hillary surrogates were suggesting that there was a special place in hell for women who voted Sanders, and that Sanders obtained the vast majority of the 18-30 women's vote because they were strolling for dick.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:57
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