Buffy the Vampire Slayer

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Buffy the Vampire Slayer

sad question: May 30, 2020

I like the silly "supernatural as metaphor for mundane" stuff in the show. Coach giving his team performance drugs that make them aggressive and fish monsters or frat boys who spike your drink to sacrifice you to demons and stuff like that. Often goofy but made the show relatable to teenagers.

Speaking of relatable I feel obliged to bring up Xander because I feel a lot of people identified with him when they first watched the show. If you rewatch it as an adult he gives off an incredible amount of red flags and is generally terrible, even without bringing up the stuff with his actor

# ¿ Mar 14, 2022 10:40

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 12:13

sad question: May 30, 2020

There's a difference between writing a flawed character and inadvertently revealing something about yourself through writing. Xander, especially in the beginning, is giving off massive 'nice guy' alarm bells.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2022 15:06

sad question: May 30, 2020

If this topic was around when I did a rewatch I would be better about providing examples. I just remember frequently feeling that he was a bigger shithead than the show acknowledged.

To say something nice, I liked the long arc where he stopped feeling sad about not going to college and slowly built a career for himself. By the end he was most successful of the main cast, at least in this aspect.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2022 15:48

sad question: May 30, 2020

I encourage more comics posting because they sound fascinatingly terrible. I remember being tempted by the Angel one because it looked like it went through what season 6 could have been but seems like I dodged a bullet.

# ¿ Mar 15, 2022 08:21

sad question: May 30, 2020

Dawn's introduction led to interesting things but it always felt frustrating to me that it meant that characters remembered all events up to that point differently than the viewers :shrug:

But as long as we are naming best things about the show I will mention that Armin Shimerman as Principal Snyder owns. Very funny character and performance.

# ¿ Mar 15, 2022 12:17

sad question: May 30, 2020

It's a somewhat ham handed character but the poo poo that comes out of his mouth is amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcgKHs-RBkU

Spoilers for his eventual fate.

# ¿ Mar 15, 2022 12:52

sad question: May 30, 2020

NikkolasKing posted:

Season 7 ends with Anya dying all alone and undiscovered, Spike having to be sacrificed, and Sunnydale collapsing into oblivion, right?

As I recall someone tells Xander she died fighting so undiscovered bit is not strictly true. And Sunnydale I think was evacuated.

roomtone posted:

yeah every finale is bittersweet (except 4, it's a totally different thing). even s3 has angel leaving. i was just talking about where it generally leaves the characters, primarily buffy.

In that case throw S7 into the happy pile because the last shot is her smiling because of the newfound freedom.

For Angel I think only S1 is purely positive. S2 despite the silliness has last minute gut punch, S3 and S4 are grim in their own ways. S5 finale depends on what message you take from it. I remember someone on the forums making a case that it's a powerful rebuke of cynicism and there's something to it. Despite the undeniable sadness, the message of fighting the good fight being a worthy goal by itself is plenty powerful. "Let's go to work".

# ¿ Mar 18, 2022 20:28

sad question: May 30, 2020

NikkolasKing posted:

Yes that was Andrew I'm pretty sure because he is the liar and he lied to Xander. Xander was looking for her and we see her corpse just out of sight of him and Andrew tells him a big story about her epic demise when in reality she died all alone and as I was saying undiscovered.

Her death was unpleasantly unceremonious but Andrew was right there making GBS threads his pants and she died fighting a group of ubervamps after taking a few of them down, so that summary is not very fair.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2022 20:50

sad question: May 30, 2020

In all fairness the way her death played out bothered me too, even before knowing behind the scenes stuff.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2022 21:26

sad question: May 30, 2020

Does... one of the Strengths say "good cock"? :confused:

# ¿ Mar 19, 2022 18:21

sad question: May 30, 2020

Marenghi posted:

This thread has peaked my interest and I've decided watch it again. Skipped season 1 and straight into the second.

I don't remember the body doubles for Buffy being so obvious. I thought the combat was good back then but maybe i just didn't pay as much attention.
And some falls by the actors are hilarious. Giles gets thrown into a wall by the demon they summoned when he was ripper. He awkwardly stumbles onto his knees as though he's about to fall forward one way then falls backwards the other way.
Also noticing a lot more bloopers but that could be that Disney is using the HD remaster. One episode Spike runs off after being defeated and then he just stops in the background far right of frame.

I also don't know was it just more acceptable culturally back then or if it was mentioned at the time, but the Angel/Buffy romance comes across really creepy watching as an adult in 2022 if you stop to think about it.
She's 17 in season 2, Angel fell in love with her when he saw her few years before that so she was 14/15. Giles doesn't seem all that bothered that Buffy loves an ancient vampire with the body of a man in his late 20s.
Her mother does oppose it and it does go bad like she warned. So maybe there was a lesson there about teenagers dating older men.
Or maybe the writers didn't put much thought into beyond it drives the plot and there's no way to have her in school and be of consenting age. Still, it just gives reason to pause when the relationship scenes come up.

You can definitely tell when stunt actors are on screen in HD. This caused me to develop a stance of "just make sure the hair is similar and don't zoom on the face and it's fine" during my Buffy rewatch :v:

Any criticism you can level at the creepyness of Twilight romance is also applicable to Buffy/Angel relationship, yeah. At least they pull the trigger on him becoming abusive (even if it's because of magic bullshit) and he eventually fucks off so this smooths over it somewhat.

NikkolasKing posted:

Also Holland Manners was an amazing villain. Between him and the Mayor, somebody on Buffy and Angel knows how to write super polite and charming but super evil people very well. But once more Buffy and Angel are different. Aa friend of mine once pointed out the Mayor is pretty cartoonish in how over-the-top nice he is while Holland was a very believable "middle management evil."

I am reminded of this great bit from Angel when he decides to go to the Wolfram & Hart "home world" and gets a talk about evil from Holland:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTiYR9PsmXc&t=158s

Edit: Something that I really liked about Mayor is that his relationship with Faith is completely genuine. There is no double cross or ulterior motive, he wants what's best for his adoptive daughter, it just happens that he is ridiculously evil so they do evil poo poo together. When he talks to the doctor at the hospital after the fight with Buffy he is actually devastated :smith:

sad question fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Mar 19, 2022

# ¿ Mar 19, 2022 20:18

sad question: May 30, 2020

I felt they did a poor job of integrating him into the cast. Few fun interactions with people aside from Buffy.

And when they gave him drama it was weird poo poo like getting addicted to crack whore vampires sucking him.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2022 09:45

sad question: May 30, 2020

We do not disrespect Beer Bad in this house.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2022 20:08

sad question: May 30, 2020

I thought Jonathan getting very offended that Buffy thought he was going to shoot people in Earshot was kinda funny but I can see why they didn't air the episode after Columbine.

On a rewatch it was slightly eyebrow raising that of all ancillary characters, they killed off the only gay guy in Graduation. Then again they really didn't know what to do with him.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2022 08:51

sad question: May 30, 2020

There was also Oz's friend.

NikkolasKing posted:

Talking about the characters who fought and didn't particularly do so well, a strong motivation I have to rewatch Angel is to try and remember why Wesley turns from this whimpering buffoon into what he did. I remember vague details like he is in love with Fred but she ends up with Gunn. I'm sure this was a twist that shocked a lot of people, it shocked a younger me at least. I don't know if this is why he starts having sex with Lilah but I remember them being one of the few romantic relationships on the show I liked. His change wasn't immediate, I wanna say Psycho Wesley was a Season 3 and 4 thing, so presumably a lot ore happens to him besides Fred falling in love with somebody else. Now I'm really thinking on it...I wanna ay he's kicked out of Angel Investigations for some reason.

Nobody has to tell me or anything. I just can't wait to see the show again and figure all that out.

Not sure what you are talking about, Wesley was a rogue demon hunter from the start :clint:

# ¿ Mar 24, 2022 10:38

sad question: May 30, 2020

I'm think "going out with a bang" part feels like a misdirect so audience thinks he wants her to go out in a blaze of glory. But even looking from in-universe standpoint that part could just be ironic given he actually gives her a way to swap bodies. Like, "I guess """"Faith"""" is about to get got, WINK."

The first part of the quote is just acknowledging she lost her entire emotional and material support network while retaining numerous and powerful enemies which puts her in extremely bad position. He couldn't predict someone would go to bat for her after all the stuff that went on.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2022 12:15

sad question: May 30, 2020

I felt that both shows had a problem with guest characters acting a bit weird during crossovers. Funnily, Faith is an example of this when she went back from ATS to BTVS later on.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2022 17:17

sad question: May 30, 2020

As for the question, he helps them with some problem of the week and helpfully informs them Scoobies no longer consider Angel's team good guys.

edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCYlsFagq_k

sad question fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Mar 27, 2022

# ¿ Mar 27, 2022 18:30

sad question: May 30, 2020

I watched Hercules/Xena as a kid but I'm not sure they ever approached Buffy in quality. Then again, they had Bruce Campbell and Ted Raimi...

# ¿ Apr 5, 2022 05:55

sad question: May 30, 2020

I am glad that Xena was brought up because for years I was sure this was something from my fever dream but it was real all along:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc_tQKmUo2M

# ¿ Apr 5, 2022 20:44

sad question: May 30, 2020

I recall thinking that Xander mouthing off to Dracula and immediately getting Renfielded was funny.

# ¿ Apr 21, 2022 10:32

sad question: May 30, 2020

That's funny but what is the real comic about?

Oh no

# ¿ Apr 22, 2022 22:23

sad question: May 30, 2020

Remember when he played poker with demons but with kittens instead of money

# ¿ Apr 25, 2022 08:44

sad question: May 30, 2020

I felt Xander's lie was lovely and rooted in his feelings about Buffy/Angel. Also Willow in that instance did fine and her spell worked :confused:

# ¿ Apr 26, 2022 20:53

sad question: May 30, 2020

Veryslightlymad posted:

Which means she traumatized her friend and sent a man with a soul to Hell. Don't pin that bullshit on Xander. That would have happened regardless of what he said. Or a worse outcome. What, you think the portal wouldn't still open if Buffy knew? There's less than zero basis for that argument. How would she have defeated Angelus faster? She couldn't have. Not without killing him, which defeats the point of the spell.

I mean if Xander didn't lie that might prevent Buffy from sending Angel to hell. There may be zero basis for my argument but what you're saying is also speculation so who could say. She could throw a rock at his head and then run around a table as he chases her until the spell works.

Veryslightlymad posted:

Willow thought she knew better, and hurt everyone. Which is a recurring theme.

Xander lashing out because he disapproves of Buffy's relationships is also a recurring theme. Both Willow and Xander grow throughout the series and first seasons is when he is worst about jealousy stuff. You remember Willow's arc very well so I don't get why you forget this factor in Xander's decision making process.

Veryslightlymad posted:

I'll take my analysis a step further, though. Nearly five seasons later, Willow learns about the lie, and her response is a little hurt "I didn't say that." And that's it. A lot of people were upset that it was such a wet fart of a reveal after so long.

But here's the thing: Willow was merely a little sad and hurt instead of angry because she realized that Xander did the right thing. This scene is after Willow goes off the deep end, and she has had almost a year of struggle and self-reflection and facing hard truths about herself, and she can see her own destructive pattern. I think it's a great moment to show off that she's come so far. Any point before the season 6 finale would have ended in the outrage fans still held out for. But Willow has finally grown.

I prefer to find the explanations inside the show but this is a case where it just feels like a poor writing. They waited too long to address it and realized they can't think of a way to do it properly without torching relationship between Buffy and Xander. They went with a wet fart reveal and until you wrote about it I genuinely couldn't remember how it played out.

# ¿ Apr 27, 2022 11:32

sad question: May 30, 2020

Veryslightlymad posted:

But the biggest point is, Xander isn't responsible for what happened to Angel, always gets blamed for it, and Willow, who is definitely responsible, never does. There's tons of reasons to get after Xander for his behavior, but this specific one is just people's impressions of the characters coloring their objectivity.

I absolutely agree, my opinion of Xander definitely colors how I perceive his choice here. But while I do not want to discourage care posting itt or to seem dismissive of in-depth analysis, I think it's also alright to be a bit unfair towards character I dislike because he often makes my skin crawl. It's not like it will cause him to get thrown into tv prison.

However, if I could, I would definitely throw Xander into tv prison.

I suspect people are more lenient on Willow because Scoobies flying by the seat of their pants and pulling last minute upsets is kinda their M.O. and this seems like another instance of that. Meanwhile, Xander has a tendency to chant kill-your-boyfriend anytime Angel comes up so his choice feels like extension of that instead of a result of careful consideration.

# ¿ Apr 28, 2022 09:16

sad question: May 30, 2020

Hot take time: while Buffy had modest budget the monster designs and costumes were generally really solid. With exception of werewolves. They look dumb. They move dumb. They are all around terrible. I know that the guy inside the costume is doing his best but that little run is awful.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2022 09:33

sad question: May 30, 2020

Man of many talents

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blu2DZclU1g

# ¿ Jul 11, 2023 12:17

sad question: May 30, 2020

He would make Giles poo poo in a bucket

# ¿ Jul 16, 2023 21:13

sad question: May 30, 2020

Well that is upsetting

# ¿ Aug 3, 2023 22:02

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 12:13

sad question: May 30, 2020

I remember seeing a lot of familiar faces in minor roles when I watched Angel S1 couple of months back. Stand out was probably baby Jeremy Renner as an eeeevil vampire.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2023 12:51

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