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Midjack
Dec 24, 2007



Thirsty Dog posted:

It wasn't entertaining, just dismissive and a bit sneering.
sic semper fandom

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CodfishCartographer
Feb 23, 2010

Gadus Maprocephalus

Pillbug
Yeah within the first year or so I tried giving feedback on some game design decisions they were making, and basically got told that my concerns don't matter so I stopped trying.

berenzen
Jan 23, 2012

Yeah, it's honestly one of the reasons why I just eventually stopped playing. They were so obviously taking feedback only from their inner clique that it soured me a lot on it.

Sam Sanskrit
Mar 18, 2007

This feels like I stepped on snakes nest of weird mad internet people. I promise this is not worth being angry over and is in fact mostly in your guys head. I don't really think there are that many who are that much worse then like Esa ecoterrorist (which I get is a thing we all kind of like in fictional characters. They are basically Cloud!) except that one dude who is racist against bioroids. I have always read the runners as mostly heroic weather they are anti-authoritarian slackers or like fun Oceans Eleven thief's with like some grime for texture.

Slyphic
Oct 12, 2021

All we do is walk around believing birds!

Sam Sanskrit posted:

This feels like I stepped on snakes nest of weird mad internet people. I promise this is not worth being angry over and is in fact mostly in your guys head.
That's some real narcissist framing. "it didn't happen, but if it did it wasn't that big of a deal"

Spector29
Nov 28, 2016

Sam Sanskrit posted:

I have always read the runners as mostly heroic weather they are anti-authoritarian slackers or like fun Oceans Eleven thief's with like some grime for texture.

Apex is a runner. Wasn't there a runner that was working for the corps as a white-hat, as well?

Slyphic
Oct 12, 2021

All we do is walk around believing birds!

Spector29 posted:

Apex is a runner. Wasn't there a runner that was working for the corps as a white-hat, as well?

Sam Sanskrit
Mar 18, 2007

Slyphic posted:

That's some real narcissist framing. "it didn't happen, but if it did it wasn't that big of a deal"

Well in your case when you were mocked and ridiculed was it after you said something with the general vibe of: " I'd throw down money I've spent more time on picket lines than everyone employed at NSG combined." Because sometimes when people are talking you notice them say something so ridiculous that you don't really have have to take them seriously anymore.

Captain Theron
Mar 22, 2010

Sam Sanskrit posted:

Well in your case when you were mocked and ridiculed was it after you said something with the general vibe of: " I'd throw down money I've spent more time on picket lines than everyone employed at NSG combined." Because sometimes when people are talking you notice them say something so ridiculous that you don't really have have to take them seriously anymore.

I promise this is not worth being angry over and is in fact mostly in your head.

Cheen
Apr 17, 2005

Sam Sanskrit posted:

Well in your case when you were mocked and ridiculed was it after you said something with the general vibe of: " I'd throw down money I've spent more time on picket lines than everyone employed at NSG combined." Because sometimes when people are talking you notice them say something so ridiculous that you don't really have have to take them seriously anymore.

multiple folks here have said they had a similar experience so I'm wondering what the huge bug up your rear end is

dishwasherlove
Nov 26, 2007

The ultimate fusion of man and machine.

Other than NSG stepping on about 5 of their own rakes they put out on their own (name change, card back change, printing delays) I am happy they exist and the current direction seems ok, but I'm not playing comp.

Discord for anything when it reaches a certain number of users is generally a trashfire so I take that with a grain of salt.

Thirsty Dog
May 31, 2007

Sam Sanskrit posted:

This feels like I stepped on snakes nest of weird mad internet people. I promise this is not worth being angry over and is in fact mostly in your guys head. I don't really think there are that many who are that much worse then like Esa ecoterrorist (which I get is a thing we all kind of like in fictional characters. They are basically Cloud!) except that one dude who is racist against bioroids. I have always read the runners as mostly heroic weather they are anti-authoritarian slackers or like fun Oceans Eleven thief's with like some grime for texture.

I don't think anyone here is angry and most of us like the product NSG puts out

Slyphic
Oct 12, 2021

All we do is walk around believing birds!

Sam Sanskrit posted:

Well in your case when you were mocked and ridiculed was it after you said something with the general vibe of: " I'd throw down money I've spent more time on picket lines than everyone employed at NSG combined." Because sometimes when people are talking you notice them say something so ridiculous that you don't really have have to take them seriously anymore.
You would make a good NSG moderator.

I think the first time one of them went aggro on me was because I said I hoped Uprising had more Jinteki style misdirection and I was told that was noob poo poo and a whole lecture about how I need to grow up as a player. The last was about the Core Damage change and how that was kind of a major loss of theme, a needless disconnect between FFG and NSG cards, and a solution in search of a problem. The response I got was their canned reply to any and all attempts to talk about it. "Eat poo poo" and a temp ban.

Chaotic Flame
Jun 1, 2009

So...


To move things back to FFG for a second, I ended up falling down a hole after I asked about completing my FFG collection.

If you have a complete FFG collection, there are some neat options for using the card pool.

Snapshot - from the NSG site - This format is a “snapshot” of the meta at Magnum Opus 2018, the culmination of FFG Organized Play. It will see minimal changes unless strictly necessary.

Frankfurt30 - 30 (or 42 from an expansion) decks that use the full FFG card pool with no duplicates across decks. Based on themes and apparently balanced with each other so you can essentially make it pick-up-and-play and have all decks constructed at once. You can find all the decklists on netrunnerdb.

Netrunner Classic Format - this is a different ban / restricted list of cards to bring the older cards back into the fold and make the game more balanced. Can be used with the physical card pool. This project also led to

The Netrunner Reboot Project - this is a complete reboot of the FFG cards but is set up online using a site similar to Jinteki.net. There are tweaks to card values to make things more balanced and seems really interesting. Won't be delving too much into this myself personally since I want to use my physical collection but it does seem pretty cool based on what I read and remember of the old games.

Chaotic Flame fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Oct 19, 2023

Carteret
Nov 10, 2012


Chaotic Flame posted:



Frankfurt30 - 30 (or 42 from an expansion) decks that use the full FFG card pool with no duplicates across decks. Based on themes and apparently balanced with each other so you can essentially make it pick-up-and-play and have all decks constructed at once. You can find all the decklists on netrunnerdb.



I had never heard of this before now, and will definitely be tackling this project once all of FFG rotates out of the Nisei card pool.

edit : man i completely forgot about Caissa Reina. I loved playing that era of Anarch.

Carteret fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Oct 19, 2023

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007



Carteret posted:

I had never heard of this before now, and will definitely be tackling this project once all of FFG rotates out of the Nisei card pool.

edit : man i completely forgot about Caissa Reina. I loved playing that era of Anarch.

Caissa was fun and I wish they'd built that out some more.

panko
Sep 6, 2005

~honda best man~


arissana’s (newest shaper ID) trojan-focused gameplay plays like a trickier, more powerful caissa, I recommend giving her a try if you’re interested in the new stuff

also that this thread has had 20+ posts in it recently and virtually no discussion of worlds 2023 in barcelona does nothing to disabuse the notion that trad games is primarily populated by overly-vocal casuals, scrubs, and curmudgeons :gary:

overall ID spread:


top cut:


stronger than expected showing by sable, who, like hoshiko, has proven possible to build in several different ways to meet the meta such as aeneas informant and miss bones to counter asset spam, mystic maemi + twinning to play discounted events like diversion of funds while building multiaccesses, and, most commonly and successfully, deep dive taking advantage of her identity power. nevertheless the “star” of the show was again hoshiko, with first place in the tourbament going to a build which leveraged bankhar, one of the strongest and most versatile access tools ever printed, in conjunction with raindrops cut stone, boomerang and maw, earning sokka234 his second consecutive worlds victory and cementing his rep as one of, if not the best to ever do it. congrats to him.

corp side was mostly several different colours of asset spam: Ob out of weyland, Asa out of HB, NEH out of NBN, and jinteki in the mud (though bridgeman’s as-yet unpublished Restoring Humanity build was 1st in swiss). the recent banning of dr. keeling took the teeth out of the most successful jinteki build (aginfusion glacier) but seems to have accomplished the stated goal of making games go quicker.

standard is in a good place right now, with anarch top dog but crim close at its heels, a powerful and techy shaper for the paid ability window freaks, and a healthy spread of corp IDs across the spectrum. the remaining FFG stuff is set to rotate out next year, meaning we’re likely to get a huge set with a lot of functional reprints, so if you’re even slightly interested in plugging in again or for the first time, 2024 will be an excellent year to do so. just don’t be surprised if anarch’s on top yet again at worlds 2024.

Impermanent
Apr 1, 2010
They've said that Dawn has few if any nearprints, but we'll see

fatherboxx
Mar 25, 2013

Vidmaster posted:

Whenever you make a successful run on R&D, trash the top card and replace it with a "Pregnant Sonic Fanart" card.

Thank for Pichacao alter idea, gotta go fast

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Slyphic posted:

The last was about the Core Damage change and how that was kind of a major loss of theme, a needless disconnect between FFG and NSG cards, and a solution in search of a problem. The response I got was their canned reply to any and all attempts to talk about it. "Eat poo poo" and a temp ban.
Do you mean changing the text from brain damage to core damage? Because that was a good change.

fatherboxx
Mar 25, 2013

Splicer posted:

Do you mean changing the text from brain damage to core damage? Because that was a good change.

It was silly, just as most of NSG overly corporate sensitivity corrections and makes it look like damage to rig instead of lobotomy from talking to bioroids too much.

Impermanent
Apr 1, 2010
Hmm I'm getting a weird vibe from you all now. Kind of regret bringing it up. Didn't realize I was going to bring out the brain damage defense squad. "Waa they changed the name of a mechanism from a common traumatic injury to a non triggering sci fi term" is not the path I saw this going down.

The Deleter
May 22, 2010
Yeah this poo poo reads as really bitter for no real gain and I regret even being sideways involved in the discussion.

Thirsty Dog
May 31, 2007

I agree with changing "brain damage" even though it's a literal descriptor of what was happening thematically, and I'm not sure there's actual harm from keeping it as is, but "core damage" is meaningless and empty as a replacement. It evokes absolutely nothing of the original flavour.

It's not even slightly important and I don't know how the hell Slyphic copped a ban for it (I suspect we're missing a lot of context) but the change is one of a number of decisions made for seemingly good reasons that weren't thought through.

Unfortunately it does seem like any attempt to explain even the slightest negative response to something that is angled as a purely positive change is enough to get labeled as a weirdo in this thread, but I'm not! Well I am but not about this stuff! I support any development group that thinks about these things and makes changes appropriately! (See also Guild Ball moving away from gendered abilities and anything to do with mental health like 'crazy')

E: yeah Slyphic is definitely bitter and probably with good reason, but I suspect the rest of us are maybe just mildly disappointed at most?

blindidiotgod
Jan 9, 2005



I'm kinda bored of Slyphic popping up around each release to tell us how NSG didn't, or keeps, not listening to them, the yomiest, most accurate about the theme of core damage and now the most activist person around.

NSGs need to put flavour text on every single card is exhausting. Like, c'mon, less is more is a saying for a reason.

General Battuta
Feb 7, 2011

This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.
Bore damage

Slyphic
Oct 12, 2021

All we do is walk around believing birds!

blindidiotgod posted:

I'm kinda bored of Slyphic popping up around each release to tell us how NSG didn't, or keeps, not listening to them, the yomiest, most accurate about the theme of core damage and now the most activist person around.
Only came up because someone called me a liar. I made a throwaway comment and was happily daydreaming cool scuzzy runners. Be the change you want to see in this thread and talk about cool netrunner poo poo instead of thread drama, especially if it's the only thing you've posted in four and a half years.

Slyphic fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Oct 20, 2023

Destrado
Feb 9, 2001

I thought, What a nice little city, it suits me fine. It suited me fine so I started to change it.

panko posted:

also that this thread has had 20+ posts in it recently and virtually no discussion of worlds 2023 in barcelona does nothing to disabuse the notion that trad games is primarily populated by overly-vocal casuals, scrubs, and curmudgeons :gary:


Worlds was won off a six-counter Clearinghouse and Restoring Humanity was top of Swiss.

Dog deck?

mulchmulchmulch?

Thread: "I'm still mad about core damage from two years ago. Also my genius ideas were not immediately integrated into the production cycle."

Game doing just fine, bud.

Destrado fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Oct 19, 2023

Magnetic North
Dec 15, 2008

Beware the Forest's Mushrooms

This deck looks rad. We all were wondering if this would be a deck when we saw Strike Fund and The Price, but Audrey V2 seems to make it possible. I like that it's mostly new NSG cards (except Labor Rights, Fenris and the console). I wonder if it will still be okay when Knobkerie rotates, but honestly I'd like a new virus console, please. I want to just run Cookbooks and be stupid.

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

fatherboxx posted:

It was silly, just as most of NSG overly corporate sensitivity corrections and makes it look like damage to rig instead of lobotomy from talking to bioroids too much.
Using statistics from my own country, approximately 0.2% of the population suffer a temporary or permanent brain injury every year. Or that was the case up until 2019. The latest studies indicate approximately 1 in 20 Irish people are living with long covid, over half of whom experience a meaningful reduction in their capacity for memory, mental arithmetic, mental stamina etc.

Many brain injuries are invisible to those who do not have them, because people with brain injuries compensate if they can. Someone may come out of an event "fine" except for increased fatigue, or colour blindness, or chronic, ongoing, incurable pain. They may suffer no effects other than completely losing the ability to recognise faces. Brains are weird.

Several of my friends have issues from both acquired and congenital brain injuries, including long covid, as well as non-brain disabilities. We enjoy playing board games together and compensating can be as simple as card holders to reduce fatigue, playing games with open information if someone has difficulty with reading, or a notepad to keep track of the math and a gentleman's agreement on backsies due to simple arithmetic errors. And everyone I know with long covid is on a knife edge of not knowing of what, if any, of what they have lost is ever going to come back.

Nobody I've described would enjoy being told "lol get brain damaged idiot" at game night and I'd feel like a prick doing it. Blowing the poo poo out of their rig is, however, funny as hell.

Splicer fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Oct 19, 2023

fatherboxx
Mar 25, 2013


Well I guess virus counters are next

Destrado
Feb 9, 2001

I thought, What a nice little city, it suits me fine. It suited me fine so I started to change it.

fatherboxx posted:

Well I guess virus counters are next

drat, gottem, what a slam-dunk zinger to a genuine attempt at an empathetic response.

Thirsty Dog
May 31, 2007

Ultimately if people who have suffered brain trauma find references like this to be upsetting, triggering, or even simply depressing then there's little good reason to not replace them appropriately.

I think the long covid reference is a bit of a leap, as someone who has many of those symptoms via the joys of ADHD I can't say the term brain damage even feels remotely relevant but again, if long covid sufferers do then that's something else entirely

Slyphic
Oct 12, 2021

All we do is walk around believing birds!
The difference in prickishness between "[Hypoxia] lol get brain damaged idiot" and "[Hypoxia] lol get core damaged idiot" is at best 0.2% Your brain damage figures are low. You don't need 'long' covid, every infection causes brain damage. The lower end on perceptible damage is the loss of smell.

The game still has brain damage in it no matter what dumb label you slap on it. [Salvo Testing] surprised me, considering the number of people I know with TBIs from military service around artillery. I know way fewer damaged from arguing with bioroids, but with the rise of 'ai' support bots...

Cheen
Apr 17, 2005

Splicer posted:

Using statistics from my own country, approximately 0.2% of the population suffer a temporary or permanent brain injury every year. Or that was the case up until 2019. The latest studies indicate approximately 1 in 20 Irish people are living with long covid, over half of whom experience a meaningful reduction in their capacity for memory, mental arithmetic, mental stamina etc.

Many brain injuries are invisible to those who do not have them, because people with brain injuries compensate if they can. Someone may come out of an event "fine" except for increased fatigue, or colour blindness, or chronic, ongoing, incurable pain. They may suffer no effects other than completely losing the ability to recognise faces. Brains are weird.

Several of my friends have issues from both acquired and congenital brain injuries, including long covid, as well as non-brain disabilities. We enjoy playing board games together and compensating can be as simple as card holders to reduce fatigue, playing games with open information if someone has difficulty with reading, or a notepad to keep track of the math and a gentleman's agreement on backsies due to simple arithmetic errors. And everyone I know with long covid is on a knife edge of not knowing of what, if any, of what they have lost is ever going to come back.

Nobody I've described would enjoy being told "lol get brain damaged idiot" at game night and I'd feel like a prick doing it. Blowing the poo poo out of their rig is, however, funny as hell.

This is interesting, as I have a pretty large group of gaming folks and I don't think people have ever brought up the need/desire for adjustments for brain injury/long covid. I wonder if this is an American norms thing or not having given people the space to share that information. Is there anything in particular you have done to give people the space to share their struggles or are these people who you know well enough that they've shared these with you in private?

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Thirsty Dog posted:

Ultimately if people who have suffered brain trauma find references like this to be upsetting, triggering, or even simply depressing then there's little good reason to not replace them appropriately.

I think the long covid reference is a bit of a leap, as someone who has many of those symptoms via the joys of ADHD I can't say the term brain damage even feels remotely relevant but again, if long covid sufferers do then that's something else entirely
The brain damage cards feeling super lovely to someone with recent brain damage isn't a hypothetical, it's from actual conversations I've had with real life friends with recent brain damage. When I found out about the change to core damage and the reprints and passed that on they were very, very happy.

I also have (long term but only recently diagnosed and medicated) ADHD but have always been really good at mental math. Suddenly losing that would devastate me.

Slyphic
Oct 12, 2021

All we do is walk around believing birds!

Cheen posted:

This is interesting, as I have a pretty large group of gaming folks and I don't think people have ever brought up the need/desire for adjustments for brain injury/long covid. I wonder if this is an American norms thing or not having given people the space to share that information.

As our core tabletop group ages up, we're starting to have to make adjustments. Neuropathy scrapped a few dexterity dependent games entirely, card holders, dice and token trays, sleeves (easier to pickup cards) have been more frequent.

But I also play miniature and hex & counter wargames and that group is on average retired with grand kids. Among a whole host of physically debilitating conditions including near total loss of sight, hearing, hand control, speech, or the ability to sit or stand or reach, there's a frank understanding of the inevitability of mental impairment and how to accommodate it. I've played with people that used to be sharp as hell, but they're staring down the bleak pit of alzheimer's, dementia, or other directly debilitating brain damage, or they had a stroke that hit more than just their motorcortex. Not to mention the ubiquity of dying friends and spouses and the ensuing depression.

There's a lot of reference sheets, note taking, extra time to reassess and reorientate on the game state. Also just a lot of direct person-to-person helping, whether it's moving a component, reading a label, 'what were we just doing' or 'how does this work again' and patient friendly answers. Sometimes it's picking different games entirely.

Slyphic fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Oct 19, 2023

Thirsty Dog
May 31, 2007

Splicer posted:

The brain damage cards feeling super lovely to someone with recent brain damage isn't a hypothetical, it's from actual conversations I've had with real life friends with recent brain damage. When I found out about the change to core damage and the reprints and passed that on they were very, very happy.

I also have (long term but only recently diagnosed and medicated) ADHD but have always been really good at mental math. Suddenly losing that would devastate me.

Yes, I was acknowledging that if it bothers people with brain damage it absolutely is a good thing to change. My issue is what they changed it to, but it's a minor thing. I'm glad it was received positively!

My mental math is dreadful and my short term memory practically non existent without meds, which is one reason why I'm so so bad at these games

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Cheen posted:

This is interesting, as I have a pretty large group of gaming folks and I don't think people have ever brought up the need/desire for adjustments for brain injury/long covid. I wonder if this is an American norms thing or not having given people the space to share that information. Is there anything in particular you have done to give people the space to share their struggles or are these people who you know well enough that they've shared these with you in private?
Can't really go into details without going super doxy unfortunately (Ireland is not a large country) but a bit of both and also existing group dynamics. Also I was a very lovely person in my teens and early 20s so "what would old splicer do, pick the other one" is a pretty good metric for being a trustworthy person people feel comfortable around.

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Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Thirsty Dog posted:

Yes, I was acknowledging that if it bothers people with brain damage it absolutely is a good thing to change. My issue is what they changed it to, but it's a minor thing. I'm glad it was received positively!
Whoops, lost an important couple of words due to editing. It should read "recent brain damage /due to covid/". Leaving that out definitely changed the tone of my response, sorry about that!

Splicer fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Oct 19, 2023

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