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This is something I've been giving a significant amount of thought to over the past few months. I don't like the direction things are going in the U.S., and while I recognize that things are going the same direction in the EU in a lot of ways, so far France has managed to fight off the worst of Le Front Nationale and the Le Pens. I choose France because it's an EU country that is unlikely to Frexit anytime soon, has the sort of weather I like, and I speak some French (four years of high school french, a year of college French, and a month in France about 20 years ago, I would describe myself as "not quite conversational;" I've been using DuoLingo to brush up over the past few weeks). This would probably be at least a year or two out for me, and I'd vastly prefer to have a job lined up before I go. I'd definitely want to move to a city, preferably a larger one (Paris, Lyon, Marseille), but would be willing to go wherever a job could take me. I currently work doing IT for a small/medium financial institution. I'll definitely be taking at least one trip out there before I go (I want to get out there this year). I'm a single dude, no pets, I don't own my home, and have no furniture I'd want to hang on to; I could probably fit everything I'd want to keep in a couple of large duffel bags and ship my computer. So, I have several questions to any Goons who've done anything like this: *What are the major downsides? I'm happy for people to try to talk me out of it, I'm not married to the idea yet, just something I'm thinking about. *What's the best way to find a job over there? I live in Seattle now, if that matters. *Any reason I should focus on one city over another? I really like cities, rural areas are not for me. *Is there a better way than Duo Lingo for me to improve my French? *What are some good French-language news sources for me to start reading? I read a ton of news; I'd like a couple of sources, preferably nothing written so that I have to look up every other word. I'm probably left/center-left on the French spectrum, so I'd definitely like one source from there, and then at least one source that's center/center-right. Is Le Monde my best bet to start? *What haven't I thought about that I probably should?
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May 20, 2018 06:51
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How are you going to get residency?
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May 20, 2018 13:13
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Mr Enderby posted:How are you going to get residency?
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May 20, 2018 16:28
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What skills do you bring to the table that a French employer would need, and cannot find locally? As someone who moved to Germany for several years with a job, it's exceedingly more difficult to do this than you think unless you have some very specialized skillset.
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May 20, 2018 17:12
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There’s always the foreign legion, brother goon.
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May 20, 2018 18:05
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Thanatosian posted:This would probably be at least a year or two out for me, and I'd vastly prefer to have a job lined up before I go. I'd definitely want to move to a city, preferably a larger one (Paris, Lyon, Marseille), but would be willing to go wherever a job could take me Lmao you actually think you'll get in without already having a job. I'm gonna guess from how stupid your op is you don't have an advanced skillset in an in demand field. For how much people poo poo on US immigration, European immigration is a million times worse if you don't have very advanced skills or a lot of money.
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May 20, 2018 18:20
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Also I hope you like automatic weapons because you'll see more assault rifles in one week in France than your entire life in the US.
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May 20, 2018 18:23
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Thanatosian posted:*What haven't I thought about that I probably should? Look into how tax works there and what you'll need to do. Also the nationalist right wing is absolutely still on the rise and I wouldn't expect it to die away. If it bothers you in the US, it will bother you in France (although you may feel that as an outsider you won't take it as personally I guess). People I know from the UK with left-leaning views who have moved to France find the right wing stream in politics there extremely unpleasant. Your idea is pretty silly as others have said since you really need more than a vague "find a job in France" plan unless you have an in-demand skillset, but if you want to do this seriously then find a company in the US that will send you to France somehow. So for example, perhaps a French financial firm with a major office in the US. Work there for a year or two, then see if they will let you apply for vacancies in France perhaps. If you don't have good French, do you really expect to find employment beyond "terrible summer job that a backpacking student might do"?
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May 20, 2018 18:39
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Danger - Octopus! posted:Look into how tax works there and what you'll need to do. When I first moved to Germany I was a bit idealistic about it being some enlightened society unburdened by all the problems of the US. Then I realized that some stuff is the same everywhere you go, you just don't hear about it as much. Ask me about getting profiled for visa checks any time the border cops got on my train because I look Turkish.
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May 20, 2018 18:45
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Yeah I'm Canadian, speak advanced French (bilingual school) and graduated from a French University for a masters degree (HEC Paris). I abandoned the idea of staying in France pretty quickly while I studied there. It's hard as hell to find a job and not very welcoming to foreigners imo.
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May 21, 2018 12:25
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You're going to need to become fluent in corporate/business French and that's before you even try to apply for anything.
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May 21, 2018 13:14
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Okay, so the big lesson I'm taking from everyone's advice is that it will be much harder than I'm thinking it will be, and that the biggest obstacle would be finding a job. I do have some people I know at American companies with offices in France (and at least one who works for a French company with an office here), so if I start hunting, I'll probably start there, since that seems like my best bet. Thank you all for the help.
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May 21, 2018 20:02
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I know several people that have done it. The most reliable track in is to have multiple advanced degrees (or comparably demanding skillsets.) If a company wants to hire someone to do X, they'll have a hard time getting permission to import a foreigner to do it because there are probably loads of French people who can do X, but if they need someone who can do X and Y that's a much narrower talent pool and they'll usually get the go ahead to hire someone in.
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May 21, 2018 22:16
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France is an interesting country and you really need to visit for an extended period to really understand the culture and vibe especially in the rural areas. Seems a strange choice to me for a left leaning person moving for political reasons.
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May 22, 2018 03:33
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Brinner posted:France is an interesting country and you really need to visit for an extended period to really understand the culture and vibe especially in the rural areas. Seems a strange choice to me for a left leaning person moving for political reasons. I mean, there aren't a lot of places that you can go if you're left-leaning in the world right now, but it's really not purely a left-right thing; it also has to do with economics, and some factors that are uniquely American. I think Europe is positioned to be the next superpower, I'm looking for a country where I speak the language, and I want a country with mild weather. My options are France, Belgium, or the UK. The UK is worse politically than France, and Belgium is worse economically and has weird nationalist/separatist stuff going on. I'm definitely not thinking France is some sort of progressive utopia, or hyper-socialist. I see it as an improvement, and someplace where I've at least got a start on understanding the culture and language.
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May 22, 2018 04:11
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Thanatosian posted:I think Europe is positioned to be the next superpower. Boy, you are in for a world of hurt.
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May 22, 2018 06:24
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If you’re not an EU citizen it’s going to be really hard to move there. Basically they have to prove that no EU citizens can do your job in order to give the job to a foreigner. If you don’t have a PhD or an absolutely amazing CV this is a major challenge. Besides getting a job in the US with offices in France and asking to transfer, your best other bets are to enroll in a French university, or marry a Frenchwoman. Moving for political reasons is pretty nutty though. Whether or not a country is a superpower isn’t going to have that much impact on your day to day personal life. Like, Switzerland is not exactly a superpower but it has way better standard of living than the US. Also why don’t you just move to Seattle or Portland? I doubt you could find anywhere in Europe as left wing as those two cities, even including like Stockholm and Copenhagen. You should go visit for a few weeks before seriously considering moving. Moving internationally as an adult blows as it is hard to meet people if you have no social network even if your French is conversationally fluent.
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May 22, 2018 13:34
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Thanatosian posted:I mean, there aren't a lot of places that you can go if you're left-leaning in the world right now, but it's really not purely a left-right thing; it also has to do with economics, and some factors that are uniquely American. I think Europe is positioned to be the next superpower, I'm looking for a country where I speak the language, and I want a country with mild weather. My options are France, Belgium, or the UK. The UK is worse politically than France, and Belgium is worse economically and has weird nationalist/separatist stuff going on. I mean, you might want to check out the relative position of the French and British socialist parties at the moment. And lol if you think Europe is a country let alone a future superpower (except in the realm of international trade, where it already is one I guess, but I'm not sure what that has to do with your wanting to move there). Not that you're going to be moving there anyway since as has pointed out to you it's really not just a case of 'hey I want to live in this country I'll just hop on a plane'.
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May 22, 2018 14:47
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Nofeed posted:There’s always the foreign legion, brother goon. I seriously considered this option when I got out of the Marines; I didn't do it, but to this day I wonder if that was the right choice.
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May 22, 2018 15:20
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Cessna posted:I seriously considered this option when I got out of the Marines; I didn't do it, but to this day I wonder if that was the right choice. Wait, why would that have been a good idea? I mean, what would it offer which the Marines didn't?
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May 23, 2018 13:28
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Mr Enderby posted:Wait, why would that have been a good idea? I mean, what would it offer which the Marines didn't? EU Citizenship, with the possibility of living on a different continent from my ex-wife. The latter is less of a factor now, but at the time it was a real consideration.
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May 23, 2018 17:06
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Cessna posted:EU Citizenship, with the possibility of living on a different continent from my ex-wife. Ok, fair enough. I've always wondered why anyone from a country with a big military would want to join the FFL.
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May 23, 2018 17:15
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Cessna posted:I seriously considered this option when I got out of the Marines; I didn't do it, but to this day I wonder if that was the right choice. You probably made the right call! Currently serving with an ex foreign legionnaire. His stories are... interesting, to put it mildly. e: he gave me a cd of their songs though, which are pretty sweet to listen to.
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May 23, 2018 20:52
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Cessna posted:I seriously considered this option when I got out of the Marines; I didn't do it, but to this day I wonder if that was the right choice. Everyone who wants to join the Foreign Legion should first be forced to consider the following question for five minutes: Why do you think the French government goes to the trouble of keeping the Foreign Legion around? (Hint: it's not because they enjoy making foreigners wear silly hats and march really slowly.) Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 12:02 on May 24, 2018 |
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May 24, 2018 11:57
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Saladman posted:Moving for political reasons is pretty nutty though. Whether or not a country is a superpower isn’t going to have that much impact on your day to day personal life. Like, Switzerland is not exactly a superpower but it has way better standard of living than the US. Also why don’t you just move to Seattle or Portland? I doubt you could find anywhere in Europe as left wing as those two cities, even including like Stockholm and Copenhagen. He's in Seattle already, and if I had to guess, feeling the squeeze as he realizes a mid-tier IT gig doesn't pay enough in a city whose housing is being price rocked by single dudes with zero hobbies working for the IT giants.
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May 24, 2018 14:44
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From what I hear Paris is one of the most expensive European cities so get ready to pay a crap ton for rent, food and transportation.
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May 24, 2018 15:22
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Nofeed posted:Currently serving with an ex foreign legionnaire. His stories are... interesting, to put it mildly. My unit spent some time working alongside them when I was in the USMC, so I was going in with my eyes open.
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May 24, 2018 15:35
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Wizgot posted:From what I hear Paris is one of the most expensive European cities so get ready to pay a crap ton for rent, food and transportation. I mean, there are other cities than Paris, though. I for one would really enjoy a chance to live for a time in Marseilles, or Nantes, etc.
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May 24, 2018 21:41
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By pure chance I moved to Switzerland on Election Day in 2016. I wasn’t planning on leaving due to the USA turning into a dumpster fire, but its a very happy coincidence. I love living here and plan on staying here indefinitely. Here are things you need to be aware of: - USA income taxes - congratulations, the USA is one of two countries that taxes your income regardless of where it is earned. I’m here on a permanent Swiss contract and paid in Swiss Francs but I still have to file federal income taxes. The money I pay the Swiss canton is credited toward my USA tax obligation and there is a federal foreign earned income tax credit as well but that doesn’t really kick in until the second year you live abroad. Also some things that are tax deductible in the USA are considered taxable as an ex-pat. My Swiss pension is tax free in Switzerland but I have to pay Uncle Sam for this benefit. It also sucks that US taxes are much higher than Swiss taxes. Many of my USA colleagues were shocked at very large tax bills their first year. (It depends on how well you are paid though.) You will have many special forms you need to fill out to disclose foreign holdings, etc. - Getting a job - as others have stated you are going to need to show an employment contract before you can get a residency permit. Your employer will also need to help you with your worker’s permit paperwork. In other words, you are going to need to find the job while you are in the USA. French employers are going to require evidence of at least B1 level of French fluency. You are much better off trying to get a job with a multinational corporation in the USA and requesting an international assignment at some point. Unfortunately that may mean you will be paid in USA dollars and stuck with dealing with currency value changes. At least the employer will be on the hook to help you with relocation and residency permits. They can also help you return to the States with a job when your assignment ends. -More job and money fun - landing an IT job in France is not going to be easy unless you have hard to obtain knowledge or skills. Most run of the mill IT jobs are moving closer to Eastern Europe. Prague and Budapest are becoming technology hubs. Prague is awesome! You can function very well with just English. Prices are very cheap by USA and EU considerations. The problem is that you will be earning 1/3 of what you could earn in the USA. You will be living large in the Czech Republic but you may never be able to go back to the USA because you haven’t earned enough to save for retirement... then again I hear most young people don’t save for retirement anyway in the USA. - Culture - please be ready to blend in and respect the new community you are joining. Some of my fellow expats don’t try to fit in at all. They live their American lifestyle, expect everyone to understand their English, make comments about “how the locals” behave, etc. For example, I live in Basel which arguably has the best public transportation in the world. You never wait more than 7 minutes for a tram or bus and there are a million ways to get where you want to go. Some Americans think that public transport is beneath them and insist on driving a car. They then complain about finding parking (plus the cost of a apartment parking space in the city is $200 a month), city parking costs, fines for everything (Schweizer Polizei enforce all the rules!), etc. This annoys the Swiss because they are very proud of their public transport and even the filthy rich use it. Personally I love learning about new cultures and like adopting to local customs. The locals like it and comment about my Swiss-ness. -Caveats - My new home, Basel, is 30% expats and therefore much more tolerant of foreigners than other parts of the EU. Previously I lived in Germany for a while during the George W Bush presidency. Complete strangers would hear my English and come running over to tell me how Bush was a moron ruining the world. I also sometimes got the cold shoulder in small German villages, then again I also met fantastic people and life long friends in Germany. There are other things I could talk about like how it affects your family. My wife and son have different opinions about how much they like it here. I won’t bore you with international school standards...
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May 25, 2018 05:21
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Thanatosian posted:I currently work doing IT for a small/medium financial institution. No one will want you. The western world is absolutely choked with IT guys, so I'm sure France has more than its share of ones that already live there, won't potentially ask for sponsorship help and won't get deported. Concentrate on becoming a billionaire so that you can move wherever you want\escape to space when the global economy collapses. I mean, I'm being glib for humorous effect, but the meaning is still there. What do you do specifically in IT and how is it unique in any way?
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May 25, 2018 22:11
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mysterious frankie posted:No one will want you. The western world is absolutely choked with IT guys, so I'm sure France has more than its share of ones that already live there, won't potentially ask for sponsorship help and won't get deported. Concentrate on becoming a billionaire so that you can move wherever you want\escape to space when the global economy collapses. I have some relatively niche skills working with automation engines , but nothing I would describe as "unique." Like I said, if I decide to go through with this, I'll probably have to look at doing it through an American multinational, rather than a French company. I recognize it's going to be a lot more difficult than I had estimated, if possible at all.
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May 25, 2018 22:25
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Thanatosian posted:I have some relatively niche skills working with automation engines , but nothing I would describe as "unique." Maybe try to get accreditation as a systems engineer focusing on some kind of tech where only X amount of people in the world specialize. I can't think o anything off the top of my head, but I know there are obscure systems that only random graybeards know how to work on, and they can more or less go where there want because there's always company that needs them to figure their poo poo out. Even so, goooooood luck. You'll have better results marrying into the country.
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May 25, 2018 22:46
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Why focus just on France when you have the entire EU to go to? But regardless, immigration for non-EU citizens is very similar to the laws the US has, so if your skillset is "English is first language" or other non-unique things, you're SOL. Other countries that I'd recommend to give a chance are the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Germany, Czechia, Slovakia and Northern Italy.
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May 26, 2018 17:03
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Dance Officer posted:Why focus just on France when you have the entire EU to go to? But regardless, immigration for non-EU citizens is very similar to the laws the US has, so if your skillset is "English is first language" or other non-unique things, you're SOL. I’m seconding Czechia and Prague in particular. It’s a modern city with many expats.
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May 26, 2018 17:34
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I'm going to be blunt here: if you think moving to France is going to get you away from the big, mean conservatives in America they exist in the EU. They just lost this round but they will be back. The fact National Front and Le Pen got as far as they did nationally in 2017 was something unthinkable five years ago. I'm not trying to be a dick here but your entire reasoning for uprooting and moving across the world because you don't like Trump is a very flawed one. If I am sounding like a dick I'll say that moving to the EU is no different from applying for a job in a way. You mention you are in IT and I can tell you there is a glut of it right now and you might have to study/advance further for France to take you in. I do wish you luck and all that but I really do hope you understand how massive moving to another country can be. I do recommend travelling there with the intention to study the vibe of France both the cities and rural areas and for God's sake make sure to speak a lot of French while you are there because the language is critical. Justin Godscock fucked around with this message at 19:46 on May 28, 2018 |
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May 28, 2018 19:44
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in addition to all of the other very cogent arguments: your french is far too lovely to survive in France
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Jun 3, 2018 12:54
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Crayvex posted:I’m seconding Czechia and Prague in particular. It’s a modern city with many expats. Ill third Prague. My father moved from the UK to prague 5 years ago, I go out there for a week or two every year. Huge expat community, i notice alot more American accents than British ones but that could just be anecdotal from the bars/restaurants ive visited. I also see more frequently these days that there are jobs in Prague coming up on UK IT job sites that will basically pay for your relocation and first 1-3 months rent in a place to get you moved over and on your feet in an effort to outsource IT jobs to save on labour costs as the cost of living is so low there. My dad also speaks very little Czech and hasnt really bothered to learn as he gets by fine with English.
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Jun 3, 2018 14:47
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Also, op, did you consider Africa? I'm told every now and again that there's healthy expat communities in several countries there, like Kenya Edit: Angola out, Kenya in. Dance Officer fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Jun 4, 2018 12:25
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France has 9%+ unemployment still and is well known for looking down on people with not quite perfect French. The chances of them wanting to import a not fluent in French mediocre IT guy from America are not good. Best look towards back doors into the EU. Several countries give citizenship based on ancestry or if you have 200k or so you can effectively buy citizenship in Latvia (and then move to France after 5 years) and there are other routes.
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Jun 5, 2018 18:40
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Blegum has been having a shortage of ict guys for many years, they're on the list of bottlenecked professions. The government makes it easier to hire non-EU folk for these jobs and they're going to make it even easier. You will earn a lot less than you would in the US though. Also, Blegum is poo poo. Also, we're richer than France. Don't move here if you're going to speak French though.
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