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Rochallor posted:ones directly connected to Whedon's on-set harassment, like Cordelia's character assassination in Season 4 of Angel. I'm familiar with his behaviour, but as far as I remember -- based on the recording with Tim Minear in this thread, and from some fairly obvious foreshadowing towards the end of the season -- the character's possession and subsequent villain turn had been planned out since season three. So the character change predates Whedon melting down, it wasn't caused by it. Rochallor posted:I'm not sure what exactly makes the First so credible and present as a villain, but it really is. It seems like something that shouldn't work; half the time it's Sarah Michelle Gellar But Evil and the other half it's random dead characters, but it really feels like an ever-present, constantly building threat in a way no other big bad does save maybe Season 2 Angel, and there he's still a good guy most of the season. I think it's that a lot of the other season's big bads are scary but also undercut with a degree of camp--which is fine for the show Buffy is!--but largely removing that element is a good trick. I think it helps that unlike a lot of earlier villains, particularly The Master and the Trio (i.e. the deliberately basic ones) it doesn't really do that thing where it throws minions at the gang. It's not Power Rangers. It sets up some psychological insights, usually fairly truthful ones, and then lets the crew stew in them. "Spike's dangerous and you need to neutralise that threat." "Buffy will choose the mission over anyone, even her sister." "Your psychological problems prevent you from seeing yourself as equal to your peers." You can see it all over the place, not just with the central characters e.g. the wave of psychosomatic deaths in the highschool, the one potential who's talked into suicide, the way Amy conceives of Willow's curse... He has a few big tanky boys to protect himself, but ultimately most of the First's damage ends up being psychological. It tricks people into hurting their allies or themselves. Open Source Idiom fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 04:17
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Open Source Idiom posted:I think it helps that unlike a lot of earlier villains, particularly The Master and the Trio (i.e. the deliberately basic ones) it doesn't really do that thing where it throws minions at the gang. It's not Power Rangers. It sets up some psychological insights, usually fairly truthful ones, and then lets the crew stew in them. "Spike's dangerous and you need to neutralise that threat." "Buffy will choose the mission over anyone, even her sister." "Your psychological problems prevent you from seeing yourself as equal to your peers." Yeah that's a good analysis I think. It's also what makes Angelus such a compelling villain, too; he knows the gang well enough to mess with them and similarly to the First is able to manipulate them with the truth instead of with lies.
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Dec 20, 2023 04:35
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Let's face it. Even if they did reboot it that reboot would be total dogshit anyway.
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Dec 20, 2023 06:00
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banned from Starbucks posted:Let's face it. Even if they did reboot it that reboot would be total dogshit anyway. I ran a Daria/pop culture podcast for a few years, and two things really stuck out to me and completely changed how I look at the idea of a Buffy (or Daria) reboot: a) Today's teenagers still find and relate to these shows. Not in droves, obviously, but more than you'd think. We heard from them a bunch. This is because ... b) Being a teenager still sucks poo poo in a lot of the same ways as it always has, for just about everyone, ever. I think the huge potentially fatal flaw of a Buffy reboot would be that it'd try speaking more to the audience that loved the original show as it was airing — folks who haven't been teens for a long time. That's speculation, obviously, but I don't think it's hard to imagine a show that awkwardly fumbles its way through trying to tell Buffy's story in a way that appeals to a bunch of 40-year-olds.
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Dec 20, 2023 11:57
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Interesting perspective on the First in the last few posts. I always thought one of the reasons I found the last season so relatively unsatisfying aside from a couple episodes is that they big up the First massively from their appearance in Season 3 and the early part of Season 7 and then proceed to have it be pretty much entirely ineffectual for most of the season. Like sure it provokes some suicides and they get into some arguments but it never feels quite as dire as they seem to want to get across with all the buildup "from beneath you it devours" stuff until the last couple episodes when people are just evacuating Sunnydale en masse and such. It feels like it skips a couple steps in between those to me.
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Dec 20, 2023 16:05
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Open Source Idiom posted:I'm familiar with his behaviour, but as far as I remember -- based on the recording with Tim Minear in this thread, and from some fairly obvious foreshadowing towards the end of the season -- the character's possession and subsequent villain turn had been planned out since season three. True, there was the stuff with Skip making her part demon so she can then get ascended into a higher realm as a prep for WHATEVER the initial plan for her with season 4 was, but I don't think the original plan would have been the whole Jasmine coming back as a possessed-Cordelia for the purposes of seducing and having sex with Connor, who is functionally her adopted son in order to give birth to herself. And then sideline her as "in a coma" the last 5/6 episodes of S4, and all of S5 save 1 episode where she has a token appearance as a half-assed apology so she can have the last time the character appears be the ACTUAL character, not an "evil" higher being, doing something good. That being said, I've mentioned it before, but the messiness and that one REAL big ick factor of season 4 aside, I liked the IDEA of it. A higher being who has sort of lost her message/purpose, and goes full-on "The ends justify the means" to achieve world peace, as it were.
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Dec 20, 2023 16:36
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Toaster Beef posted:I think the huge potentially fatal flaw of a Buffy reboot would be that it'd try speaking more to the audience that loved the original show as it was airing — folks who haven't been teens for a long time. That's speculation, obviously, but I don't think it's hard to imagine a show that awkwardly fumbles its way through trying to tell Buffy's story in a way that appeals to a bunch of 40-year-olds. Incidentally, the comics rebooted Buffy. Whedon isn't involved aside from being credited as the creator; not sure how much money he gets out of it. The reboot puts Buffy in modern day and makes some good changes; Willow being out from the beginning is probably a given, but also they made Cordelia nice and more of the kind of person who might actually be popular with everyone. Unfortunately it kinda went downhill fast as I felt the writer was scrambling to stuff as many Buffy characters in as early as they could. That said, later on it did have one great twist (which as you predicted is really for the fans of the OG) It turned out that the entire comic takes place in a world without shrimp
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Dec 20, 2023 17:33
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DrBouvenstein posted:True, there was the stuff with Skip making her part demon so she can then get ascended into a higher realm as a prep for WHATEVER the initial plan for her with season 4 was, but I don't think the original plan would have been the whole Jasmine coming back as a possessed-Cordelia for the purposes of seducing and having sex with Connor, who is functionally her adopted son in order to give birth to herself. And then sideline her as "in a coma" the last 5/6 episodes of S4, and all of S5 save 1 episode where she has a token appearance as a half-assed apology so she can have the last time the character appears be the ACTUAL character, not an "evil" higher being, doing something good. I think the giving birth to herself and getting replaced by Jasmine bit was reworked, but Charisma's pregnancy came relatively late! Baby was born in late March, that put conception date around early July of the previous year. By the time Apocalypse, Now-ish aired, she was only about four months pregnant. Given production lead times of a few months, pregnancy timing, and the fact that Cordy/Connor was foreshadowed before Apocalypse, Now-ish, I think it's really likely that the gross relationship was the original plan. It just doesn't seem possible for Charisma to discover and announce that she's pregnant in time for them to write that in the show.
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Dec 20, 2023 17:49
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There's forshadowing for it in Benediction, back in Season Three.
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Dec 20, 2023 18:18
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I don't dislike most of S4 in theory. In fact, in theory it's got a whole bunch of great plot ideas. An actual hellbeast unleashed on earth who they just can't defeat to start things off, then an Angelus return arc featuring Faith, then Jasmine. All three of those elements are full of potential, and there are fleeting moments when that is realised. It's just the way they strung everything together, contrived a horseshit plan (even if they DID plan it, it's contrived as hell), and had the characters all sort of act like dickheads all season just makes it all kind of unpleasant to watch. Connor is the lynchpin of what is wrong the season obviously, shouldn't have been added to the cast - have Angel kick him out in ep 1 as he does and he can return sproadically. It's crazy how Vincent Kartheiser went on play to Pete Campbell who is one of my favourite characters ever, and apparently refuses to even talk about Angel. You really can't blame the actors for any of it. S6 of Buffy has some similar problems where it's got a lot of good ideas but you can just feel the show sort of sinking under its own weight, and in retrospect probably a lot of resentments behind the scenes. It does not feel naturally likable and entertaining the way it did before - the entertainment is still there, but both you and the show need to work harder for it now and sometimes it does not pull off.
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Dec 20, 2023 20:47
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roomtone posted:It's crazy how Vincent Kartheiser went on play to Pete Campbell who is one of my favourite characters ever, and apparently refuses to even talk about Angel.
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Dec 20, 2023 20:49
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That might be a case of the fanbase as well, a lot of people hated Connor back in the day, unfairly imo. If he was excited about being in the show and then paid attention to internet forums, fan magazines (the buffy/angel one was relatively popular in the UK at the time if I recall correctly, no idea if the US had one) or attended cons or whatever, wouldn't surprise me if the reception marred that part of his career, sorta like Jake Lloyd or Wil Wheaton. I guess he might have said that was the case though and Whedon being a shithead to another person wouldn't be a surprise.
thebardyspoon fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 21:00
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I will never loving understand grown-rear end adults not understanding that a performer is not their character. Basically everybody does it, too. Right up until somebody's movie star famous or known for so many different roles that people get a sense of their range. But even then, they'll have poo poo thrown at them for being a villain in something. It's loving bananas.
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Dec 20, 2023 21:07
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LividLiquid posted:I will never loving understand grown-rear end adults not understanding that a performer is not their character. People get into weird parasocial relationships with people they watch or listen to and it's always WEIRD to me. It's a job. And hell, being a villain is probably more fun to play than a stereotypical white bread good guy. But still, people equate the job to the individual. I think it comes from being lonely enough to think these people are your world, your imaginary friends.
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Dec 20, 2023 21:19
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It's a truth that permanently doomed me to being a wet blanket everywhere I go: People legit think what they saw on the teevee is real.
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Dec 20, 2023 21:43
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This is why I exclusively audition for roles that are acknowledged as their universe's greatest lovers.
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Dec 20, 2023 22:15
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When I saw that Kartheiser was playing Pete Campbell it was so easy to hate Pete because I was so used to hating Connor. Connor coming back in season 5 was actually good though. He just wanted to go to Tony Romo's.
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Dec 21, 2023 04:17
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Agreed in that Connor wasn't my fav part of Angel, but Pete Campbell was way too entertaining for me to hate. Man Mad Men is good.
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Dec 21, 2023 08:23
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 I saw Michelle Trachtenberg in Harriet the Spy, in which I vaguely remembered her and her tomato/mayonnaise sandwiches, and Gossip Girl, in which I loved her character. To see her in Buffy... and especially not getting the whole sister dynamic, being far away from being a pre-teen/teen, and having never been a caretaker... well, let's just say I didn't like Dawn, charitably. I knew she was a great actress, it's just the writing wasn't in my demo.
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Dec 21, 2023 08:31
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I dunno how many times I have watched this show, but Dawn (and Michelle's performance thereof) gets better in my estimation every single time.
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Dec 21, 2023 10:43
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Veryslightlymad posted:I dunno how many times I have watched this show, but Dawn (and Michelle's performance thereof) gets better in my estimation every single time. Same. I would encourage folks who haven't watched in a while and remember hating her to go back and try again now that you have a few more years behind you. It's not a guarantee, but you might be surprised how much you like Dawn this time around. See also: Quinn Morgendorffer (I promise this is the last time I bring up Daria in the Buffy thread).
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Dec 21, 2023 12:23
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Veryslightlymad posted:I dunno how many times I have watched this show, but Dawn (and Michelle's performance thereof) gets better in my estimation every single time. Does the same happen with Connor? I also disliked him and hated the Cordy/Connor relationship. It felt like the show jumped the shark by bringing in Cousin Oliver. In fact, thinking about it a little more, it was all the Cordy/Connor relationship that brought out the ick. I saw Mad Men before I saw Buffy, so I know he's a great actor when given decent writing.
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Dec 21, 2023 14:10
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I think it is a similar situation to Dawn in some ways (although I always thought both of them were fine at their "worst" points even during my first watch of their respective seasons). In her case they play up the annoying kid sister bit in those initial couple episodes for obvious reasons and that poisons the well a little bit for some folks for a longer time than it should. Whereas he's kinda written to be annoying to the audience because from the perspective of a viewer who knows he's been manipulated or hosed with, you're like "oh god, just see it you fool!" but obviously he's basically got incredible PTSD/brainwashing/gaslighting all going on and so his incredible distrust and hostility is honestly pretty understandable through that lens. He also derails the Angel/Cordelia thing of course, if someone was super invested in that then they're gonna dislike him a bit more, that was what fueled my speculation in the last post on it potentially being the fanbase that could have ruined the role for him, fanbases get loving WEIRD about shipping stuff.
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Dec 21, 2023 14:30
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I liked Connor, and liked "Angel" all the way through. Joss being a piece of poo poo with Charisma Carpenter definitely hurts rewatches knowing that certain chunks of the show were just made to spite her. But in-show, it never really bothered me, I figured the weird grossness was supposed to be weird and gross to everyone.
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Dec 21, 2023 15:41
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egon_beeblebrox posted:I liked Connor, and liked "Angel" all the way through. Joss being a piece of poo poo with Charisma Carpenter definitely hurts rewatches knowing that certain chunks of the show were just made to spite her. But in-show, it never really bothered me, I figured the weird grossness was supposed to be weird and gross to everyone. Yeah... the whole, "I like the girl my dad likes and see her as a mother figure, so I slept with her while she was possessed with the evil spirit of my future child is just too convoluted and oedipal for my taste. He gets better when he makes his reappearance in the final season of Angel, proving the dude just needed to be away from the weird poo poo and with a normal family to be palatable.
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Dec 21, 2023 15:49
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Anyone else say to themselves "Dog spit is cleaner than humans" anytime they hear someone say "What do we know?" or is that just me
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Dec 21, 2023 15:52
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Connor himself gets better, but Angel season 4 is, I am sorry to say, just bad. It's really really bad.
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Dec 21, 2023 18:15
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Nah it owns.
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Dec 21, 2023 18:30
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Connor talking like a slick MTV teen when he was raised semi-feral by an 18th century Englishman has always been my nitpick. Dawn rules.
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Dec 21, 2023 18:56
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I also like Season 4 a lot. It has its missteps, but it's structured really interestingly, in that instead of a big overarching plot or one-shots, it's a series of 4 or 5 mini-arcs with lots of connective tissue in between them. And each of those is pretty solidly paced, never spending too much time on a premise that it wears out its welcome. It's very comic book-y, not least of all because it's ripping off Inferno.
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Dec 21, 2023 22:56
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yous ever thought about how the style of buffy's hair sort of suits each season thematically even in a couple of ways that i don't think were intended because of the realities of being a 7 year run show
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Dec 24, 2023 00:51
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This doesn't matter even at all, but Season 4 will always confuse me because basically every episode ends where the next begins, so it must take place over the course of just a few weeks at most, but nine months pass. It's good, but it's so dark and weird that it's kind of difficult to get through.
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Dec 24, 2023 00:59
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How so? I just recall Season 2 having those hideous short SHORT bangs (a la Courtney Cox) and bad choppy highlights. Season 5 had the prettiest hair, followed by Season 1.
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Dec 24, 2023 01:00
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Pan Dulce posted:How so? I just recall Season 2 having those hideous short SHORT bangs (a la Courtney Cox) and bad choppy highlights. the bangs were s3 which i'll get to these might not all be slam dunks but: s1: mostly natural doing the best with what we have, haven't actually figured anything out but looks good, kinda relaxed s2: in a little trouble, hones in on centralising the core of the show/hair to the extent of a bit of shine s3: confident in itself and willing to take some loving risks *the bangs happen* okay they're not all going to work but b+ s4: i completely know i'm hot and don't even have to try, so i won't s5: i am literally a goddess in a war of gods, observe my 20ft goldilocks and season s6: it's time to face facts. i've got some serious personal issues, on and off the set, things are...i dunno they're weird s7: no look, i'm super blond again and in so many high gloss styles like s4 i'm SO still the same show just let us do one more season okay it's more like, the atmosphere i imagine behind the scenes on each season matching up with buffy's hair. i mean i'm sure some of these were intended, some are hostile so i doubt, but there's somebody who says what is buffy's hair like this ep, and thinks about these things.
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Dec 24, 2023 01:08
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LividLiquid posted:This doesn't matter even at all, but Season 4 will always confuse me because basically every episode ends where the next begins, so it must take place over the course of just a few weeks at most, but nine months pass. Yeah it is pretty wild, (spoilers for Angel S4 here)they do at points say that a few weeks have passed between a few episodes and I think the blotting out the sun parts supposed to have lasted a few weeks when it ends (which is crazy cause that'd surely have lead to way more deaths than it seems to have but whatever, vampires suck at organising stuff I guess). If by nine months you specifically mean because Cordelia gives birth, they do say it's a magical pregnancy and it goes by way quicker just in general, then they do the spell to bring it about right away by sacrificing the virgin when she gets found out as well. I suppose you have to assume that Angel being in a box for a few months brings the start of actual Season 4 stuff further into Buffy's season 7 enough that when S4 ends, he can cleanly hop over to give her the amulet right when it's convenient having dealt with the Connor stuff.
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Dec 24, 2023 01:13
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Less the pregnancy and more that it's nine months because Buffy and Angel both take place more or less in real time, week to week-wise. They always start in September and go through to May. We never see either show in the summer. And Angel kept pace with Buffy that season if memory serves. The timeline is just all over the place. Again, doesn't matter at all. It's just weird considering how most of the episodes end on cliffhangers where the next one starts.
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Dec 24, 2023 01:18
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it doesn't matter at all but you are right, angel s4 is a promising season of 24 starring jack bauer with multiple casting, logistics and internal consistency issues edit and writing
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Dec 24, 2023 01:25
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roomtone posted:s7: no look, i'm super blond again and in so many high gloss styles like s4 i'm SO still the same show just let us do one more season Did they really want one more season after 7? I thought by this point, SMG didn't want to do it anymore and had more jobs lined up and Hannigan was getting more outside movie roles too.
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Dec 24, 2023 01:36
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Whedon said on commentary that the closing of the first episode of 7 with all of the Big Bads should put to rest the rumor that 7 wasn't supposed to be the end. But it's Whedon.
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Dec 24, 2023 01:45
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Pan Dulce posted:Did they really want one more season after 7? I thought by this point, SMG didn't want to do it anymore and had more jobs lined up and Hannigan was getting more outside movie roles too. that's kinda of what i was getting at, i'll try again s7 buffy's hair: it was a struggle for everyone involved, the spark is gone but ugh okay that's some good money we can probably at least do a decent spike arc. dye it blonde. LividLiquid posted:Whedon said on commentary that the closing of the first episode of 7 with all of the Big Bads should put to rest the rumor that 7 wasn't supposed to be the end. nah that tracks as honest for me the first is a very whedon idea. okay s2 i did vampire boyfriend s3 i did patriarchy i DID IT EASILY UGH s4 military industrial camplex loving satired ahjahahahahahahaahaha oh. my mom died in 1992...wow that takes me bac Chapter 2: the Body joss whedon. understands. death. Chapter 3: musical epidemic joss whedon...how are you so loving good....this is utterly epic entertainment - pre 2002 humanity roomtone fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Dec 24, 2023 |
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Dec 24, 2023 01:49
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