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wormil posted:Saving Bob is legit. But Raylan never wanted a relationship with Winona. He spent the entire series making excuses not to have a relationship with her and even after moving to Floriday, she ended up with another man. And, not shooting Boyd was not character development -- Raylan could not justify shooting and could not get away clean with murder without also killing Ava. I am not saying that Raylan would murder Boyd, pre-final season Raylan definitely wouldn't. Ava wouldn't have loving cared if Raylan shot Boyd. She might use it as leverage against Raylan to let her go or get her a deal, but she's clearly terrified of Boyd being out there in the world.
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Apr 29, 2015 19:34
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Ava wouldn't have loving cared if Raylan shot Boyd. She might use it as leverage against Raylan to let her go or get her a deal, but she's clearly terrified of Boyd being out there in the world. Ava was such a strange character. At the start of the series, she's kind of sympathetic, but as it goes on, it becomes clear that A) She only cares about herself, and B) she is really terrible at planning or thinking things through. Almost every choice she makes is poorly informed or poorly thought out or both.
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Apr 29, 2015 20:08
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Snak posted:Ava was such a strange character. At the start of the series, she's kind of sympathetic, but as it goes on, it becomes clear that A) She only cares about herself, and B) she is really terrible at planning or thinking things through. Almost every choice she makes is poorly informed or poorly thought out or both. It sort of makes sense. She had an abusive husband who was in one of the most powerful Harlan families. After she finally retaliated against him, she was in fear of her life. Raylan comes back, she thinks she found a man she can trust, but it becomes clear that she really can't due to the complications of his job and his personality. She finally comes around on a partially reformed Boyd, learns to trust him, but he goes back to his old ways. Things get less clear cut around this point (I also happen to start liking her more here). Even though she knows she's entering a life of trouble once again, she's decided Boyd's not like his brother or his father, and decides to throw her lot in with his. Her motivations on that are less clear, but people lie to themselves a lot more for less. Hell, Boyd's definitely got some more appealing qualities than the rest of his family, and his love seems genuine enough. That's all fine until things go south, Ava gets locked up, and Boyd can't help her for poo poo. After being in prison, Ava doesn't really trust anyone, especially after Boyd thought leaving her to rot was starting to sound like a fine idea. Raylan couldn't help her either, until she could be used against Boyd. So she decides gently caress them, gently caress Harlan, I need to get out of here and get by on my own. So once she hears about the money, she realizes that could achieve her goals pretty handedly. Did she always mean to betray Boyd? I'm not quite sure. Maybe she thought she could slip away from Boyd with a tidy sum of it later, maybe part of her still wanted to believe they could have a future. I figure she always planned to leave Raylan high and dry, it was just a matter of when and how to lose him. In the end though, with a gun in her hand and a truck bed full of money, she knew this was her best chance. I still find her pretty relatable. All she was looking for was a partner to keep her safe in outlaw country and help her make ends meet. Instead, she was abused, she was manipulated, and she was abandoned by all the people she cared about. Add the trauma she went through in prison and I imagine a lot of people would turn out pretty cutthroat. I agree she also doesn't think things through too well, but a lot of the time she's just trying to keep her head above water. Pretty much every criminal in Harlan has a grand scheme, until reality throws a wrench in the works. Ava doesn't even get much time to plan, she's got to think on her feet.
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Apr 29, 2015 20:36
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Yeah, it's pretty realistic and well-written, but again, not the norm for television. Like she reminds me of the protagonist in Weeds, except in that show we are supposed to root for her? I don't think she always planned to betray Boyd. I think she was being honest at the end when she said she did what she thought he would do in that situation. I think that she was never really cut out to be an outlaw, but she spent enough time with them that she started thinking like one and that was basically her downfall. Kind of what Raylan managed to avoid in the end.
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Apr 29, 2015 20:50
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Ava wouldn't have loving cared if Raylan shot Boyd. She might use it as leverage against Raylan to let her go or get her a deal, but she's clearly terrified of Boyd being out there in the world. Hello Ava, I'm DA Vasquez, the man who decides whether you go back to prison and by the way Raylan Givens has made my job hell and I would very much like to send him to prison instead of you. Now tell me in your own words if Raylan was acting in self defense when he
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Apr 29, 2015 21:32
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Man, people really hate Vasquez in this thread...
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Apr 29, 2015 21:43
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wormil posted:Hello Ava, I'm DA Vasquez, the man who decides whether you go back to prison and by the way Raylan Givens has made my job hell and I would very much like to send him to prison instead of you. Now tell me in your own words if Raylan was acting in self defense when he Oh, the same DA that gave me the poo poo deal where I was constantly pressured to magically show up with Boyd in a cage every day of every week, or else be threatened to return to prison? Yeah I trust you. Vasquez would not have been able to give her a deal she'd accept anyway, she was a pretty huge fugitive.
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Apr 29, 2015 21:43
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Snak posted:Man, people really hate Vasquez in this thread... It's weird, as I read the thread, I also find it funny that a guy that wants to put the protagonist in jail isn't well liked. Wanna PM each other about it?
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Apr 29, 2015 21:55
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I just feel like Vasquez's action are pretty justified, and it's a symptom of Raylan's failure to actually play by the rules. Vasquez doesn't get to watch the show. He can't see how Raylan is trying to do the right thing even if he refuses to stay on the reservation. And Raylan refuses to communicate properly or even pretend to follow protocol. It's like a reminder to the viewer that people who "are clearly bad guys" can have much more sympathetic reasons for their actions. Also by time all of this is happening, Ava IS A MURDERER. So yes I'm not surprised that sane people think Raylan might be a bad guy since he is apparently aiding and abbetting the escape of a murderer who he used to sleep with who just stole a bunch of money. From the man Raylan previously shot in Ava's dining room.
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Apr 29, 2015 22:30
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Did they even mention what Vasquez had on Ava in the first place? IIRC, the only thing keeping her in prison last season was the guard who claimed she stabbed him, and they made it pretty clear he recanted.
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Apr 29, 2015 22:57
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JohnSherman posted:Did they even mention what Vasquez had on Ava in the first place? IIRC, the only thing keeping her in prison last season was the guard who claimed she stabbed him, and they made it pretty clear he recanted. Obstruction, something? I got nothing.
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Apr 29, 2015 23:09
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yeah actually I forgot all that. I have no idea.
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Apr 29, 2015 23:18
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She got caught with a bunch of drugs and was framed to go to big girl prison by shithead mcstabshimself. FBI made the guy recant so she could be the informant cause it gave her a reason to get out.
Invalid Validation fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Apr 29, 2015 |
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Apr 29, 2015 23:28
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Oh, the same DA that gave me the poo poo deal where I was constantly pressured to magically show up with Boyd in a cage every day of every week, or else be threatened to return to prison? Yeah I trust you. Yes, that Da. The one who decides whether Ava goes back to prison. There was never anything wrong with the deal, Ava was just half assing the whole time because she couldn't pick a team.
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Apr 30, 2015 01:23
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Invalid Validation posted:She got caught with a bunch of drugs and was framed to go to big girl prison by shithead mcstabshimself. FBI made the guy recant so she could be the informant cause it gave her a reason to get out. ...But he recanted. Kind of hard to throw your informant back in prison when she didn't commit the crime you're hanging over her head.
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Apr 30, 2015 01:34
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JohnSherman posted:...But he recanted. Kind of hard to throw your informant back in prison when she didn't commit the crime you're hanging over her head. She had original crimes she committed to land her in the harlan lock up in the first place, where creepy mc weirdo stabbed her and framed her. The terms of her deal may have precluded from anything but servivng out the rest of her sentence in a hard core prison full of bitches who wanna chop her up.
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Apr 30, 2015 02:16
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SpookyLizard posted:She had original crimes she committed to land her in the harlan lock up in the first place, where creepy mc weirdo stabbed her and framed her. The terms of her deal may have precluded from anything but servivng out the rest of her sentence in a hard core prison full of bitches who wanna chop her up. Boyd's actions in Season 5 cleared her of those charges and she was set to be released the day Creepy McWeirdo stabbed himself.
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Apr 30, 2015 02:18
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Oh. I think I just remembered. Creepy McWierdo didn't actually recant. That was the cover they used to tell Boyd why she was out so she could inform on him. Then they send Wynn and Mikey to make sure everything's on the up and up, and Rachel makes sure that he lies to them. I have no idea of the legality of any of this, but they specifically got Ava out to inform on Boyd, not because she was found innocent.
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Apr 30, 2015 02:33
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Snak posted:Oh. I think I just remembered. Creepy McWierdo didn't actually recant. That was the cover they used to tell Boyd why she was out so she could inform on him. Then they send Wynn and Mikey to make sure everything's on the up and up, and Rachel makes sure that he lies to them. I have no idea of the legality of any of this, but they specifically got Ava out to inform on Boyd, not because she was found innocent. This was it.
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Apr 30, 2015 02:35
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I was under the impression the Marshals were playing shenanigans with creepy prison guard and that's why they kept him in a motel. Maybe I missed something but the Ava storyline didn't make sense to me all season.
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Apr 30, 2015 02:36
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The actual story arc of what Ava was up to while she was in prison was the worst part of this show. It fell completely flat and went nowhere. And it hammered home how incompetent Ava is. But I guess that gave her a really good reason to think she wouldn't make it if she went back.
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Apr 30, 2015 02:42
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wormil posted:I was under the impression the Marshals were playing shenanigans with creepy prison guard and that's why they kept him in a motel. Maybe I missed something but the Ava storyline didn't make sense to me all season. They didn't keep him in a motel. They just knew he visited hookers there.
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Apr 30, 2015 04:15
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Jeremy Davies is in the new miniseries Texas Rising looking very Dickie Bennett.
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May 20, 2015 01:02
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Armyman25 posted:Jeremy Davies is in the new miniseries Texas Rising looking very Dickie Bennett. I think you mean looking very Jeremy Davies.
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May 20, 2015 01:04
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Snak posted:The actual story arc of what Ava was up to while she was in prison was the worst part of this show. It fell completely flat and went nowhere. And it hammered home how incompetent Ava is. But I guess that gave her a really good reason to think she wouldn't make it if she went back. Legal threats & maneuvering were this show's version of technobabble used for easy plot development. Ava's storyline was the worst cuz it relied the most on it and had to stretch those nonsensical motivators out for over a season going.
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May 20, 2015 01:38
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bobkatt013 posted:I think you mean looking very Jeremy Davies. I first saw him in Saving Private Ryan. I may have to recalibrate my default Jeremy Davies expectations. Holy poo poo, I had no idea that he had played Charles Manson in an TV adaptation of Helter Skelter. 
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May 20, 2015 05:00
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Armyman25 posted:I first saw him in Saving Private Ryan. I may have to recalibrate my default Jeremy Davies expectations. See also him in Lost
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May 20, 2015 05:01
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Jeremt Davies always plays the same guy, unintelligible, crazy, skittish
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May 20, 2015 08:24
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And knocks it out of the park every time. He ranges from good to spectacular every time I see him in something, and holy poo poo that's some perfect Charles Manson casting.
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May 20, 2015 20:11
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savinhill posted:Legal threats & maneuvering were this show's version of technobabble used for easy plot development. Ava's storyline was the worst cuz it relied the most on it and had to stretch those nonsensical motivators out for over a season going. I am now imagining that the entire Ava prison storyline was simply lampooning Sons of Anarchy, since that's what that entire show is like, but it's the main plot and we're supposed to care.
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May 21, 2015 04:21
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