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Natalya Fartz posted:The next thing gone had to be unmasking Rey Mysterio Jr. If it was unmasking all the cruiserweights or the general treatment of the division, we might have a discussion, but just Rey's unmasking pales in comparison to some of the way dumber things on here. Why? Unmasking Juvi was probably a neutral move, he's had a great career without the mask and is really charismatic. He also lost it in a relatively important match. Unmasking Psicosis didn't matter at all to the company. Rey on the other hand was a major star in WCW and lost a lot of his star power when he lost that mask.
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Mar 29, 2014 00:16
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You're right. I had the time frame on when Rey got unmasked and who unmasked him all hosed up. I completely forgot it was Rey's mask or Elizabeth's hair. Also, I thought it was like mid to late 2000s, not early 1999. Which is why I said who gives a gently caress if Rey got unmasked cause he was over like a lead balloon at that point in time. As for unmasking everyone, they unmasked Juvi in Feburary 1998, Rey in Feburary 1999, and Psicosis in September of 1999. It just stinks of WCW going back to the well too often and too soon after something worked. Not the best argument, but hey, that's why it not on the list.
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Mar 29, 2014 02:31
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I was thinking about the various blunders and how much each one cost WCW. I was able to list the cost of some of them in the OP, but one I never thought about was Hogan vs Goldberg. If that was on PPV it was almost guaranteed to sell 600,000 PPVs. I think that's actually a low estimate, but let's go with that. Now, what would the average show do, because this PPV isn't coming out of thin air, it's replacing another main event that drew some number. I think the average WCW PPV in 98 did a bit under 300,000 buys, but let's call it 300,000 to make the math easy, since a Hogan show averaged a bit more than a non-Hogan show. (Not as much as usual because Starrcade was a non-Hogan show and did well above average, as did Souled Out.) So WCW lost out on 300,000 extra buys x $30 per buy / .4 (their PPV cut.) That's $3,600,000 extra. I'd guess the gate for such a show would be larger than average, but we can't assume that since the venues are booked so far in advance. Let's just go with the PPV numbers. I'm not sure what Hogan's cut would be. He was guaranteed $600,000 if a show didn't do a certain number and a percentage of the PPV if it did. Overall on shows during this period it was well over a million, so maybe of this extra revenue he got $800,000? That means WCW lost out on around $2.5 million in additional revenue by hot shotting that angle.
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Mar 29, 2014 09:57
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What was Dave's (and other sensible analysts) opinion of the first Russo hire at the time? While we all know how it ended up I can't really fault them in 1999 and I remember column writers on the lovely RajahWWF.com type sites I used back then predicting that he'd put WCW back on top.
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Mar 29, 2014 13:13
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If I recall, Russo was considered a good hire at the time because in WWF he had people reigning in his dumber ideas, where in WCW he did not. Like the George Lucas of wrestling, he was only good at being creative when he had people telling him no. And to be fair there were very few opinion column sites that weren't lovely at the time. A few gained more credibility in the 00s as information was easier to obtain via internets. I'm still saying WCW firing Austin and several of the hiring/firing choices are among the lesser dumb moves (unless they already knew what they had in a proven star like Flair), because by comparison how many other guys who had all the potential in the world did both WWF and WCW cut loose? To me, bad TV from the creative department is more offensive than bad business. Hindsight in employee relations is always 20/20, but for creative decisions it's amazing that nobody saw the Dungeon of Doom or Shockmaster ideas and said "Yeah, this is a good idea, let's show that to millions of people."
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Mar 29, 2014 23:57
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Thauros posted:What was Dave's (and other sensible analysts) opinion of the first Russo hire at the time? While we all know how it ended up I can't really fault them in 1999 and I remember column writers on the lovely RajahWWF.com type sites I used back then predicting that he'd put WCW back on top. I haven't read any Observers from that period, but from Observer Live it seemed like it was a move worth making because creative was in such chaos and as for his moves, it was a wait and see thing.
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Mar 30, 2014 00:05
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Russo had the rest of the WWE staff act as a filter so folks had good reason to be optimistic originally.
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Mar 30, 2014 02:42
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Yeah, there was actually optimism when Russo went to WCW because things were so lovely that someone who tasted success in WWF was, if anything, a step up. Many were unconvinced but were willing to see what a creative shake-up would entail because WCW needed one badly. Though the only people that said "Russo will improve WCW so much they will beat the WWF in the ratings again!" were Russo fanboys. Yes, Russo had fanboys back then who were the bane of the wrestling fan community at the time because they would. not. listen to why the guy was kind of an idiot and not responsible for WWF's success without people like McMahon and others who shot down his really lovely ideas. Then the few terrible Russo ideas that got through where attributed to "well, Russo works on a committee so he can't be responsible for every detail". It was maddening and even WrestleCrap had to take time out of their schedule to knock the Russo supporters down a peg. Even after WCW died, there were so many Russo supporters saying "well, WCW was just sick so don't blame him!" and it wasn't until TNA really started to get lovely under him (around 2007) did they either shut-up or become convinced. Justin Godscock fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Mar 30, 2014 |
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Mar 30, 2014 06:14
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sticklefifer posted:If I recall, Russo was considered a good hire at the time because in WWF he had people reigning in his dumber ideas, where in WCW he did not. Like the George Lucas of wrestling, he was only good at being creative when he had people telling him no. And to be fair there were very few opinion column sites that weren't lovely at the time. A few gained more credibility in the 00s as information was easier to obtain via internets. To be honest, the Shockmaster wasn't a terrible idea as a concept. It's just the botch that hosed it up. This was still pre-Hogan WCW, and they pulled weirder poo poo than sticking a guy in a mask. Dungeon of Doom is a bit of Hogan needed to feud with someone not named Ric Flair, Hogan, Kevin Sullivan, and Hogan. Sullivan had feuded with Hogan in '94 with the 3 Faces of Fear. Those 3 guys, plus a crazy cult leader really started the Dungeon of Doom. The initial concept isn't too far from what The Ministry of Darkness, although they decided to up the reliance on Ed Leslie and a rotating cast of big dudes. It's really the sheer longevity that is more amazing. They managed to exist for an entire year after Hogan turned heel, basically negating the only unifying factor.
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Mar 30, 2014 16:58
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ayn rand hand job posted:To be honest, the Shockmaster wasn't a terrible idea as a concept. It's just the botch that hosed it up. This was still pre-Hogan WCW, and they pulled weirder poo poo than sticking a guy in a mask. This really begs the question of how the Shockmaster would have wrestled if he hadn't fallen down in his debut. Would they have given him electrical powers to shock opponents with? What would he have done differently after being a fat guy in a sparkly helmet?
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Mar 30, 2014 18:31
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RZApublican posted:This really begs the question of how the Shockmaster would have wrestled if he hadn't fallen down in his debut. Would they have given him electrical powers to shock opponents with? What would he have done differently after being a fat guy in a sparkly helmet? I've wondered what the original plan for his in-ring attire was. After the "incident" he did actually wrestle, but he had a hardhat and sort of a white working man's outfit for the actual match at Fall Brawl. What was supposed to be under the glitter trooper helmet? Just Fred Ottman and his mustache or was there something else planned (like Vader's leather straps under the monster helmet)
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Mar 30, 2014 18:40
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So do we define dumb as the most ridiculously stupid idea or the most needlessly self-damaging and expensive one? From the voting I guess we're ggoing with the latter - Burning the observer seems to rank as really stupid because it was contradicting a kayfabe injury to make a pointless shot against meltzer (who was right anyway) just to feed hogan's ego but it didn't really mean much in the scale of things because it was a small segment and didn't cost them anything?
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Mar 30, 2014 18:48
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Blasmeister posted:So do we define dumb as the most ridiculously stupid idea or the most needlessly self-damaging and expensive one? That's the whole point of this as it's obviously pretty subjective if something pointlessly petty but ultimately harmless like the Observer segment is dumber than something like hiring Russo which seemed rational at the time but had dire consequences. You also have stuff like the Hogan/Goldberg Nitro which was awesome from a non PPV watching fan's perspective but a stupid business decision. For me the absolute worst is poo poo like the Fingerpoke Nitro which completes the trifecta of being a dumb idea on paper that led to awful television and had negative long term repercussions.
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Mar 30, 2014 19:01
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Blasmeister posted:So do we define dumb as the most ridiculously stupid idea or the most needlessly self-damaging and expensive one? The Observer thing was really stupid because WCW started booking to both cater to and to swerve the same small audience. They would have been better served to cater to their majority fanbase.
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Mar 30, 2014 19:14
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Results are in: Hogan Burns the Observer: 23 Beach Blast Mini Movie: 11 Hiring Bill Watts: 3 Re-Branding: 12 Austin Jobbing to Hacksaw: 1 Monster Truck Sumo: 1 Pillman Tricks Bischoff: 2 Black Scorpion: 1 Firing Steve Austin: 3 Hiring Russo: 6 Firing Foley: 3 White Hummer: 1 Goldberg vs Hogan: 1 Hog Wild: 1 Hogan burning the Observer ran away with it, and the Re-branding avoided a tie in the last vote to become the second elimination! john cena's post was counted as a vote for Burning the Observer.
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Mar 31, 2014 09:20
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Hiring Russo: 4 Beach Blast: 12 Pillman Tricks Bischoff: 2 WCW and Mick Foley Part Ways: 4 Doomsday Cage: 1 The White Hummer: 2 Bill Watts: 1 Goldberg vs Hogan: 1 Judy Bagwell, tag team champ: 1 The Beach Blast mini movie is gone!
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Apr 2, 2014 20:04
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I think Mick Foley leaving WCW should be next because if I remember right from his book that he wanted out of WCW at that time anyway. So WCW firing/letting him go wasn't a dumb move from WCW.
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Apr 2, 2014 21:21
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Would WCW pissing off Foley to the point of him wanting out not count as part of that, though?
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Apr 2, 2014 21:28
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Yeah, they really put Foley in that situation because they were doing dumb things with him like Lost in Cleveland and were just not interested in convincing him to stay. Foley quit because he had enough but to say WCW had no part in his decision isn't quite accurate.
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Apr 2, 2014 21:48
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Blasmeister posted:Would WCW pissing off Foley to the point of him wanting out not count as part of that, though? It's up to the voter to decide.
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Apr 2, 2014 22:15
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Justin Godscock posted:Yeah, they really put Foley in that situation because they were doing dumb things with him like Lost in Cleveland and were just not interested in convincing him to stay. Foley quit because he had enough but to say WCW had no part in his decision isn't quite accurate. Not to mention Foley lost a loving ear for the company and they weren't willing to take advantage of having such a simple and effective story just handed to them.
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Apr 2, 2014 22:17
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Perry Normal posted:Not to mention Foley lost a loving ear for the company and they weren't willing to take advantage of having such a simple and effective story just handed to them. This is the biggest issue with WCW I always thought because even in the final two years when things were going horrible for them they would stumble into something actually good or with lots of potential then find a way to totally gently caress it up. It's the reason why I voted for the re-branding because it made some sense at the time plus lots of companies in dire straights will change a logo or branding to shake things up. WCW hosed it up with the bird poo poo logo and the set people could slip on but the biggest screw-up is NOTHING changed. It was the same old mediocre programming just with new graphics. It's the opposite of what a re-branding is.
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Apr 2, 2014 23:09
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WCW and Mick Foley Part Ways: 6 Hiring Bill Watts: 3 Hiring Russo: 9 Goldberg vs Hogan: 1 Pillman Tricks Bischoff: 2 Hogan vs Giant, MONSTER TRUCKS: 1 Letting the Radicalz Leave: 1 Black Scorpion: 1 The White Hummer: 1 Hog Wild: 1 Vince Russo's hiring apparently wasn't that stupid after all!
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Apr 10, 2014 05:44
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MassRafTer posted:Vince Russo's hiring apparently wasn't that stupid after all! Only the first time.
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Apr 10, 2014 13:17
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Natalya Fartz posted:Only the first time. He was only hired once!
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Apr 11, 2014 03:58
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Honestly, I still say that hiring Russo had to have looked like a good move at the time. Keeping him onboard, though...
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Apr 11, 2014 04:21
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MassRafTer posted:He was only hired once! Fine, reinstated as booker. Which, to a man who has an ego and is Vince Russo, pretty much the same thing. I am hella PEEVED fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Apr 11, 2014 |
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Apr 11, 2014 04:25
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I don't know who the runner up was, but Russo was an improvement from Kevin Sullivan in 2000. WCW was unbearably dull.
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Apr 11, 2014 08:20
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UltimoDragonQuest posted:I don't know who the runner up was, but Russo was an improvement from Kevin Sullivan in 2000. WCW was unbearably dull. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUJzj4DXHYE Apologize to The Wall up there, brother.
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Apr 11, 2014 08:22
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It goes without saying that Spring Break-Out is immune to any criticism of WCW.
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Apr 11, 2014 08:30
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LvK posted:Honestly, I still say that hiring Russo had to have looked like a good move at the time. Keeping him onboard, though... As I mentioned before, hiring Russo the first time was seen as a good move in 1999 because a shake-up was badly needed. After Fingerpoke, WCW was terrible most of the time and unbelievably stale when it wasn't. I don't think there were any obvious criticisms of Russo back then because WWE's entire style was so mashed-up with Russo's that it was impossible to tell where McMahon's ideas ended and Russo's began. Then the crap began and Russo Hate was born. Bringing him back was dumb, the idea was Bischoff could balance him out but we all know that didn't happen and was foolish to begin with thinking that.
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Apr 11, 2014 23:53
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I just remembered this existed.
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Aug 1, 2014 05:34
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who made the merge?
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Aug 1, 2014 06:00
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I'm up for starting it again, at the time I kind of let it flop I was enjoying WCW a ton and there wasn't a ton of discussion going on about the picks, but I'll give it another go. Here's what we have left: Sting vs Black Scorpion Feud Begins with No Idea Who the Scorpion Is WCW fires Ric Flair while still WCW/NWA Champion WCW hires Bill Watts WCW and Mick Foley Part Ways Steve Austin Jobs to Jim Duggan in 10 seconds Ed Leslie Headlines Starrcade WCW Fires Steve Austin Hogan vs Giant: Monster Truck Sumo Brian Pillman Tricks Bischoff into Releasing Him The Uncensored 96 Doomsday Cage Match Hog Wild nWo Souled Out nWo Nitro Sting Doesn't Beat Hogan Clean at Starrcade 97 Bischoff suspends and sues Flair Bret Hart Becomes Hogan's Lackey Goldberg vs Hogan happens on free TV Jay Leno: Pro Wrestler Hogan vs Warrior Scott Hall's Alcoholism Becomes an Angle Halloween Havoc 98 Runs Late Judy Bagwell: Tag Team Champion Ric Flair's 1st Fake Heart Attack Angle Goldberg Loses Streak to Nash The 1/4/99 WCW Nitro Kevin Nash Becomes Booker Unmasking Rey Mysterio Jr. The Junkyard Invitational Signing Master P The White Hummer The KISS Demon Juventud Guerrera wins the IWGP Jr Title Via Tequila Bottle Shot Starrcade 99 Ends in a Montreal Screwjob Oklahoma Wins the Cruiserweight Title Letting the Radicalz Leave Bringing Russo Back David Arquette: WCW Champion Ric Flair's Second Heart Attack Sting vs Vampiro: Human Torch Match Goldberg Turns Heel The Russo/Hogan Worked Shoot Vince Russo: WCW Champion DON'T VOTE IN THIS THREAD! Vote in the other thread! http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3612733&pagenumber=8#lastpost MassRafTer fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 06:15
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Whoops, I'm going to repost my votes because I forgot there was a place to plead your case for them. Goldberg vs Hogan happens on free TV - Sure they could have built to a PPV and made HUGE loving MONEY, but with Hogan being half of that I doubt this match would have happened with the RIGHT ending without it. Part of what made this happen was because it was on free TV. Do you really think Hogan would've done the right thing on a big promoted PPV match? Hell no. Everything that happened after Goldberg won the title/EVERYTHING EVER ABOUT HULK HOGAN proves that. Goldberg Loses Streak to Nash - By itself it isn't necessarily bad. They just hosed up by both not having the next few months dedicated to Goldberg DESTROYING the NWO then winning his title back while and also doing the Fingerpoke of Doom to rub it in to anyone who was a Goldberg fan.
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Aug 1, 2014 10:07
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Big Coffin Hunter posted:Whoops, I'm going to repost my votes because I forgot there was a place to plead your case for them. I think Hogan would have probably done the job later on. Doing it on free TV required the promise he'd get to end the streak (which led to all sorts of fascinating machinations from Hogan and Nash) and Hogan got in Goldberg's ear more as time went on. I can see him agreeing to do that job on PPV with the same conditions. The way Goldberg lost the streak has always bothered me less than most people too. It was dumb, but it never sunk in how dumb because of the fingerpoke happening a week later. So I kind of agree there.
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Aug 1, 2014 22:54
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MassRafTer posted:I think Hogan would have probably done the job later on. Doing it on free TV required the promise he'd get to end the streak (which led to all sorts of fascinating machinations from Hogan and Nash) and Hogan got in Goldberg's ear more as time went on. I can see him agreeing to do that job on PPV with the same conditions. I will be the first to admit I'm very skeptical with anything involving Hulk Hogan so I'm not going to disagree it was a possibility, but I just can't help but think this was less than a year removed from the poo poo he pulled during Starcade 1997, which should have been the climax to the biggest feud in wrestling at the time with the most obvious ending that everyone who was watching was salivating for. It is really hard for me to think he would've done the right thing with Goldberg if they gave it more time.
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Aug 2, 2014 11:19
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quote:Signing Master P: 7 Mick Foley wins, Master P comes in second, both are eliminated!
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Aug 4, 2014 01:43
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