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Saganlives posted:That was a great episode. I loved the whole sequence between Blackthorne, Mariko and the Courtesan. Incidentally, as someone who tries to be very deliberate in their choice of words to convey proper meaning, something that really bugs me about Mariko in the show and the book is that she doesn't translate exactly and often twists the meaning of both parties. I understand its an integral part of her character and how she survives politically, and even that it's part of what makes her an interesting character, but it still drives me crazy. I get frustrated on Blackthorne's behalf even when he doesn't know she's doing it, lol Spoilers I guess: Courtesan: “please come back soon.” Mariko, translating: “uh, she says goodbye.”
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Mar 27, 2024 04:41
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Beefeater1980 posted:Spoilers I guess: I like how that one can cut three ways. Mariko editorializing for her benefit. But also, "Let's do this again" or "Let's hang out soon" is a pretty common farewell in Japanese and is not necessarily a promise to further hang out. You get a lot of people in the JapanLife subreddits getting frustrated with this. But it's kinda like how "How are you?" is not an invitation for a sudden therapy session. But also, of course they would very much appreciate repeat business from Toranaga's purse.
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Mar 27, 2024 04:48
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No kidding they would love to have mariko back considering how bad she got fleeced. I have it on good authority you could have saved another 200 moneys 
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Mar 27, 2024 04:51
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This week's episode was fantastic. The show definitely helps having some room to breathe and working with the plotlines already in motion, nothing too overly dramatic or over-indulgent. It was a nice episode to settle in with things a bit before things presumably pop off again next episode.
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Mar 27, 2024 05:01
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My quick look at the Shogun subreddit has some folks itching for more action, but man, I gotta say, the cut to all of Sugiyama's entourage slaughtered hit hard and I can't think of any spinning and kicking and clanging of swords that I would like to see in its place.
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Mar 27, 2024 05:07
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:My quick look at the Shogun subreddit has some folks itching for more action, but man, I gotta say, the cut to all of Sugiyama's entourage slaughtered hit hard and I can't think of any spinning and kicking and clanging of swords that I would like to see in its place. Especially how it lingers so long on Sugiyama's wife amid the aftermath of the slaughter. I think she's on screen as a corpse for longer than she is alive.
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Mar 27, 2024 05:13
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Every woman in this show is written so goddamn well. How do we get this writing throughout Hollywood? I need more Ochibas and Fujis in my life.
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Mar 27, 2024 05:21
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Ochiba as the next Mission Impossible baddie, played EXACTLY the same way 
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Mar 27, 2024 05:23
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Jerusalem posted:Ochiba as the next Mission Impossible baddie, played EXACTLY the same way I was thinking that or as a Bond Villian.
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Mar 27, 2024 05:26
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They better pay off Mariko and and Ochiba duelling with naginatas at the start of the episode. That throwdown is going to be fantastic.
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Mar 27, 2024 05:29
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A Sneaker Broker posted:Every woman in this show is written so goddamn well. How do we get this writing throughout Hollywood? I need more Ochibas and Fujis in my life. I'm really impressed at how well Kiku not only molds herself to the needs of the different men she's with, but that in this episode we also see that she's really intuitive and good at this even with women. In lazier writing this could have easily been a stereotypical portrayal. Instead, she's a 1600s therapist.
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Mar 27, 2024 05:32
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counterfeitsaint posted:This is a bit of a tangent, but speaking of Chernobyl, I remember Russia was real mad when that came out and they said they were gonna make their own version of the show, with blackjack and hookers, and, presumably, not full of western lies like the HBO version. Did that ever happen? Да.
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Mar 27, 2024 05:34
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:I like how that one can cut three ways. It’s brilliantly ambiguous yeah. It’s not clear how the first statement is intended, not clear how Mariko understood it, and not clear whether she’s faithfully conveying the meaning as she understands it or shutting down the idea of a repeat trip.
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Mar 27, 2024 05:37
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:I'm really impressed at how well Kiku not only molds herself to the needs of the different men she's with, but that in this episode we also see that she's really intuitive and good at this even with women. In lazier writing this could have easily been a stereotypical portrayal. Instead, she's a 1600s therapist. It reminds me of Akemi from Blue Eye Samurai, someone else who's able to very quickly figure out the men in her life and shape herself to get what she wants t out of them without them even realizing what's happening.
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Mar 27, 2024 05:38
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Really great episode, I am really loving the pacing. I wasn't sure what to expect given last week's slow burn, but yet another introspective, measured episode that focuses on the characters was such a great choice. Instead of just ticking the plot event boxes, the showrunners are really working to establish mood and subtlety in how the characters interact. What a breath of fresh air compared against so many other shows that feel rushed or awkwardly paced.
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Mar 27, 2024 06:27
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Any time Blackthorne says “the Japans” my heart tickles. 
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Mar 27, 2024 06:42
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Ballz posted:Any time Blackthorne says “the Japans” my heart tickles. I love the recurring motif of Blackthorne: I would like to leave the Japans, please. Toranaga: gently caress you.
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Mar 27, 2024 06:46
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nine-gear crow posted:I love the recurring motif of Toranaga: Also, here's a promotion, pay raise, and hotties to bang. edit: Toranaga: Or not bang. Whatever. I've got more pressing poo poo to deal with, geeze. Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Mar 27, 2024 |
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Mar 27, 2024 06:59
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If only Yabu realized that he and Toranaga could bond over not having time for nonsense 
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Mar 27, 2024 07:15
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:
isn't that just an adult thing
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Mar 27, 2024 07:53
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YaketySass posted:isn't that just an adult thing I'm just saying there are set phrases like that in Japanese, and Mariko might have been conveniently removing the confusion that comes from a literal translation. Edit; As in, did she know that of course this was always a one-time thing, or did she decide this will be a one-time thing? Edit 2 (yeah, I'm editing this again), because the subtitles for Kiku's farewell were translated literally. And Mariko's translation might hit different (less sassy and more just impatient, perhaps) if you're a native Japanese speaker. Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Mar 27, 2024 |
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Mar 27, 2024 08:04
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:I'm just saying there are set phrases like that in Japanese, and Mariko might have been conveniently removing the confusion that comes from a literal translation. I definitely get the impression that sometimes she's aiming for clarity and other times... she's got slightly different motives.
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Mar 27, 2024 08:06
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Quinton posted:I definitely get the impression that sometimes she's aiming for clarity and other times... she's got slightly different motives. Yeah, she really simplified Blackthorne's comments to Toranaga about the Portuguese and the Blackship.
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Mar 27, 2024 08:10
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Quinton posted:I definitely get the impression that sometimes she's aiming for clarity and other times... she's got slightly different motives. Yeah, although sometimes it's as simple as "that won't go over well, I'll massage it a bit so everyone keeps their heads".
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Mar 27, 2024 08:22
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On one level I can understand the impatience to be getting on with things - we've had a couple of successive episodes where characters have signalled the end credits by very dramatically declaring "It's war / the time for politics is over", and then the show's focus has gone right back to hanging out in Yabu's village / the decidedly political business of conducting job interviews in Osaka, with only smaller glimpses given to the audience of the forward momentum that's occurring elsewhere. It hasn't been cheap or unjustified, but I can get that it might be starting to remind viewers unfavourably of blockbuster shows like GoT that tended to stall for time mid-season by having its characters make portentous declarations of intent to a big swell of music before the end credits...and then go right back to bickering in tents, because after all there are another four episodes to go before it's time for the actual big battle sequence or betrayal. On the other hand, Shogun is proving its skill with small and understated character moments so well, and using these moments to play into the wider themes of the story so effectively, that I almost don't want them to get to the fireworks factory. (That tender but unreciprocated finger caress. Buntaru's isolated cheek twitch when he sees his wife. The unstated parallel between Blackthorne's gardener and Mariko's dad. It's all great.) grobbo fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Mar 27, 2024 |
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Mar 27, 2024 08:31
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The cinematography in this show is also on another level. I was particularly taken with this shot, the intimacy it conveys is astounding. https://i.imgur.com/ExR350f.mp4
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Mar 27, 2024 08:59
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I gotta echo whoever posted last episode about Ochiba having a noticeably different kind of pronunciation going on. Even across the language barrier, it really does come off as quite a bit more dramatic/villainous. 
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Mar 27, 2024 09:40
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Perestroika posted:I gotta echo whoever posted last episode about Ochiba having a noticeably different kind of pronunciation going on. Even across the language barrier, it really does come off as quite a bit more dramatic/villainous. Definite anime villain vibes. Also wondering if they'll eventually reveal the real reason Ochiba hates Toranaga, which I'm not sure even made sense in the book. If Toranaga DID see her he would have surely played that card long before now, although given his reputation I could see her being terrified that him not playing that card just means that he's holding onto it for some reason she can't ascertain. Having never heard of the book before this TV series, I got through maybe two episodes before I decided I needed to obsessively speedread it. And while I'm not regretting that decision, I am now eagerly anticipating seeing them carry off certain scenes.* * "So sorry, I don't believe you." out of left field and the big standoff between the Catholic factions. The show itself is beautiful. I don't have the knowledge to speak to the historical authenticity myself, but it's very clearly a top-notch production value. Since Shogun is being compared to so many preceding series, I'll add one more and say that it reminds me of Band of Brothers in the single aspect that every scene feels like it has a purpose and fills that purpose. Vorenus fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Mar 27, 2024 |
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Mar 27, 2024 10:13
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I really hope at some point Ochiba barely covers her mouth and laughs like OH HO HO HO HO
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Mar 27, 2024 19:03
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:Yeah, she really simplified Blackthorne's comments to Toranaga about the Portuguese and the Blackship. Yes, that seemed like the most egregious mistranslation of the series so far, but I'm not clear if she did it because she's Catholic or if she knew Toranaga was not going to go for it no matter what.
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Mar 27, 2024 19:14
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PostNouveau posted:Yes, that seemed like the most egregious mistranslation of the series so far, but I'm not clear if she did it because she's Catholic or if she knew Toranaga was not going to go for it no matter what. I think it's a combination of that AND still being pissed at Blackthrone and wanting to thwart his plans for petty reasons, which is part of why Toranaga sent her to the Willow World too along with him because even he was like "I can see that you're not telling me the whole story given how much the Anjin talks vs. how little you talk when relaying it to me, so go sort your poo poo out right now. We're at war, he's one of my generals now, and I don't have time for... what this high school bullshit is between you two."
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Mar 27, 2024 19:36
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You can definitely infer this, but just by virtue of hearing more internal monologues of the characters I think the book makes it a little bit more obvious by this point absolutely nobody except blackthorne thinks there is any remote possibility whatsoever of blackthorne being allowed to sail away
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Mar 27, 2024 19:41
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No Mods No Masters posted:You can definitely infer this, but just by virtue of hearing more internal monologues of the characters I think the book makes it a little bit more obvious by this point absolutely nobody except blackthorne thinks there is any remote possibility whatsoever of blackthorne being allowed to sail away Oh yeah, Toranaga knows 100% that if he gives the Erasmus back to Blackthrone, then Blackthrone is just gonna book it back to Holland and probably die along the way and completely sees through his "I will admiral the poo poo out of your fleet and defeat your enemies with my superior Dutch warship" crap. Him wanting to sink the Black Ship to help Toranaga's cause is genuine, but it's something he wants to do with Japan at his back and disappearing behind the horizon.
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Mar 27, 2024 19:44
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I don't know if the show is going to care enough to say, so I guess I'll ask a book reader: What happened to Blackthorne's crew? Are they living in the lap of luxury in Edo or shivering a different hole in the ground or all dead?
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Mar 27, 2024 19:47
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ManSedan posted:I really hope at some point Ochiba barely covers her mouth and laughs like OH HO HO HO HO I hope she wears glasses in the finale, and pushes them up her nose so the light catches them.
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Mar 27, 2024 19:47
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PostNouveau posted:I don't know if the show is going to care enough to say, so I guess I'll ask a book reader: Has there been any new stew being made?
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Mar 27, 2024 19:50
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PostNouveau posted:I don't know if the show is going to care enough to say, so I guess I'll ask a book reader: I think the show will probably still get back to them so I won't spoil. There are some important scenes involving them. I will say, the way they were handled in the book is I think pretty problematic and ahistorical, so hopefully they have some tweaks in mind with them
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Mar 27, 2024 19:53
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PostNouveau posted:I don't know if the show is going to care enough to say, so I guess I'll ask a book reader: Without giving anything plot-related away, I will just say that we will probably catch up with them in the next episode or two. One of them plays a somewhat minor role down the stretch.
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Mar 27, 2024 20:59
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Vorenus posted:Definite anime villain vibes. Also wondering if they'll eventually reveal the real reason Ochiba hates Toranaga, which I'm not sure even made sense in the book. If Toranaga DID see her he would have surely played that card long before now, although given his reputation I could see her being terrified that him not playing that card just means that he's holding onto it for some reason she can't ascertain. I'm only 65% through the book, but Ochiba also had a son before the current heir. He got sick and died as a baby during a battle/campaign that Toranaga was leading and Ochiba blamed him for it.
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Mar 27, 2024 21:12
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Be funny if the show introduced a version of Jan Joosten (the other white guy who the real Tokugawa made a samurai) and he finally meets back up with Blackthorne and he's had a comparatively dead easy time of it and just astounded by all of Blackthorne's crazy adventures (I have not read the book so if this is a spoiler, please forgive a big dummy)
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Mar 27, 2024 21:14
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