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I just checked, and his cult has Fireblade and Sunspear in Cults of Glorantha (Mongoose edition)
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Oct 9, 2023 15:01
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I don't think there even was a Chaosium RQ edition since Elmal was a thing until he reconned it back in RQ:G. It's still stupid because he was part of the heroquest supliments where Elmal totally had fire.
Gorelab fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 17:49
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Oh hey, Cults Of RuneQuest 4: Mythology just released, in PDF (available immediately) and hardcover (shipping soon) form. Like the Prosopaedia, it's stat-less and universal. Here's the ToC: 
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Oct 9, 2023 19:55
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In retrospect I think the thing about Elmal/Yelmalio is that it lands right smack of the issues I've always had with Glorantha, where it wants everybody to get to be Right but also wants gods to objectively exist and not just be the product of Ascension-style consensual reality. It's never really resolved this inconsistency, so when you ask a question like "were the God-Learners right?" the best answer you can get is "he's right, but he shouldn't have said it."
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Oct 9, 2023 21:52
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The God-Learners were right and everyone else was just jealous of their speedrunning prowess.
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Oct 9, 2023 23:56
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Honestly i'm pretty sure the implication is supposed to be "the god learners were like 80% right, if they weren't they would've have been able to get the results they did, but HO BOY were they not willing to accept that 20%, and also they were huge assholes about it."
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Oct 10, 2023 00:02
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I mean, the people who suddenly lost their staple crops and local goddesses (who, we must remember, straight up made the crops grow) because the God Learners hosed around might not be willing to accept it either.
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Oct 10, 2023 07:03
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Tias posted:I mean, the people who suddenly lost their staple crops and local goddesses (who, we must remember, straight up made the crops grow) because the God Learners hosed around might not be willing to accept it either. Note that in the Earth Cults book, the Grain Godesses _are_ distinct cults in RQ rules terms, each having their own Rune Pool. Which kind of begs the question of how the God Learners were able to pull off the Goddess Switch, why they thought it would work, and why the it wasn’t immediately obvious that it hadn’t.
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Oct 10, 2023 10:50
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radmonger posted:Note that in the Earth Cults book, the Grain Godesses _are_ distinct cults in RQ rules terms, each having their own Rune Pool. It was immediately obvious to none god learners, but who needs to listen to the little people when you have this much power and oh no my bones are melting.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:52
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reignonyourparade posted:Honestly i'm pretty sure the implication is supposed to be "the god learners were like 80% right, if they weren't they would've have been able to get the results they did, but HO BOY were they not willing to accept that 20%, and also they were huge assholes about it." Well, from one perspective, they're passive meta-gamers who figure out loopholes in the system and try to take advantage of them. From another perspective they're applying "scientific" experimentation to poke at a cosmos held together by hard wishing and spiderwebs. The God Swap was an attempt to test a claim and I bet if you talked to the architects afterward they'd insist that the general theory was correct and that they a) may have selected the wrong experimental subjects but b) probably could have made things work by just putting more power into the procedure, because fundamentally grain is grain is grain. (They are "bad" scientists, but anyone who took basic physics in college knows that you're making lots of unrealistic assumptions. Cows that are cubes is actually a more sophisticated level of simplification.) Rand Brittain posted:In retrospect I think the thing about Elmal/Yelmalio is that it lands right smack of the issues I've always had with Glorantha, where it wants everybody to get to be Right but also wants gods to objectively exist and not just be the product of Ascension-style consensual reality. It's never really resolved this inconsistency, so when you ask a question like "were the God-Learners right?" the best answer you can get is "he's right, but he shouldn't have said it." Is it possible that you're wrong when you see an inconsistency there? Let's quickly look at a few cases and see how "reality" can be a mix of objectivity and perspective at the same time and how trying to resolve the question isn't always the wisest move: 1. Our reality. Let's take the statement, "Stephen Hawking is alive." We'd first have to deal with the labeling issue: more than one human being can be named Stephen Hawking. But let's assume we pick the famous physicist. What can we objectively determine? If there's a soul or some other portion of our being that can survive after the death of the body, it might also exist prior to the body. If no such thing exists, then we can rule out the eons prior to Hawking's documented birth, as well as all time subsequent to his death (setting aside the possibility of some reconstruction or resurrection in future). If it does, can we label that thing "Stephen Hawking" accurately, or does that label depend upon a physical body and a specific context within time and space? Then we have edge cases. On the one hand, is Stephen Hawking alive at the moment of conception, and do we trace that moment to sperm and egg, or implantation in the uterine lining? Or is it fetal development or viability? We might guess at a month for "being alive" but we can't drill down to the second. And what about death? Is he dead at the moment listed in his death certificate? Some current research suggests brain activity can continue for far longer than first thought, so we have a period between 1 minute and 1 hour when Hawking might not be brain dead. And the cells in the body don't all instantly die; for that matter, if bacteria in the gut live another few days after the body supporting them dies, is that enough to say "Hawking is alive" or is the brain the only part we care about? That's all setting aside the simulationist model where Stephen Hawking might have been an AI in a virtual world the whole time, and either was never alive, or was "instanced" and could reappear at the push of a button. 2. Glorantha. Let's consider Uleria. Goddess of Love, owner of the Fertility rune, survivor of the Celestial Court. Is Uleria alive? Even Jeff Richard in the Prosopaedia hedges his bets here: Prosopaedia posted:Uleria, once Goddess of Life, may be the only deity of the Celestial Court to have survived the Great Darkness, though some believe that the being worshiped in her name is only a small portion of the whole of Uleria, or is another goddess with identical powers, attributes, and appearance. Let's pause for a moment to consider how we'd treat someone in the real world asserting that Stephen Hawking vanished in 1991 and was replaced by another human being with identical memories, mental capacities, and appearance. But this is objectively a possibility in Glorantha, especially given how the runes work. But it's more complex than that. From the perspective of someone in Time, does Uleria, outside of Time, qualify as "alive"? If it is possible for beings in Time to change Uleria, her aliveness may be conditional, especially as we do know it's possible to bring people (and deities) back to life. And what if Uleria never really existed, but was always an aspect or mask for Glorantha herself? Is Glorantha alive? If Glorantha is alive but taking on the aspect of Arachne Solara, is Uleria alive because Arachne Solara is? Is Uleria only alive when Glorantha expresses her aspect and not alive when she doesn't? Does getting spells or power through ritual worship of Uleria prove that Uleria is alive? Does being able to Heroquest and meet her, especially factoring in that you might meet a Ulerian heroquester and not the goddess herself, and that you can Heroquest to meet dead beings at a point when they weren't yet dead because Time wasn't a thing yet. What if the Godlearners found a place on the Godplane where Uleria is dead, which allows them to use magics that wouldn't work if she were alive? 3. Glorantha. Elmal and Yelmalio. If we go by the Prosopaedia, Elmal became Orlanth's loyal steward and his regent while Orlanth was away, but was later revealed to be another name for Yelmalio. The Yelmalio entry tries to square the circle by saying Yelmalio "even aided Orlanth" in the Great Darkness. Being Orlanth's steward (and presumably swearing an oath to him) is very different from lending him a hand while being head of Yelm's pantheon while he's away, which is different again from being a Son or a Part of Yelm (Antirius, say). If we now "know" that Elmal was Yelmalio all along, is Antirius still not Yelmalio? Not known to be Yelmalio yet? Is that ambiguous--if you go to the Hill of Gold, can you run into Elmal, Yelmalio, and Antirius as separate beings? Can you make them encounter each other? Is that answer determined by what you already expect, and if not, what does determine it? Is there an edge condition, a point where you can meet Elmal on the Hill of Gold and a second point where you can't because it turns out he was always Yelmalio? If you could never meet him there, how did the Elmal cult ever exist? Insisting that you've somehow clarified or solved a problem by stating that Elmal was always Yelmalio under another name doesn't make anything clearer or easier, it complicates matters! And what's worse, if Yelmalio is Lightfore, and Lightfore wandered during the Great Darkness, how can Orlanth have Yelmalio/Lightfore in the guise of Elmal guarding his stead while he's away? That means staying in one spot! Was Orlanth's stead the only thing left by that point? Was Lightfore wandering and staying in one place simultaneously? Personally, I think it's far easier to say something else: The Orlanthi, culturally, had a dislike of the Sky pantheon, so Elmal, as a solar figure who defected into the air pantheon, provided a way to propitiate and try to survive during the Darkness. After the Darkness, it's a cult associated with Orlanth and subordinate to him, and thus more culturally acceptable than allowing a bunch of Dara Happans to come in and build a bunch of temples to Yelm, who is definitely the Bad Emperor even if an accommodation has been reached. But the political and social forces sustaining the Elmal cult would be under constant pressure, because while Elmal was in a position of delegated authority in Orlanth's absence, Orlanth's kings aren't necessarily putting Elmal worshipers as regents when they have to Heroquest or step away. Enter the Yelmalians, who notice that there's a lot of overlap between Elmal and Yelmalio and suggest to the locals that they're actually worshiping Yelmalio, not Elmal. And there are advantages to that, as Yelmalio isn't a subordinate to Orlanth, and offers a differing kind of power and efficacy. Meanwhile, the Sun Temple can show the Orlanthi leaders that they're useful and effective; with the Elmal cult diminished, it isn't in a good position to compete. A few shrines to Elmal might hang on out of tradition, family associations, or other such local factors; the change may also mean that certain Orlanthi rituals that once involved an Elmali now require a Yelmalian, even though their place in the broader cult structure is very different. Can we conclude that something involving an objective truth has occurred, and Elmal is "dead" or proven never to have existed except as a mask of Yelmalio? What about Yanafal Tarnils being proven to be Humakt? Danfive Xaron proven to be Rebellious Terminus proven to be Orlanth? Is Orlanth dead if the Lunars prove him to be Danfive Xaron, and if so, what does that mean? Glorantha has a lot more edge cases, but the indeterminacy is a crucial part of how people need to relate to the world, just as it is in our world. You can't address questions about abortion, prenatal care, and human rights and responsibilities without acknowledging the edge cases for early life (and what stage an embryo/fetus qualifies as human), and claiming that these questions can't be resolved in the absence of objective proof about when life begins is problematic. (Whether such proof is even possible is problematic.) There is a clear basis upon which one can legislate despite--arguably because of--the indeterminacy. To take a slightly less controversial issue--the death penalty--we know that people later proven to be innocent of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death were unjustly or wrongfully sentenced to death. Without knowing whether a given convict is objectively innocent or guilty, we can nevertheless discuss and weigh issues related to the death penalty. If the unjust execution of a single person is unacceptable, then you must oppose the death sentence in all cases, because while a trial and appeals process attempts to establish the objective truth, it does not always do so and there is no remedy should the state execute an innocent person. But if you think certain people represent such an extreme danger to other people's lives that permitting them to live, even in captivity, is too great a risk, then there might be an error threshold you're willing to accept in exchange for the good of preventing someone from killing again. If the indeterminacy did not exist, the controversy wouldn't either: we would always objectively know whether the punishment is just and administered to the right person. But we can't always know the latter, and there's a related argument to be had about whether the state killing someone is ever just--life in solitary confinement is almost certainly a crueler punishment. I love the setting because it refuses to allow for easy resolutions of indeterminacies that should be as central to the setting as real world indeterminacies are to the real world. If you hate that for a game setting, then there's no possible way for both of us to be happy. Personally, I'd rather the setting materials give you the option of resolving indeterminate aspects of the world however you want, than resolving them and forcing me to preserve the indeterminacy in the face of the official published materials my players may be purchasing. But I can see why you wouldn't want to make those resolutions blindly or need to earn a degree in philosophy or comparative religion to feel qualified in doing so.
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Oct 10, 2023 19:58
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Godlearners are bad anthropologists. They got it right in that extant cultures in Glorantha have common roots in ancestral myths because they expanded from one population as they became others. What they failed to do is take into account that the people they were loving with were a living culture, so their beliefs and changed myths were also true. Their victims weren't Jrusteli/Godlearners so they didn't matter and were wrong by default. The belief was since all these current groups share a common ancestral myth, that's the truth. Not that the truth is what is being lived by the people who worship those gods.
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Oct 11, 2023 14:38
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Tasoth posted:Godlearners are bad anthropologists. They got it right in that extant cultures in Glorantha have common roots in ancestral myths because they expanded from one population as they became others. What they failed to do is take into account that the people they were loving with were a living culture, so their beliefs and changed myths were also true. Their victims weren't Jrusteli/Godlearners so they didn't matter and were wrong by default. Technically they're not just bad, they're also imperialist. And that can look benevolent: "hey, we noticed your Sun God is the same as this god named Yelm that people somewhere else worship, and we studied that cult and here's a bunch of additional information on Yelm you can use to do all sorts of great new rituals" looks like a free gift. But on one level, it's pushing the Godlearner Monomyth (and their own position of mastery over it), and on another level, it's cultural imperialism even though the monoculture being spread appears, on the surface, to be more diverse than the Godlearner's own culture. The hell of it is that an individual Godlearner can be genuinely well-intentioned, because almost all of them think the point of the ritual is what you get out of performing it, and not the ritual in and of itself. So they're telling people about more efficient ways to gather power or accomplish goals, while casually devaluing anything Godlearner culture doesn't value. That's also how you end up asserting that any grain goddess can get the job done, because Godlearners see deities as either Rune expressions or power sources: they're like natural resources are to an exploiter culture. If you want to strip-mine myth, you probably aren't being very attentive to the actual conditions on the ground because you don't care about them. It's interesting how the Second Age empires that most threatened to destroy the world both represent routes through which people living in Glorantha could deny their connection to it/her and hold themselves aloof. EWF involved non-dragons trying to be dragons, essentially jumping from one classification of created being to another, while the Godlearners held themselves and their own culture aloof from the world. EWF says they aren't this one thing, they're part of this other, parallel system and thus apart from the thing they appear to be; the Godlearners claim to exist in a position of separate objectivity within which they themselves are immune from the kinds of scrutiny and exploitation they unload upon everything else.
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Oct 11, 2023 18:07
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In short, in Glorantha, mythology contains a lot more cosmic truth than real-world mythology typically does. The God Learners were, with notable exceptions, right about that side of things. What they were less good with was the personal or social meaning of those stories. Orlanth being married to Ernalda is some form of cosmic truth. That you, as an Orlanthi clansman, love and respect your wife, listen to her advice, and make your own decision is a personal truth. And one that has to be lived, not merely stated. The myths connect the two, magic is just the incentive for taking the lesson seriously.. Presumably when the God Learners did the switch, it was something like a Heroquest to the God Time to swap two of Ernalda’s daughters in the cradle. This worked, in the sense that people initiated after the change could learn and cast most of the same magic as those before it. The problem is, the different personalities of the two sisters were not a good match for the social role of their worshippers within society. Maybe they were energetic and diligent when the crops (and husbands) they were now responsible for needed them to be lazy and clever. So a generation of worshippers learnt the wrong personal and moral lessons from their cults, and in the long run society suffered for it.
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Oct 11, 2023 21:50
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In real life, it's pretty obvious that Zeus and Jupiter are more or less the same god, and it's interesting studying that overlap. It's also fairly obvious that those gods are fictional, and that any academic attempts to declare them exactly the same paves over the lived reality of religion by taking a fictional premise too seriously. In Glorantha, by contrast, the gods are very real, with very direct, easy to observe effects on the world. You'd expect them, to be discreet entities, but, no, you can still do religious syncretism on them! That's a fascinating phenomenon, and the God Learners are very relatable for wanting to explore that and figure out the underlying principles. But God Learners are a parody of colonial anthropology, so it's poetic that they overreach, get too wrapped up in their theorycrafting, and get smacked down by both the people they exploited and very literal manifestations of the principles that they've misunderstood.
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Oct 11, 2023 22:23
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Haystack posted:In real life, it's pretty obvious that Zeus and Jupiter are more or less the same god, and it's interesting studying that overlap. It's also fairly obvious that those gods are fictional, and that any academic attempts to declare them exactly the same paves over the lived reality of religion by taking a fictional premise too seriously. In Glorantha, by contrast, the gods are very real, with very direct, easy to observe effects on the world. You'd expect them, to be discreet entities, but, no, you can still do religious syncretism on them! That's a fascinating phenomenon, and the God Learners are very relatable for wanting to explore that and figure out the underlying principles. But God Learners are a parody of colonial anthropology, so it's poetic that they overreach, get too wrapped up in their theorycrafting, and get smacked down by both the people they exploited and very literal manifestations of the principles that they've misunderstood. Well in large part that's because the Romans syncretised the Greek panetheon over their own for their own reasons of being massive weeaboos about Greece. The equivalent attempts to syncretise them over the Egyptian pantheon(s) was shakier, and the Roman attempts to to do the same with their new composites over further conquered peoples is probably what the God Learners are riffing on, beyond poo poo Anglo Victorian era anthropology.
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Oct 11, 2023 23:30
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Someone once described the God Learners as doing theological dynamite fishing and I think that is a good description.
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Oct 12, 2023 10:58
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Narsham posted:if you go to the Hill of Gold, can you run into Elmal, Yelmalio, and Antirius as separate beings? Can you make them encounter each other? Is that answer determined by what you already expect, and if not, what does determine it? Is there an edge condition, a point where you can meet Elmal on the Hill of Gold and a second point where you can't because it turns out he was always Yelmalio? If you could never meet him there, how did the Elmal cult ever exist? The answer to all those questions is: whatever the game master and players decide on. You can, and should, come up with any number of answers to address those issues so pick what's fun.
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Oct 13, 2023 06:32
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Haven't had time to go through Mythology yet, but it appears the take is that, upon entering a gods mythological area in the god-time, there are various "paths" or "exits" (compare to heroquest stations in earlier editions I guess) that take you to various points in god-time, some of which the god is alive and some is dead if it died in history. This seems like it would also make it possible to encounter various incarnations or gods at the time where they were relevant to your culture, but that's just me guessing.
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Oct 13, 2023 06:44
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Nov 16, 2023 01:33
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https://cohost.org/MorsRattus/tagged/the%20secret%20history%20of%20the%20horse%20sun I've decided to get to work on a HQG/Questworlds project to rewrite Pent to not be Kind Of Racist Mongolia, retconning it so that storm god worship is around from far earlier (because the Pentan steppes is at a literal crossroads between a ton of cultures, and so it should incorporate Solar, Storm and Chen Durel stuff) and adding a few more horse peoples into the mix that became the Pentans. So far I've been writing up the gods, with the intent to make Sheng like 30% less evil and for the default time of game to be set during his rise, with chances for the players to shift how he develops to be even less evil. (Or more evil, I suppose, I can't stop you from deciding to go all in on the murderous and vengeful parts of the Conquest Buddha.)
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Nov 16, 2023 01:50
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Only the Perfect Emperor can pull off such a strut.
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Nov 16, 2023 04:13
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Mors Rattus posted:https://cohost.org/MorsRattus/tagged/the%20secret%20history%20of%20the%20horse%20sun https://cohost.org/MorsRattus/post/3525321-the-gods-of-pent-th Now updated with East Sting Wind! In official canon, he’s just Gagarth, but it’s unclear to me how he would occupy a position roughly equal to that of Orlanth, Urox or Humakt, the other members of the main Four Winds. He’s too antisocial, too much a problem. Therefore, I decided Pent has conflated him with Shargash, whose role as Yelm’s demonic executioner and warlord doesn’t really fit into the tribal khanate social order. Thus he is instead the split god, both bandit lord and repentant but wild ex-con, who represents the taming of violence and the last chance for people to redeem themselves. He marks the boundary of what is socially acceptable by occupying both sides.
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Nov 20, 2023 19:19
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Mors Rattus posted:https://cohost.org/MorsRattus/tagged/the%20secret%20history%20of%20the%20horse%20sun https://cohost.org/MorsRattus/post/3611328-the-gods-of-pent-th Now finished writing up Lozarl, the Labor rear end, who is donkey Lodril. His priests, the rear end Men, are a very powerful and important group because they run most of the mines that fuel Pent’s booming weapon industry, one of the key reasons that the Lunars and Dara Happans have always had trouble with the horse nomads.
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Dec 6, 2023 14:10
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Mors Rattus posted:His priests, the rear end Men I want to be mad about this name, but it's also something that I would not be at all surprised to see in an official Glorantha product. But did you have to call their holy site the Hellcrack? Lozarl, the Lord of Below, the Low Fire, the Labor rear end posted:By Pentan law, the ranking rear end Man in a settled village or monastery is considered to be its khan for any purposes that would require it. An enlightened society 
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Dec 6, 2023 20:46
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Oh, I didn’t name the Hellcrack. That’s canonical.
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Dec 6, 2023 22:01
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Mors Rattus posted:Oh, I didn’t name the Hellcrack. That’s canonical. Oh my god. I am slain.
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Dec 6, 2023 22:22
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White Coke posted:The answer to all those questions is: whatever the game master and players decide on. You can, and should, come up with any number of answers to address those issues so pick what's fun. The internally flexible nature of Gloranthan theology is what really makes it work imo; Godtime actively supports mutually contradictory myths for a reason.
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Dec 7, 2023 16:37
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https://cohost.org/MorsRattus/post/3777493-the-gods-of-pent-th This one took me a while because I kind of fell into a hole about blacksmithing and metaphor. Tepekos (and his horse soul, Gustbran), the master of transformation, metal and self sacrifice.
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Jan 2, 2024 19:02
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Smithing in many early societies was very mystical, as a profession. Also associated with being maimed in various ways (see: hephastus).
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Jan 13, 2024 02:35
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https://cohost.org/MorsRattus/post/4066860-the-gods-of-pent-th Pentan Issaries is honestly pretty orthodox, but not entirely.
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Jan 16, 2024 16:11
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Been slowly getting into RQG for the first time after being vaguely aware of the setting via king of dragon pass. This might be the most underserved setting I can think of, like I am floored that there isnt like more talk about Glorantha, i'm enjoying scratching the surface of the main book quite alot. How hasnt there been more games or media in general set here!
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Feb 1, 2024 12:12
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Xenolalia posted:Been slowly getting into RQG for the first time after being vaguely aware of the setting via king of dragon pass. This might be the most underserved setting I can think of, like I am floored that there isnt like more talk about Glorantha, i'm enjoying scratching the surface of the main book quite alot. How hasnt there been more games or media in general set here! Six Ages is another 2 great games in the kodp vein by the same people. And yeah, it has been underserved.
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Feb 1, 2024 17:05
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Morrowind is basically a Glorantha game
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Feb 1, 2024 17:25
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Asterite34 posted:Morrowind is basically a Glorantha game So is Dark Souls.
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Feb 1, 2024 18:22
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Give Miyazaki the Glorantha IP rights.
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Feb 1, 2024 18:25
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Xenolalia posted:Been slowly getting into RQG for the first time after being vaguely aware of the setting via king of dragon pass. This might be the most underserved setting I can think of, like I am floored that there isnt like more talk about Glorantha, i'm enjoying scratching the surface of the main book quite alot. How hasnt there been more games or media in general set here!
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Feb 1, 2024 18:29
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I mean part of the issue is that it's very very dense and another is that the rules around the games are not exactly conducive to making a fast paced game. Alongside that the sheer size and sheer "placeness" of Glorantha means it's hard to run some games in it. That and, as usual, there is a bit too much of a focus on Dragon Pass and the Orlanthi, as much as I love them.
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Feb 1, 2024 18:57
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MonsieurChoc posted:So is Dark Souls. This was a big takeaway so far for me, immediately just talking about everlasting dragons and time emerging from stasis. It's very much less aesthetically evident in dark souls though, I find the Gloranthan pseudo-fertile crescent aspects to be more immediately cool than the kind of knights wearing plate visuals of ds.
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Feb 1, 2024 22:28
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Xenolalia posted:This was a big takeaway so far for me, immediately just talking about everlasting dragons and time emerging from stasis. It's very much less aesthetically evident in dark souls though, I find the Gloranthan pseudo-fertile crescent aspects to be more immediately cool than the kind of knights wearing plate visuals of ds. Well, that's because Glorantha is just one of of a bunch of inspirations along with Berserk and Fighting Fantasy etc. But it is one of them, Miyazaki said he keeps his copy of the old Dragon Pass boardgame in his office.
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Feb 1, 2024 22:29
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I'd love to see someone take Nomad Gods (the praxian boardgame) and turn it into a nice steam release, or something like that.
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Feb 1, 2024 22:35
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