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The problem with loot boxes really shouldn't have to go beyond "Buying a thing that has a chance to be the thing you want is inherently worse and more exploitative than just buying the thing you want, and that is unacceptable." There is absolutely nothing positive that loot boxes do for games that could not be done in a more consumer friendly way. Microtransactions of other sorts are a separate conversation, but there really should be nobody even attempting to defend loot boxes. I expect we'll see a rise in the pay to not wait model, but I think that will go over like a lead balloon since it's way more obvious what they're doing and doesn't push the gambling buttons. Also can the whole "It's just cosmetic" thing be dropped? It's still part of the game gated behind gambling, even if you don't personally care about it, and Overwatch in particular is one of the worst for it due to timed exclusivity. chumbler fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Nov 22, 2017 |
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Nov 22, 2017 17:10
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So lovely f2p chat. Age of Wushu was an amazing idea for a game with some amazing history done by a lovely company and then given to the west to an even more lovely company. If you know things about chinese buisness culture, then you can probably guess what happened. The game absolutely tried to make you stay logged in as much as possible, as you only earned exp while logged in, but offered you a sub feature that let you log out. To make that clearer, anything you kill got you exp, but you didn't absorb it all and had to wait at a trickle wait but could log out to make that go faster. You could also stay logged in, go to special areas, or do events to make it go faster. There was a guy named GreatEast who owned GreatEast Insurance company in SE asia somewhere. He had a weekly budget of about $5,000 USD or his wife would get angry at him. And he spent it. To put this in perspective, that guy is spending roughly the same as 2,000 people a month who are subscribed to a normal mmo. And oh boy did we goons have someone who tried to compete with him and also threw money at the screen. Most players never did, most people you fought never had that crazy poo poo, and for a good period of time in that game throwing money at the screen didn't matter. Then it did. But people stopped spending money so the company would up prices on things to make those whales spend more or create a new server where people would enjoy the early part of the game and have to spend money all over again. These two people were not addicts, just people with a poo poo ton of wealth. On the other hand, I saw people that were not as well off spending $500-$1,000 a month because they were just addicted to the video game. The game was mostly about just buying power with the only example of a loot box I can think of was the begging system. If you gave cash shop currency to a beggar, it would lower your infamy from killing other players and give you a bag. The bigger the tip, the better the bag, and the higher chance of certain skills or a costume and less chance of getting literal poo poo. Also the beggar got no money for this. The average player didn't pay anything or maybe $10-$15 a month. Third World Reagan fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Nov 22, 2017 |
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Nov 22, 2017 17:14
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chumbler posted:Also can the whole "It's just cosmetic" thing be dropped? It's still part of the game gated behind gambling, even if you don't personally care about it, and Overwatch in particular is one of the worst for it due to timed exclusivity. Agreed, Overwatch is in your face with the gifting of free lootboxes and it's a gateway to spending money and nothing else. What should happen is every skin and spray and emote and highlight should have a cost in Coins and you earn those coins playing the game or by a direct coin>real money cost. I know people will say "but people will only buy what they want" so have timed specials, have unlocks like "collect everything from Hanzo and get a free gold trashcan skin" or whatever. Just stop plying the emotions and highs of gambling, there are lots of ways to make bank of a free to play game, pick the least insidious (subscription costs IMO).
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Nov 22, 2017 17:22
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precision posted:For whales, I'm sure it does. As a general average, I doubt it. not sure what you mean by whales, but I'm guessing you mean outliers who spend a ton on gaming stuff? - but I really doubt they are of particular concern to credit card companies compared to regular consumers who rack up huge amounts of debt at malls or HSN or Amazon all the time, and considering the degree to which this behavior is encouraged in mainstream media, I doubt the credit card companies have any problem with either and in fact are very happy with it.
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Nov 22, 2017 17:24
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chumbler posted:Also can the whole "It's just cosmetic" thing be dropped? It's still part of the game gated behind gambling, even if you don't personally care about it, and Overwatch in particular is one of the worst for it due to timed exclusivity. I think its a worthwhile distinction, paying for something cosmetic is different from paying for something that gives you an actual competitive advantage in a game, it's technically part of the game but it doesn't affect actual gameplay
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Nov 22, 2017 17:28
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I don't think it is different. They both have a different outcome on the gameplay, sure, but it's the same system implemented in the same way for the same reasons. Gameplay advantages are to some an additional incentive, but the system itself is the same whether it includes that aspect or not.
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Nov 22, 2017 17:31
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From reddit, about an EA racing game https://my.mixtape.moe/xoyryw.mp4
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Nov 22, 2017 17:31
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GTA Online is a very depressing end game of tuning the hell out of game to all be about microtransactions and it doesn't even use lootboxes. The game is incredibly tight fisted and just designed to be a huge time investment that looks like a normal playable game until you go for a while and realize it's tuned to take dozens of hours to make a million in profit. Sure they add new content but it's not meant to be balanced or realistically obtainable. It's supposed to grind you down to spend $20 to get the million to buy a car, business or house. A lot of the business activities use the open world which conveniently allows people who own armored cars , attack helicopters and fighter jets that cost several million to blow you up and wipe out your earnings,
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Nov 22, 2017 17:35
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Earwicker posted:I think its a worthwhile distinction, paying for something cosmetic is different from paying for something that gives you an actual competitive advantage in a game, it's technically part of the game but it doesn't affect actual gameplay The only distinction is that they are less likely to get away with straight up selling gameplay advantages. The system is equally unacceptable either way.
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Nov 22, 2017 17:36
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Personally I would like cosmetics in loot boxes, but I am pretty sure we can't have that when government steps in and creates a law about this. I loved planetide 1 and disliked planetside 2. In 1, each team has unique colors and shapes so it is easy to tell people apart at a glance. In planetside 2 they went the other way and although there are still some shape differences, you can paint your self up to be pretty or hard to distinguish from an enemy. If both of these were in a loot box, and you tried to say "no unfair advantage" in a video game, how do you write a law so that it would distinguish between an unfair advantage and a fair advantage when it comes to certain camos or skins.
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Nov 22, 2017 17:40
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CJacobs posted:I don't think it is different. They both have a different outcome on the gameplay, sure, but it's the same system implemented in the same way for the same reasons. Gameplay advantages are to some an additional incentive, but the system itself is the same whether it includes that aspect or not. Here's why I think it is different. Say you have a racing game. In a normal racing game the object, the main core of the game, is to drive better than everyone else and win the thing. If you introduce a gambling mechanic that allows players to spend real money for a new paint job for those cars, this does not negatively affect the core gameplay - winning is still determined by who drove better. So the actual game itself is more or less the same. If the same game introduces a gambling mechanic that allows players to spend real money on better engines or handling, that's very different because now the gambling and real money is having a direct effect on the core gameplay, and changing the competition from "who drove better?" to "who spent more?". To me that completely erases the point of the game itself. I'm not saying that purely cosmetic lootboxes are a good thing, btw, I'd be happy if they went away and skins etc. were just free like they used to be, but I do think they have a much less significant effect on how the games work.
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Nov 22, 2017 17:40
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Loot boxes, loot crates, and pay to win are great if you actually have a job and aren’t some basement dwelling poor loving dickhead who can spend 80 hours to get lovely Axe +4. I make 80k a year and have no qualms spending some money to get ahead in a game. You poor loving retards should stop QQing because you lost a match. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 22, 2017 17:41
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Earwicker posted:Here's why I think it is different. Say you have a racing game. In a normal racing game the object, the main core of the game, is to drive better than everyone else and win the thing. If you introduce a gambling mechanic that allows players to spend real money for a new paint job for those cars, this does not negatively affect the core gameplay - winning is still determined by who drove better. So the actual game itself is more or less the same. My point is that the conversation's not about how it affects the game, though, it's about how it affects the audience. How it affects the game is a totally separate issue than whether or not the idea of paying for loot boxes etc should be regulated or legal or so on.
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Nov 22, 2017 17:44
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Earwicker posted:not sure what you mean by whales, but I'm guessing you mean outliers who spend a ton on gaming stuff? - but I really doubt they are of particular concern to credit card companies compared to regular consumers who rack up huge amounts of debt at malls or HSN or Amazon all the time, and considering the degree to which this behavior is encouraged in mainstream media, I doubt the credit card companies have any problem with either and in fact are very happy with it. You may well be right, I'm just saying I'd like to have definite confirmation one way or the other if this is something credit card companies have an issue with - like I said, almost nobody can use their credit card in casinos. One thing that puzzles me about "cosmetic" loot boxes is... well, everything. I can't wrap my brain around caring so much about virtual costumes. Especially in games like Overwatch, other players aren't actually going to see them very well or pay attention if they do, are they? Like in Destiny 2, I don't look at other players and think "huh, that's awesome", I'm too busy... playing the game? Don't get me wrong, I love playing virtual Barbie in every game that allows it, including aforementioned AC: Origins, but I can't imagine caring so much as to spend money gambling on maybe getting a purple hat. I just really don't get it.
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Nov 22, 2017 17:45
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For real microtransactions take nothing away from the game thats already there, and really arent that expensive at all. Theres so much bitching because these losers cant get their mommys credit card more than once a month. You want the lootboxes get a job its that simple
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Nov 22, 2017 17:46
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Liquid Drink posted:Loot boxes, loot crates, and pay to win are great if you actually have a job and aren’t some basement dwelling poor loving dickhead who can spend 80 hours to get lovely Axe +4. I make 80k a year and have no qualms spending some money to get ahead in a game. You poor loving retards should stop QQing because you lost a match. lmao holy poo poo
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Nov 22, 2017 17:46
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Don’t like it, don’t buy it. But stop complaining about how people with more money are better than you, because we are.
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Nov 22, 2017 17:48
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CJacobs posted:My point is that the conversation's not about how it affects the game, though, it's about how it affects the audience. How it affects the game is a totally separate issue than whether or not the idea of paying for loot boxes etc should be regulated or legal or so on. I think how it effects the game has a large part to do with how it affects the audience and whether it is considered "gambling". There are forms of gambling that are legal if you do not have a chance to win anything back - video poker for example. In the context of video games it could be argued that a form of gambling that involves substantive changes to gameplay especially if there is a competitive advantage over other players could be considered a form of a payout. With something purely cosmetic I'm not sure the same arguments would really go as far.
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Nov 22, 2017 17:51
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The fact that guy cant even post truth about lootboxes without a probation proves the real problem with lootbox culture: the assmad caretards that are too poor to enjoy gaming and want to ruin it for the rest. Typical numale liberal way of thinking
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Nov 22, 2017 17:52
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Liquid Drink posted:Loot boxes, loot crates, and pay to win are great if you actually have a job and aren’t some basement dwelling poor loving dickhead who can spend 80 hours to get lovely Axe +4. I make 80k a year and have no qualms spending some money to get ahead in a game. You poor loving retards should stop QQing because you lost a match. Sir, this is a Starbucks drive through.
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Nov 22, 2017 17:54
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HORMELCHILI posted:The fact that guy cant even post truth about lootboxes without a probation proves the real problem with lootbox culture: the assmad caretards that are too poor to enjoy gaming and want to ruin it for the rest. Typical numale liberal way of thinking No, it was ignoring the be civil rule. I do not understand the point of coming into the thread just to be inflamatory when a lot of people are actually discussing something and not in the way Games is usually seen by the rest of the forums to be discussing something.
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Nov 22, 2017 17:54
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Liquid Drink posted:Loot boxes, loot crates, and pay to win are great if you actually have a job and aren’t some basement dwelling poor loving dickhead who can spend 80 hours to get lovely Axe +4. I make 80k a year and have no qualms spending some money to get ahead in a game. You poor loving retards should stop QQing because you lost a match. I don't appreciate this tone, I can buy enough of lootboxes on my NEET salary, thank you very much. And for what its worth I'm also subscribed to several LootCrate services, giving physical random rewards every month, which brings what was a solely digital enjoyment to the physical world. It's epic, and, amazing. Lootboxes aren't the problem, it's only people who refuse to see them as the new business model of gaming. It's the future, and it's here. Get used to it. I love to further fund devs who make epic games I enjoy, like Assassin's Creed. I hope Bethesda has the good sense to include lootboxes in the next Elder Scrolls instalment, Skyrim 2.
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Nov 22, 2017 17:55
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Forums posts on SA are like loot boxes it costs money to have them and often they are poo poo
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Nov 22, 2017 17:56
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Third World Reggin posted:Forums posts on SA are like loot boxes
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Nov 22, 2017 17:57
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I probably spend a lot more on cigarettes and weed than most gamers do on loot boxes, that doesn't really mean anything. I'm actually fairly certain most SA posters make good money.
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Nov 22, 2017 17:59
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HORMELCHILI posted:liberal Lol, goddamn, 2 pages in
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Nov 22, 2017 18:03
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Third World Reggin posted:Forums posts on SA are like loot boxes Hahaha god drat.  I see the irony police are invading the thread, that's cool.
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Nov 22, 2017 18:06
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Victoria, Australia has joined in: https://powerup-gaming.com/2017/11/22/victorian-gambling-authority-loot-boxes-gambling/ It could see future games with gambling rated R, of the other 5 states/federal government agree
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Nov 22, 2017 18:08
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So are trading cards considered gambling now too? I have not paid attention to that world in decades. But sometimes I do think about the fact that when I was in high school (in the 90's) I sold my deck of mtg cards to my brother for $45 which at the time was around $20 profit and if I still held on to those cards until today they'd probably be worth thousands.
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Nov 22, 2017 18:11
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While lootboxes are pretty lousy, I have to confess I did spend some coin on some CoD stuff. Namely Infinite Warfare, but also Black Ops 3. My memory's saying I spent like $75 on Blops 3 MTX and $90ish on IW. Do I regret that? Leaning on no, but some regret over The Lousy Rares has occurred. Add to that my mobile spending habits (previously FFRK, now PaD) and I might be that rear end in a top hat who spends probably too much on MTX. But not really, most I blew on waifus is like... I think $80-$100 on one collab that was double price. I think my issue is that since I'm some rear end in a top hat who lives with the folks, my money spending might be a bit fucky. Add to that some real cheap health benefits from my job and yeap I somehow see Apple receipts totalling $80. There's some regret but that kinda subsides after a bit.
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Nov 22, 2017 18:11
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Loot boxes in games are the same as gambling in the sense that they both try to curate an environment to get you to lose track of things and start dumping small amounts of money over an extended period of time that you sure as hell wouldn't spend if it was one large sum. Casinos have no windows, give you free drinks, and curate an intoxicating environment that overwhelms your senses - much like how games will turn your real money into a fake currency that you then turn into loot crates, or constantly poke at you with reminders that hey, if you're stuck on something, buy a loot crate! Oh, you're in a guild? Don't you wanna be competitive and contribute? You know you need that extra boost, man. It's an incredibly lovely system that rewards the worst in people, and it's not like this money goes to support developers - it goes to executives and shareholders, who cheat on their taxes and are completely out of touch with what players want - you can see this with Battlefront 2 trying to be a big box of all Star Wars for everyone, instead of smaller, separate experiences that people look fondly on, like Jedi Outcast (lightsabers) or Rogue Squadron (spaceships).
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Nov 22, 2017 18:14
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Earwicker posted:So are trading cards considered gambling now too? I mentioned this earlier but left one thing out There are established laws to exempt them as gambling. The attourney in this video talks about it a bit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zXJL459eUY about 29 minutes in
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Nov 22, 2017 18:17
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Third World Reggin posted:Personally I would like cosmetics in loot boxes, but I am pretty sure we can't have that when government steps in and creates a law about this. You do what games used to do and put the cosmetic options as a part of the base game so that people can choose what they want if they want, and not feel like they are missing out. Cosmetic items being pay walled isn't nearly as bad as straight advantages, but it's still poo poo that isn't actually justifiable if you remember how the system worked pre-microtransaction.
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Nov 22, 2017 18:20
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Earwicker posted:So are trading cards considered gambling now too? This is a tricky one for me here, in an MTG booster you get 15 cards, 10 commons, 3 uncommons, 1 rare or mythic rare, 1 promo card (token, tip card, advertisement or other supplementary card) and 1 basic land. These sell for about $4 Wizards of the Coast (WotC) pretty much refuses to acknowledge the secondary market for the very reason that doing so is an implied admission that individual cards have a value higher than the sum of the sealed product. To put it simply, as far as WotC is concerned every card in that $4 pack is worth .26c or 1/15th the price of the product. We all know this is bullshit, tons of MTG players crack packs hoping for that sweet chase rare or standard playable mythic. There are whole million dollar business built around pricing individual cards and assigning a value to each and every one. However if I want that sweet mythic rare for my deck I'm not forced to sit opening pack after pack hoping for it to be in there. I can go to one of these many businesses and just pay the value of the card. If that card is $20 (average price for a standard mythic give or take) I can ask myself "do I want to open 4-5 packs and hope to pull it, or do I just drop $20 and get it anyway?". Does WotC want me doing this? gently caress no Does WotC want be buying pack after pack to get it? Hell yes Has MTG got a predominately young audience they market buying the packs to? Abso-loving-lutely. The problem here is how does the game continue without this model? It doesn't. There is no way they could sustain the game by just selling every card individually at the same price. However that being said if I were a shareholder at WotC I would be very very interested and more than a little nervous about the outcome of all this.
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Nov 22, 2017 18:30
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Third World Reggin posted:Forums posts on SA are like loot boxes lmao
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Nov 22, 2017 18:32
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Loot boxes are just designed to prey on the people who have gambling addictions but chose video games as their hobby instead of going to the casino also third world reggin knows his bad game decisions
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Nov 22, 2017 18:33
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Earwicker posted:So are trading cards considered gambling now too? Card games can't be rigged on what cards you get. Yes they could remove rare cards but it is still random and any rigging would take those cards out of the pool for everyone purchasing booster packs. In games it is a coded system which could have updates after launch to edit the odds of certain drops. Or change odds for people more willing to spend money to hook them into spending more.
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Nov 22, 2017 18:33
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Also here is a 1 hour pod cast from the dude in the video about loot boxes. https://headgum.com/robot-congress/robot-congress-52-are-loot-boxes-gambling-ft-marc-whipple Both that video and this podcast was done before battlefront 2 launched. Third World Reagan fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Nov 22, 2017 |
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Nov 22, 2017 18:35
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Earwicker posted:So are trading cards considered gambling now too? For that matter are random drops from monsters? I think it might have been the star wars mmo which had you find loot randomly through gameplay as usual for those games, but you had to pay some kind of small fee to actually equip it. If loot crates get banned I could see some those games making loot drop from game content and instead sell "magic find" boosters and the like, like some already do.
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Nov 22, 2017 18:39
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I actually thought battlefront 2's implementation was bad but mostly tolerable, but I also recognize that its only the beginning as far as what developers would like to do.
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Nov 22, 2017 18:39
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