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smallmouth posted:I think the interpretation of Caleb is problematic. The apple is originally referenced in his lie to his mother. Then it's implied the witch has fed him the apple. It also obviously references the fruit/curse in Genesis. It's important that Caleb throws it up undigested--signifying his purification from original sin (recall his conversation with his father re: Samuel). Also OT Caleb is of the tribe of Judah, the favored kingdom. I guess the issue I had was Caleb's sin is lust and the obvious implication is that he committed some kind of sex act with the witch which left him naked and cursed, so the ecstatic nature of his "redemption" is just immediately suspect to me, especially with language about being "pierced" by Christ and all that. The double entendre in his speech read to me as devilish parody, and I didn't find his coughing up the apple as a rejection of his sin, but as evidence of his sin. Also, it doesn't make any sense to me in the cosmology of the world: this appears to be a rigid puritan moral universe. Why on earth is Caleb's sin forgiven? He does literally nothing between being ensnared by the witch and the redemption scene, he's comatose. Given Caleb's conversation with his father about Samuel's certain damnation, this isn't a just universe. I just don't see why Caleb would be redeemed, and there are too many false notes for me. For me, Caleb is the precursor to Thomasin's joining the witch's coven. All the family are systematically tempted and they all fail, Caleb included. I don't see how Caleb is an exception, or deserves one more than the others. I do think the argument that Caleb's redemption is genuine has merit, I'm just recalling my own personal reaction.
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Nov 15, 2016 19:24
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Yeah, I'm not sure about tradition symbolism, but in modern exorcism imagery, coughing up something isn't rejection of it, it's affirmation that it's inside them.
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Nov 15, 2016 19:27
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Periodiko posted:I guess the issue I had was Caleb's sin is lust and the obvious implication is that he committed some kind of sex act with the witch which left him naked and cursed, so the ecstatic nature of his "redemption" is just immediately suspect to me, especially with language about being "pierced" by Christ and all that. The double entendre in his speech read to me as devilish parody, and I didn't find his coughing up the apple as a rejection of his sin, but as evidence of his sin. Also, it doesn't make any sense to me in the cosmology of the world: this appears to be a rigid puritan moral universe. Why on earth is Caleb's sin forgiven? He does literally nothing between being ensnared by the witch and the redemption scene, he's comatose. Given Caleb's conversation with his father about Samuel's certain damnation, this isn't a just universe. I just don't see why Caleb would be redeemed, and there are too many false notes for me. I guess in a Calvinistic framework Caleb doesn't have to "deserve" anything--that's pretty much the point ("Jacob I loved and Esau I hated..."). His salvation would have been determined by God "before the foundations of the Earth." The reason Caleb is concerned with Samuel's salvation is he was not baptized into the church. While baptism is neither required nor guarantees salvation, infant baptism and unbroken fellowship/membership in the church was a huge thing for Puritans. I still have a hard time getting over the fruit/garden symbolism--particularly with the witch giving him the apple (the woman also gave her husband the fruit...). Although you make interesting points. I'll have to watch the film again and see if I come to a different conclusion.
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Nov 15, 2016 21:28
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From a storytelling perspective I can't help but see Caleb's arc as one of redemption; you can present a malevolent universe but it creates more depth to have some bright spots as well. Wheels within wheels, man.
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Nov 16, 2016 15:29
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Looten Plunder posted:The Satanism reading is really interesting. Excuse my ignorance, but how would that appear militant atheist? Why would an atheist acknowledge Satan? You need to watch Silicon Valley
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Nov 18, 2016 13:43
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I just watched this last night thanks to it being $6 for the Blu-Ray during black Friday. It became apparent quickly that subtitles were necessary. I almost always turn subtitles on these days as I'm usually watching movies after the rest of the family has gone to bed. Going into it I knew that some folks were disappointed with the movie but I didn't know much else except the basics. I really enjoyed it and thought it was a fantastic movie. I had kind of planned to watch half of it and then finish it the next day but it kept me engaged too much to turn it off. The soundtrack was awesome. Like others had mentioned, it had the 2001 thing going on. A few questions: -I assume Black Phillip came with them from the village, is that correct? -When the parents were talking about finding a good home for Thomasin, what was the specific reason for that? It half seemed like they were trying to save her from something but it seems more practical to believe they were just going to get her married and that's just what you did at the time. It's interesting that Thomasin's name contains the word "sin". I hope to watch it again soon.
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Dec 1, 2016 16:38
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yeah they were just trying to sell her off
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Dec 1, 2016 16:39
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Escobarbarian posted:yeah they were just trying to sell her off I think part of her mom's motive was that she was jealous of Thomasin's youth and beauty.
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Dec 1, 2016 16:44
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It also was a pretty common puritan practice at the time for someone coming of age to live and work for another family. I don't think it's mentioned when/where they got Black Phillip. He may have been one of the things he traded for the silver cup.
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Dec 1, 2016 17:19
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I'm sorry, every time someone mentions Black Phillip I'll always just think of Patrice O'Neal.
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Dec 1, 2016 17:20
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smallmouth posted:It also was a pretty common puritan practice at the time for someone coming of age to live and work for another family. Do you know the reasons behind the practice? Because that sounds like she wasn't to be married but was just to live with another family for a while because...
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Dec 1, 2016 17:43
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UFOTofuTacoCat posted:Do you know the reasons behind the practice? Because that sounds like she wasn't to be married but was just to live with another family for a while because... I think it was mostly for life experience, to learn skills and such from other people. It was also done as discipline in some cases. The fact she hadn't yet lived with another family in the film was further evidence of their isolation from the community and the parents not being responsible for their children.
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Dec 1, 2016 17:53
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I can't tell if you're joking but lmao
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Dec 1, 2016 18:21
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Escobarbarian posted:I can't tell if you're joking but lmao He's not joking, you can read about it here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...n&ct=clnk&gl=us quote:Although most Puritan families were nuclear in structure, a significant proportion of the population spent part of their lives in other families' homes, serving as apprentices, hired'laborers, or servants. At any one time, as many as a third of all Puritan households took in servants. Con- victs, the children of the poor, single men and women, and recent im- migrants were compelled by selectmen to live within existing “well Governed families" so that "disorders may bee prevented and ill weeds nipt.” For the Puritans, family ties and community ties tended to blur. In many communities, individual family members were related by birth or marriage to a large number of their neighbors. In one community, Chatham, Massachusetts, the town’s 155 families bore just thirty-four sur- names; and in Andover, Massachusetts, the descendants of one settler, George Abbott I, had by 1750 intermarried into a dozen local families. The Small size of the seventeenth-century communities, combined with high rates of marriage and remarriage, created kinship networks of astonishing complexity. In-lawsland other distant kin were generally referred toas brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, mothers, fathers, and cousins.
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Dec 1, 2016 18:30
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This is hinted at with the mother's sexual jealousy and the brother's incestuous curiosity.
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Dec 1, 2016 19:39
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Black Phillip, Black Phillip A crown grows out his head, Black Phillip, Black Phillip To nanny queen is wed. Jump to the fence post, Running in the stall. Black Phillip, Black Phillip King of all. Black Phillip, Black Phillip King of sky and land, Black Phillip, Black Phillip King of sea and sand. We are ye servants, We are ye men. Black Phillip eats the lions From the lions' den. 
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Dec 2, 2016 09:46
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Those kids were a good balance of annoying and unsettling. At first when Caleb is in his ecstasy I figured they were just fooling around to get attention because they're brats.
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Dec 2, 2016 20:42
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I watched this last night. I didn't love it but I thought it was cool and I would definitely recommend it to other people like me who are too wimpy for many horror movies, because it's mostly about atmosphere and the couple of jump scare type moments are massively telegraphed SPOOKY REVEALs. Really beautifully shot and great music, which people haven't talked about much in this thread (though I have a few pages left to read). I did need subtitles though, between the dialect and the quietness of their voices (especially when the kids are listening through the wall when they're supposed to be asleep). I also could not stop thinking of parallels to The Shining. Besides the obvious seductress turning out to be an evil hag scene, you've got a family living in isolation driven mad by supernatural forces, repeated use of an axe, creepy twins, abnormal communication, etc. I'm probably missing some things. Maybe those are just horror tropes and I'm not that well versed.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:11
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Trumps Baby Hands posted:Black Phillip, Black Phillip  Henchman of Santa posted:I watched this last night. I didn't love it but I thought it was cool and I would definitely recommend it to other people like me who are too wimpy for many horror movies, because it's mostly about atmosphere and the couple of jump scare type moments are massively telegraphed SPOOKY REVEALs. Really beautifully shot and great music, which people haven't talked about much in this thread (though I have a few pages left to read). I did need subtitles though, between the dialect and the quietness of their voices (especially when the kids are listening through the wall when they're supposed to be asleep). Yeah i liked the music a lot. I also like your Shining parallels - might not be intentional but who cares.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:30
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I didn't notice the similarities to The Shining while I was watching it. It was only after the fact, when I saw it mentioned in reviews, did I make the connection. People mention specifically that the atmosphere of dread was reminiscent of The Shining, but while I was watching, the movie it reminded me of more than anything else was Antichrist. Tonally and thematically, I can't not look at them as sort of companion movies now.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:35
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Put off watching this until today and drat am I glad I did. I loved it. Particularly awesome: the way it uses colour. The piercing white on every highlight, the gradations of gray to black, and red, of course, but then the vibrant colours of the ending/ceremony slowly bleeding in as it all comes to a point are just beautiful. The scene with the crow, holy poo poo. Amazing. Also, this movie made me think a lot about "The White Ribbon" - both are stark, monolithic, ambiguous examinations of guilt, doubt, faith and morality - not to mention the weird morality unique to children - in historical settings. strangemusic fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Feb 23, 2017 |
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Feb 23, 2017 07:41
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Partner and I watched this last night, and I was interested up 'til the goat was the devil. Totally lost interest in that last 5 minutes. So many other ways it could have gone that I would have been on board for. What happened with the rabbit? A lot of setup that went no where. Also, it didn't really expose or cover what happened with the twins. Loved the cinematography and soundtrack, but the dialogue levels were bad (I had to keep changing the volume on my tv to hear the dialogue).
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Apr 2, 2017 13:10
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Prokhor Zakharov posted:As a guy who grew up on a farm with goats anyone who willingly works with Black Phillip and any of his billy goat ilk deserve anything they get. Billys are assholes. Serious question, why not cut the horns?
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Apr 3, 2017 02:25
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