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After being away from the forums for months, this is what I come back with?! As the thread title might suggest, I came from an abusive background. This thread was inspired by me recently having the impulse to tell a person in my life about what had happened to me, but it does not exactly drop easily into conversation. “Hey there, want to hear about the time I was molested?!” Even when you completely trust and love the person in question and want to tell them about it, speaking up can be extremely difficult. Thinking about how I am going to tell them and what I'm going to say requires me to do a lot of thinking through the subject of what happened to me. Since my thoughts are going in that direction anyway, I thought I might do something constructive with it, and give someone the chance to benefit or learn from my experiences. My story involves suffering roughly 10-15 years (depending on how you measure it; there's not clear beginnings and ends) of abuse, including domestic violence with physical and psychological abuse. There was also a one-time event of sexual abuse by an older woman when a stranger decided I was a very handsome young (8 years old) boy and she would not take no for an answer. As I grew up, I also experienced domestic violence from ex-girlfriends, and generally had trouble forming healthy relationships. Scope of this thread: My plan is to use some of my experiences as case-studies to help people learn about the psychological effects of abuse from someone who has lived it, and hopefully something can be learned from my process of recovery. And I want a topic I can mostly talk about from experience rather than having to do too much in the way of research. Occasionally I will relate my experiences to some outside source to provide context, but I do not want this thread to be one where I have to backup everything. For the record, abuse is a very personal thing, so I am not going to make any effort to cover this from every angle or from all perspectives. I don't want this to become the thread on the larger topic, or to stop someone else from making a similar topic of their own. For instance, for me there were multiple abusers – some male and some female, and I was more aware of the abuse and violence from other men, but when I got away from the situation, it was the absence of abuse from the female abuser that made the most difference (honestly I would say 80-90% of the abuse came from her). And I wasn't aware until I was gone, because I had serious trouble recognising her behaviour as abuse. It was just normal to me. Working through those layers of self-deception is a major part of my experiences. That will make my story very different to someone else's. Some possible ideas for things to ask me about : Abused-becomes-abuser, how/why it can happen (the thought processes behind it), and escaping it. Forgiveness and can/should you still have contact with someone who mistreated you (generally no, but I can discuss some of the obstacles involved). Interpreting the abuse differently based on whether the abuser was male or female. Romantic chivalry and why it's a bad thing. Self-destructiveness, living in fear, and the psychological spiral (aka: how I was also damaging myself). Reactions to speaking about the abuse. How media portrayal XYZ compares with my experiences. Making excuses for abusers. Wrestling with mysogyny. Things I would rather avoid talking about : Political beliefs; I understand that dealing with serious issues like this can overlap with political positions quite a lot, but I would prefer us to keep that aspect of things to a minimum and not end up with a debate. Political debate is deliberately outside the scope of this thread. Exactly who in the family was abusive; anyone who was abusive who I still have contact with DID get help, so naming-and-shaming them now would not be of any benefit. I do believe very strongly in redemption, and in my mind the person I want revenge on no longer exists (because they became someone else). I may add more to this section as I think of things, but generally feel free to ask, and I'll say if I'm not willing to answer something. Anyway, thanks for reading through this. I hope I can give helpful answers to your questions. Railtus fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 11:04
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This is a good idea for a thread op. If it benefits you to talk about it and organize your thoughts/feelings, then its definitely worth it. I am curious as to how you previously or currently stay in contact with your abuser. I personally was not abused sexually growing up, but did visit a family member once and a while who abused my father. I am not able to ask my father as he didn't share that part of his life with me while he was alive and I'm curious about your perspective. If you do have kids do you have them interact with your abuser at all?
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Sep 8, 2015 15:52
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Based on your experience, is there anything you think society should do to further protect children from abuse? Is there anyone someone could have done, that they didn't do, that could have prevented the abuse you suffered?
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Sep 8, 2015 16:28
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What sort of lasting effects do you find the most hindering?
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Sep 8, 2015 21:45
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I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on "romantic chivalry and why it's a bad thing". I assume this feeling on your part must tie in, in some way, to your experiences being abused. How did your experiences lead you to this conclusion? Also, what does romantic chivalry mean to you? When I think of chivalry I think of stuff like a guy opening a door for a girl, or maybe giving up his seat on the subway, and just altogether acting honorably and respectfully toward a woman. I'm thinking you may have something else in mind.
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Sep 9, 2015 01:21
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FranklinDelanoBluth posted:This is a good idea for a thread op. If it benefits you to talk about it and organize your thoughts/feelings, then its definitely worth it. Thanks for the support.  Sorry to hear about your father. It is the kind of thing that can very easily be put off and not talked about until it is too late. I don't have kids yet, but I can imagine talking about it could be even more difficult with your children because it could feel, in some way, like exposing them to that. It can be a protective impulse behind the silence.Currently, my contact with those who abused me is sporadic, going weeks without seeing them sometimes. The distance makes it easier to erect boundaries. I usually stay on university campus, so I don't have a permanent address, meaning sometimes I do end up staying over there when it's convenient. But I make drat sure never to let it be taken for granted that I will be staying there, I always have a Plan B of where else to go. This part about not taking my presence for granted is an essential part in my opinion. Things only started changing because I left, and because there were consequences for it. Very few people think of themselves as abusers, so it's easy to dismiss complaints as “just whining” when they're not backed up with action (which ties into gaslighting, some of the denial can be about maintaining the delusion of being a decent human being). On top of that, there were consequences; we are able to have a much healthier relationship because I can leave and therefore I don't have to put up with things that I endured before. A large part of this is realising that I don't owe them contact. And for them, contact with me is conditional upon recognising that. Essentially, when there's no expectation of living under the same roof as them, the moment I find something uncomfortably aggressive I can go. And it is amazing how rarely they behave in any way aggressively towards me. :P But on not owing them contact, this is important because I am able to weigh the relationship in terms of my benefit. If I did have children… I don't know. To a degree it would be a non-issue, because I plan on moving to the USA to be with my partner, and those who abused me live in the UK. Since then, I have seen the people involved with other children, and they're surprisingly really good with them. I think it's teenagers that they're terrible with. :P Or maybe they grew up and are simply much mature than they were 10-20 years ago. On a rational level, I actually believe they could be trusted in the short term with children (so they'd be excellent on the weekend or such). But if/when I have children, I expect to be more protective than is entirely rational. PT6A posted:Based on your experience, is there anything you think society should do to further protect children from abuse? Is there anyone someone could have done, that they didn't do, that could have prevented the abuse you suffered? My answer here might be a little guarded because it is on the edge of covering politics, but please don't think I'm offended by the question. Frankly, and there's no way I know to tap-dance around the subject, I think gender double-standards are a HUGE factor. Male-perpetrated abuse against me always depended on an immediate physical advantage, and in some ways was easier to deal with. I was able to get intervention from others far more easily, since people recognised the violence as violence. I was able to call the police and get them to respond seriously. And the idea of me fighting back is kind of understood. There's far less shame involved. People aren't thinking less of me for being attacked, and people aren't thinking less of me for fighting back. Both of the guys who had physically abused me ended up with injuries of their own. At no point was there any idea that I might deserve it. It was easy to recognise that the abuse was wrong and that it was abuse, because our image of an abuser is a man. The female-perpetrated abuse was far less recognisable. I originally ran away from home because of a man who beat me up, even though over 80% of the abuse I went through was from a woman in the home; because I had been so conditioned into accepting her rages, her mood swings, and so on. There was this idea that it was my job to make her happy. There was this mix of cultural messages including “women are innocent” (= women never behave badly) and “women are emotional” (= you just have to accept that she's angry over something, you shouldn't expect self-control from her) which together adds up to a belief that it was OK for her to treat me in ways that we would consider monstrous from a man. I knew I didn't like how she treated me, but I didn't see it for what it was. To a degree I saw it as her right to hit me. It didn't help that she essentially indoctrinated me with the idea that people needed to yell at each other, something I never practised, but still absorbed. On top of that, there was far more deliberate cruelty. The male-perpetrated physical abuse was a short series of blows, it hurt, but it didn't continue past the first several blows. The female-perpetrated physical abuse was prolonged beatings, with me being chased around the house or on the street or wherever else and she would hit and hit and hit and hit and hit and hit and hit for 20+ minutes at a time. I remember covering up to stop her blows (hands on head, elbows tucked in to shield my body) and she would jab underneath at my belly, sticking out a knuckle so the jabs would hurt more on soft tissue without her having to risk bruising a fist. And she would pace herself, so she didn't get tired out from continuously hitting me. I can't imagine wanting to do that to anybody. But I still feel like if she broke a nail giving me those beatings that I would be seen as the villain. The sexual abuse from a stranger was only a risk for me because it was taboo to refuse a woman – the woman in question was probably in her 70s, no physical threat to me at all. But she found me handsome and how dare I reject her? Overall, I think society should stop being so wilfully blind to aggression committed by women. There's these mixed messages that simultaneously present female-perpetrated violence as both impossible (men are the abusive ones, ya know?) and normal (oh she gets angry sometimes), as though the individual in question committing the violence is somehow not responsible for it. The funny thing is it makes excuses while being horribly misogynistic at the same time – as though it's unreasonable to expect better from her. I am actually nervous about posting all that, because I expect there to be some kind of backlash calling me a man-child or man-baby or so on. So if someone wants to say I have issues with women, the answer is: Yes, wouldn't you? Those issues do not heal if they are swept under the rug, so it's important for these issues to not be a dirty secret and not to have shame heaped on them. (the pre-emptive defence isn't aimed at you PT6A, it's just in general). Nation posted:What sort of lasting effects do you find the most hindering? It varies. In the past, issues with women made me especially vulnerable to more abuse, and made me desperate for female approval. I was searching for an emotionally corrective experience, which is code for “form a relationship with a guano crazy lady so that she will not act like someone who is guano crazy” (and being off-putting to people who aren't guano crazy). I'll elaborate further on that in my reply to January. These days, I have procrastination issues and flashbacks on. Essentially I would distract myself to avoid dealing with issues. The flashbacks can have me seething for hours, reliving times when I was assaulted or mistreated or a similar event. Usually it's unrelated to what I'm actually angry about, but I find myself daydreaming/acting-out stuff I wish had done at the time (usually involving biting digits off the person in question). January posted:I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on "romantic chivalry and why it's a bad thing". I assume this feeling on your part must tie in, in some way, to your experiences being abused. How did your experiences lead you to this conclusion? Your idea of chivalry matches up with mine on the superficial level, although mine goes a bit further. At first, the abuse made me chivalrous to a fault – because I was conditioned to believe that a woman's happiness is my responsibility, and because I was accustomed to emotionally unstable women who blamed all their problems elsewhere, and thus needed rescuing. My primary abuser saw herself as the victim, so I had this desire to rescue a woman from all her problems. And oh yes, never hold her responsible for anything, which would mean indulging mood swings or temper tantrums and so on. A psychologically healthy woman will not need such rescuing, and essentially indulging her as if she was a child will be very off-putting (because she's a mature and intelligent adult, and mature and intelligent adults do not tend to like being treated like children). Someone swooping in to save her problems will not appeal to someone who solves their own problems, instead it only appeals to those who would rather wait for someone else to solve problems for them. Recovering is part of what made me anti-chivalry. A lot of that is thanks to my girlfriend (we started off as friends for maybe 2-3 years before we started dating), who consistently held herself to standards, did not expect special treatment, and was patient in explaining some of the reasons why chivalrous behaviour was not exactly flattering. I did not understand at first, but I respected her wishes and tried to tone down some of those ideas for her benefit, at least with her. Eventually I started to understand that chivalry was essentially holding women to lowered expectations, and you can't truly respect someone if you feel a need to lower the bar for them. Ironically, I think I'm now more opposed to traditional gender roles than she is. :P Overall, the problems I had were chivalry could be summed up in 2 ways: 1 – it was having relationships with idols on a pedestal rather than with the women themselves. 2 – if you (metaphorically speaking) present yourself as someone who would give up a seat on a lifeboat, you'll only be of interest to people who would take that seat and leave you to drown. Nowadays, I still hold doors open, though for anyone rather than for women specifically. I give up my seat on the subway if someone has been carrying stuff, is obviously tired, or older, or pregnant (if there's a real reason they need it more than I). I try to act honourably and respectfully towards everybody. I'm still not perfect at taking gender out of the equation, but I aim for kindness rather than chivalry in my daily life. I do hold doors open for my girlfriend when we're in the same country, because I love her and it's nice to do, she'll also get the next door for me. :P
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Sep 9, 2015 04:07
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Thanks for sharing, Do you find it helpful to share like this? Have you ever had memory problems? (I have such a jumbled, blacked-out, crazy memory of age 4-15) I have always found it impossible to share, granted what I have to say is horrific and far beyond imagination, but sharing with a partner and having them break your trust I have found to be crippling. Do you share with your partner(s)? How long do you wait? Does this gently caress things up for you? Its pretty hard for me to hide as im covered in scars but i tell people it was an accident even got a story i made up and reel off, this irks me a lot, I want to tell people the truth but honestly people treat you so differently. So yea props to you, stay strong. Yea i started my post with thanks for sharing, like this is a loving group therapy session, im sorry it was not intentional.
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Sep 9, 2015 12:28
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Nation posted:Thanks for sharing, Do you find it helpful to share like this? Have you ever had memory problems? (I have such a jumbled, blacked-out, crazy memory of age 4-15) You're welcome. Thank you for your kind words. Also, don't apologise for saying something that sounds like a group therapy session (I've never actually been to one) – if you find this thread useful or helpful then that alone makes this thread worthwhile. Helpful to share: Sometimes, but not always. Usually I do not feel a need to share, although normally I can share at least the broad strokes quite easily. I'm glad I am able to speak up because it means it doesn't cost me anything to show someone such as yourself that you're not alone, and someone unfamiliar with the subject can learn something from it that might make them react better if the matter comes up in future. Memory issues: Not that I recall… Giving the matter more thought, there's some. Mostly I cannot be sure of when things happened; I remember the events themselves vividly, but have to guess how old I was at the time. On the other hand, I'm bad at that in general so it might not be related to abuse or trauma. Only within the last few months have I started thinking about the time I was sexually assaulted. I think it took a long time for me to acknowledge it. At the time I thought I was bothered for different reasons (of an “she's old! Ew!” nature), but that's probably because I was kid trying to make sense of something I did not understand at the time. Share with partner: My partner and I have been together over 7 years now, and she was aware of most of it before we got together, so it's been a long time since I needed to think about what I would tell a partner or when. An ex did break my trust, used something I told her about as a weapon after we broke up, but this ex was also violent when we were together. That particular attack lost it's power because I realised there was no truth to it, and that she would say absolutely anything if she thought it would hurt me. Unfortunately, the course I was on (Prince's Trust) and the course-leaders essentially enabled her behaviour, and I had to put up with a sustained campaign of bullying every day for 2 months, but the damage wasn't caused by anything I shared with her. Generally though, I don't actively announce what has happened to me, but it's no secret either. Sometimes it comes up in conversation – I lived away from home before university, people ask about that and I explain I ran away from home because of abuse. I leave out the details because it's not good table conversation, but I don't feel a need to hide it from anyone. I've never noticed anyone treat me differently after finding out, but if someone was going to treat me differently because of it I would rather it happened before I've invested into a friendship with that person.
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Sep 9, 2015 17:31
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Railtus posted:My answer here might be a little guarded because it is on the edge of covering politics, but please don't think I'm offended by the question. This isn't an answer that I expected, but it actually makes a lot of sense. Too often, discussions about these problems are taken over by misogynists, so I think it's a big problem that gets ignored, and you seem to be aware that the double standard is actually borne of misogyny itself rather than some sort of female supremacy, so I don't think your attitude is unhealthy or childish at all. Thank you for the thoughtful response. One thing that stood out in particularly is this bit: quote:The sexual abuse from a stranger was only a risk for me because it was taboo to refuse a woman – the woman in question was probably in her 70s, no physical threat to me at all. But she found me handsome and how dare I reject her? Can you even imagine the reaction people would have if the abuser were male?
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Sep 9, 2015 17:46
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PT6A posted:This isn't an answer that I expected, but it actually makes a lot of sense. Too often, discussions about these problems are taken over by misogynists, so I think it's a big problem that gets ignored, and you seem to be aware that the double standard is actually borne of misogyny itself rather than some sort of female supremacy, so I don't think your attitude is unhealthy or childish at all. Thank you for the thoughtful response. You're welcome. I appreciate you taking an interest. I think the double-standard is borne more from a denial of female agency rather than misogyny, although there's obviously considerable overlap, but the distinction can be pretty important as many of the aspects of my situation seem to stem from the “women are wonderful” effect. Putting women on a pedestal is certainly patronising and unhealthy, and I've ranted already about how horrible that is. I think it is helpful to distinguish between favouritism and misogyny in order to fully appreciate the horrible concoction that ensues. Especially because, in my situation, these patronising cultural narratives essentially gave my primary abuser a lot of power and even authority – it was my job (or our job if you include the other men/boys in the house, I got the worst of the abuse but there was plenty to go around) to appease her, she could never be criticised or judged for anything she did, and it was taboo for anyone else to interfere with her even if she was giving me an extended beating in front of them. That's not even paternalism, which at least places well-meaning restrictions on the person being patronised, this is just indulgent. Indulgence is bad certainly, but I would strongly hesitate to equate indulgence with hate, since she had a virtually dictatorial power over the family because of it. Also, I do think it bears mention, that from my position of being on the receiving end of the abuse it certainly looked more like some sort of female supremacy at the time. Of course an inside view is only part of the picture as well, but as with recognising the components that are made of misogyny, the jigsaw's not complete without it. On this subject, I do think misogyny and how it can develop is a possible area for exploration in this thread. I feel like I have a lot of insights into some of the thought processes and self-destructive cycles that can result in misogynistic beliefs/attitudes. Or why the groups discussing this specific variety of abuse so often come across as so vitriolic, and where a great deal of the venom is coming from. ... As for your other question, I imagine the reaction would involve that specific abuser swiftly murdered? :P In all seriousness, I've never tried imagining how people might react before. After a short attempt, I can't imagine the same situation at all; I cannot imagine a strange older man doing the same thing, although actually I can't imagine anyone else behaving that way. I can remember what happened, but I can't even visualise changing details.
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Sep 9, 2015 22:14
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Good stuff so far, OP. In the future, could you break your responses into smaller posts instead of megaposts? Could you give us some codenames for the people involved? What sort of things would trigger an event?
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Sep 10, 2015 05:46
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peanut posted:Good stuff so far, OP. In the future, could you break your responses into smaller posts instead of megaposts? Thank you. Honestly, megaposts will be somewhat unavoidable. Since this is a very complex and emotionally charged issues, short statements can be very easy to take the wrong way, especially in text form. To be diplomatic on this will require some level of wordiness. I could try responding to only 1-2 questions/quotes at a time per post? I might end up double-posting a lot but would that help? Code-names for now: -Cersei for the primary abuser. -Stranger/Creeper for the one who decided I was handsome. -Favourite for the one Cersei seemed to prefer. -Bull for one of the older guys who appeared later on. -Powerless for someone who should have protected me but didn't. By events do you mean triggering the abuse? To a degree it was always unpredictable. An important part of me getting past the abuse was recognising that it was not about me, and that basically I was incidental or an acceptable target for people who to varying degrees seriously believed that lashing out at loved ones was a valid way of dealing with stress. For instance, before I was in the picture, Cersei claimed with Favourite “He was there for me to shout at because I had no one else for me to shout at.” Like she seriously thought she needed a target for abuse. Another creepy motto she had is “No one will ever love you like I do, no one will ever shout at you like I do.” One example is after Cersei had been yelling at Powerless, she'd then start targeting me for “scowling.” Of course denying it only got me in further trouble for “accusing her of imagining it.” Part of the issue was gaslighting, usually to present herself as the injured party, so anything that might have appeared as a cause/trigger was more than likely made up. I can elaborate further but it would be a lot of speculation.
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Sep 10, 2015 12:21
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What sort of things have helped you deal with the abuse in a healthy/positive way, both during and after the abuse? (I know you've already mentioned talking with your finacee and setting boundaries.) If you've spoken with mental health professionals, was borderline personality disorder ever brought up in relation to "Cersei"? I'm not attempting to internet-diagnose anyone, but some of what you wrote sounds like a bad case of that. e: I want to be clear, I have no background in psychology or anything. I'm just curious because I know someone who had a milder case of borderline. (They actually don't have borderline anymore, but I'm not sure how they managed that since we weren't in contact at the time.) Absolute Lithops fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 02:50
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Absolute Lithops posted:What sort of things have helped you deal with the abuse in a healthy/positive way, both during and after the abuse? (I know you've already mentioned talking with your finacee and setting boundaries.) Recognition was the big thing that helped, basically applying the scientific method about behaviour. If I change my actions, and the behaviour remains abusive, then I know my actions are not causing the abusive behaviour. This was how I realised it wasn't to do with me. When I went back to college part-time (in England college and university are not the same things), I was not there as much – I could quite literally go in for class and leave afterwards, meaning I was far less dependent on the social atmosphere. This helped to at least reduce the codependency issues I had surrounding women. There were other things in my life, so less of a void I had to fill. I was helping other people in the youth hostel where I lived, I volunteered at a charity shop, I was training ju-jitsu. I was far more able to live for me. I also met my best friend at the youth hostel. Essentially I got other things in my life, that were not so much distractions as freedoms. It meant my life did not have to revolve around someone else. Essentially I was able to build up a self-image that did not depend on someone else's approval. Doing training courses with the army took somehow boosted my confidence vastly within a week. I still don't know how they managed it, but it worked wonderfully. The teamwork and participation might be what helped me emerge from my shell. Another thing that was very helpful for me was to indulge in some good old-fashioned victim-blaming, or more accurately, recognising my power in certain situations: for a lot of the abuse, I stayed there to take it, as though walking away would be some kind of admission of defeat. Recognising that I don't have to stick around for a confrontation, and I can walk out or avoid the person who is treating me badly does wonders. More generally, recognising that I don't have to do a lot of things or that I don't have to interact with someone is pretty helpful. This is probably just an extension of setting boundries. I don't remember any diagnoses of Cersei coming up when I spoke to counsellors. I think when I was speaking to them, I was still kind of guarded on the subject (I had a bad experience with Social Services, which amounted to when they get involved they spoke to everybody else before speaking to me, and so by the time I saw them I had been thoroughly coached to give certain answers – I am kind of ashamed of how I let down someone who was trying to protect me, but at the same time I feel it was mishandled horribly). Anyway, I did receive a lot of help, some involving hypnotherapy, and EFT (Emotional Freedom Therapy), with appropriate pressure points (that I now seldom remember to use…) but I don't remember discussing her in any detail. Borderline personality disorder would certainly be plausible for Cersei, she certainly has borderline traits. To be totally honest, the answer wouldn't change anything for me on a personal level. As a general advice to anyone in a similar situation, if you're wondering if someone has BPD, that's a big sign that their behaviours are unacceptable regardless of whether they do or do not have that specific mental illness = get out and protect yourself regardless.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:21
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Shall we talk about victim becomes abuser? I have always wondered about this one, it seems such a strange concept but its a strange fact. I know I put a lot of pressure on those around me (or at least, lets say they feel pressured or forced into accepting me being distant or being in proximity to a lot of anger, confusion any number of things that nobody can really help you through) This isn't abuse of course but its definitely difficult to have a sort of normal relationship at times, panic, anger, trust all become amplified and I can really understand how it could turn into such a one-way street that it could strain to almost an abuse of your loved one. That would be almost what you could call emotional abuse, but obviously someone who has suffered abuse can have any number of anxiety disorders, panic attacks, fits of anger or wakes up screaming at night. Its so difficult of course to deal with these things that are perhaps unavoidable. Many relationships, especially when you are young are already highly emotionally charged with the addition of lifestyle (drugs and alcohol) that it can really tip the scales. - I hope this makes sense? (Drugs and alcohol abuse is a huge topic too) I think awareness of yourself and your actions are so important and noticing how you are affecting the ones you love can help to give you perspective, maybe save yourself a lot of pain in the end.
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Sep 12, 2015 13:11
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Nation posted:Shall we talk about victim becomes abuser? Sure! (that sounded far too cheerful…) Your perspective is one I had never considered before, so thank you for your insight. Dealing with issues can be hard on those close to you, especially if they feel a sense of obligation that essentially guilts them into it. Self-awareness is definitely a good answer, and the ability to communicate with your loved one when an episode is happening up-front so they don't take it personally, or at least to shield them from the effects as best they can – I'm high functioning autistic so I get overwhelmed by people on occasion, so I have needed to just spend a few hours with a book to calm my nerves. Drugs and alcohol can become a vicious cycle as well. People use to dull the pain, and when they use they lack the inhibitions or self-control to keep those destructive impulses in check. So yes, it absolutely makes sense. For me, the victim-becomes-abuser is more behaviourist in nature. That environment can very easily teach you that violence really is the answer. To give an example, Cersei chasing me around hitting me for 20 minutes at a time… I would dodge, block, and cover-up for 20 minutes and she would keep on hitting and hitting and hitting for 20 minutes. Then as I raised my arms to block, she's briefly unsure if I'm raising my arms to block or if I am finally reaching breaking point and hit back. And she hesitates, she pauses before coming back in. She's hitting me, and at one point instead of just covering up and absorbing the blows, I knock her arms aside. Again it halts her attack, at least for a time. Hold on, if she's afraid, does that mean she won't hurt me? Can you imagine anything more rewarding than that? The prospect of being safe, the prospect of not having to endure another assault. Shows of aggression are rewarded with the thing anyone suffering from abuse wants more than anything else; a stop to the abuse, at least temporarily. After that her use of physical violence declined. Thank God. There were still individual smacks or hits, but no prolonged beatings anymore. Even the smacks faded away eventually. Similarly, Bull & Favourite both stopped hitting me when I started turning vicious if attacked. They stopped being willing to beat me up anymore around the point they discovered I was willing to cripple or kill them if they tried; one still has the scar from the last time he attacked me and the other still has the limp from last time he threatened me (in fairness, he didn't actually attack me that time, he started yelling and pointing in my face – signs I have started to view as pre-attack indicators – and I used that delay to grab something for use in a sucker-punch rather than wait for him to attack me). That sucker-punch was the closest I have ever come to abusing anybody. At the time I told myself it was self-defence but in hindsight it was more of a pre-emptive strike, and I probably think he would not have actually attacked me that night. My judgement at the time was not entirely reliable, because I was so trained and conditioned to see an attack incoming. When your sense of safety and security relies on being too dangerous to safely target, that encourages a mindset that learns to prefer people being afraid of them, because their experience is very heavily kick-or-be-kicked. These people struggle to distinguish between criticism and attack, because for them most criticism comes during the attack, and is usually so unreliable that they've stopped listening to it. Instead they react not to the criticism itself, but to the attack they think is incoming. The logic goes something like, criticism = yelling. Yelling = attack incoming. Attack incoming = use force to put it down. On top of that, the time when not being attacked is not viewed as a period of safety, but as merely the time between attacks – they are waiting for the next (real or imagined) attack. And that is how you get someone who resorts to violence when questioned, because they are so used to interpreting things as attacks and have learned that the way to deal with an attack becomes force. Another factor is arbitrary punishment, meaning innocence is no defence, so there's little point in trying to be innocent of any wrongdoing because the punishment has little relationship with the behaviour. Also, when violence is used for punishment, the child learns that punishment comes not from right or wrong or anything like that, but from whomever is either biggest or strongest or the most aggressive. Railtus fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 18:45
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This is so complex and ultimately subjective, Its good to hear your insights thanks. Glad you learnt to fight back! Self defense is never a violence so I hope you don't think they made you violent, it is perfectly natural to defend yourself. Did you find much respite? I think its interesting what you said about arbitrary punishment - its easy to explain to people you got beat up a lot etc but hard to explain how you basically lived in a concentration camp with a private guard - everything you say and do will in all likelihood lead to more abuse. I answered the phone once and it didn't go down well. Myself I am constantly having to seek perspective and take a step back from my emotions or should i say thoughts, basically remind myself that despite my own frustration its OK to not be happy all the time and its fine to need to take time to deal with stuff. Drugs on the other hand - I have done a lot of drugs.
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Sep 15, 2015 17:33
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I do appreciate your support and compassion. For what it's worth, I don't see myself as being made violent – the incident with the sucker-punch was 8-9 years ago, and I've not been involved in any violence since – once outside the situation, I know that I was able to overcome it. Thank you for your kind words. A fundamental belief I have is nearly nobody wants to commit abuse, nobody wants to think of themselves as an abuser, so it can be easy and far more tempting to think of oneself as fighting back and just keep going with imagined threats. On principle I agree with you that self-defence is never violence, but I could see it as very easy for someone to commit violence and tell themselves it is self-defence. In some ways it can be part of the problem with treatment; they need to start by accepting what they did is something horrible. Similarly, Cersei gets really upset if/when I remind her of the abuse. The mental gymnastics people can do to avoid thinking of what they did as violent can be quite spectacular. How do you mean did I find much respite? I'm not quite sure I understand the question. The arbitrary punishment in my view is the worst part: it is spending every day trying to dodge a conflict, trying to manage other people's moods, trying to stay out of the way, going hungry because you're not sure it's safe to visit the kitchen. Not being able to predict exactly what will set an abuser off. Your description of it as a concentration camp is uncomfortably apt, because I remember a line from Schindler's List, “There is no set rules you can live by, you can say to yourself if I follow these rules I'll be safe.” Seeking perspective is overall a good reaction. Being able to recognise destructive or unhealthy thought patterns is progress along the road to recovery, and can occasionally include relapses where things are worse rather than better. I'm so sorry you've been through so much. One thing I remember that I found kind of helpful was from “Awaken the Giant Within”; the book mentioned emotion was often a call to action, and anger is not necessarily a bad thing, it can be the sign that something needs to be changed. (although I will say take self-help books cautiously, it can often be an industry that profits from telling people what they want to hear). Railtus fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Sep 15, 2015 |
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Sep 15, 2015 18:54
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It always left me wondering (as im sure you do) how much of an influence past trauma has on our future, i guess it would be easy to take an adult and see the influence of abuse but its difficult with a child because your formative years are formed by trauma. The respite question - I was just wondering if you found many ways to escape? Any good bits for you? Basically wanted to lead the conversation towards how you deal with happiness and good things in your life now? I like our private thread lol...
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Sep 18, 2015 18:28
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Railtus posted:Overall, the problems I had were chivalry could be summed up in 2 ways: Thanks for the explanation of your feelings about chivalry. It makes complete sense in context. Your kind personality was taken advantage of by selfish people instead of appreciated. I'm happy to hear that you're now in a romantic relationship of mutual respect. What stands out about you is you've been through so much, and yet you haven't let it embitter you or make you narrow-minded. My hat's off to you. I didn't catch if you mentioned what your profession is, but I bet you would be great in a role of counselor for victims of abuse.
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Sep 22, 2015 22:09
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Nation posted:It always left me wondering (as im sure you do) how much of an influence past trauma has on our future, i guess it would be easy to take an adult and see the influence of abuse but its difficult with a child because your formative years are formed by trauma. Hey there, sorry the delay. It was perhaps the most difficult time to answer that question. :P I have been dealing with some issues, which has led to sleeping troubles, and it made it kind of difficult to answer the question because I was in the wrong headspace. Usual ways I deal with things now is by using mature defence mechanisms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanisms To a degree I try to practise all of them, but as coping strategies and so on I tend to favour altruism & humour, since those the ones easiest to actively do. Generally I am good at recognising destructive or vindictive thoughts, and while I recognise them as unwelcome thoughts, I have stopped blaming myself for having them, so they do not become as much of a problem anymore. The trick is to avoid self-judgement or self-punishment. January posted:Thanks for the explanation of your feelings about chivalry. It makes complete sense in context. Your kind personality was taken advantage of by selfish people instead of appreciated. I'm happy to hear that you're now in a romantic relationship of mutual respect. You're welcome. I remember a family member, my great aunt, who was (is) very kind – every time I saw her when I was young, she'd give me money. The generosity was kind of uncomfortable for me because I felt a need to pay it back, to the point I ended up avoiding her. I imagine chivalry could actually have a similar effect. A sort of imposed kindness can be off-putting. And thank you. There is still some bitterness, I haven't been completely able to let go of the desire for revenge or forgive as fully as I would like - I still have moments when the impulse flares up, even with people I have forgiven in everyday life, but it becomes just an uncomfortable impulse I can put aside and live with. The trick is I recognise the bitterness as bitterness and not as something to filter my view of the world through. The ironic thing is when I used to love chivalry, I did a lot of research into knightly codes (hence my medieval history thread), and one of my favourite ideas is "do not be blinded by anger" - so there's no shame in being angry and in many cases it's entirely appropriate, and that's acceptable as long as I do not let it cloud my judgement. So an interesting aspect is having bitterness vs. being embittered. Currently I'm a student, planning on going into teaching (or university lecturing). Before that I considered the army, even did some training with them, but when my partner and I got together and since I need to cross the Atlantic to be with her, being a British soldier was no longer viable as a career path. I do try to be there to give advice to other people going through similar/related things, although this mostly happens online. Railtus fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 23:10
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Recently I have found I kind of miss this thread: I have been far too tempted to get involved in Youtube comments sections again and am kind of hoping to revive this thread to channel that impulse more constructively. I did learn a few things over the past couple of months that might be relevant/helpful/interesting (I'm hoping what works for me will work for somebody else, but honestly this time I'm more aware that I'm making this thread for my benefit). -Too much time alone is not good. My flashbacks were much worse in October/November, but I'm seeing people more often and making sure to have more contact or generally get out more (and be less feral…). It seems to do a lot to reduce those flashbacks. I wonder if it is because most of the abuse happened in the home, so bad associations with “home” might encourage them. Having other people around tends to reduce the flashbacks even if I am not the greatest people-person. -Intrusive thoughts are very irrational. The flashbacks sometimes result in me imagining the event going differently, usually in the sense of me doing something horrible to the attacker (and sometimes acting it out). Yet when I actually see the person, I cannot imagine hurting them at all. -I edited a few past answers that I feel were rushed. -There has been a death in the family 2 weeks ago, my great aunt. Since then I have moved to look after my grandmother, and since doing so a LOT of my symptoms have been mitigated. So the main thing I would suggest is be careful of isolation/hermit-life.
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Dec 23, 2015 13:09
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Tough time of year friend, hope you are well. I like to go on holiday to warm places and avoid any thought of Christmas, but no joy this year. I am going skiing in a couple months but nothing quite like ignoring the whole rigmarole on a beach in south Asia.
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Dec 24, 2015 23:02
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This is ruining my christmas op.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:36
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