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No there isn't, but there is also no way a centrist labour is going to effectively oppose the government or win an election by letting the tories set the agenda. I would suggest that the 2010 Tory pitch was remarkably centrist, they didn't govern to it but the way they sold it was absolutely far more centrist than you would normally hear from the Tories, so you can certainly set what sort of pitch the public will respond to. The idea that the public are incurably right wing and the only way to win them over is to follow whatever the tories say is wildly wrong and the PLP need to drop that. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Jul 31, 2016 |
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Jul 31, 2016 22:29
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Reducing the scope of politics to what happens in parliament is a bad thing everyone. Power and resistance extend well beyond it and you won't be very good at getting things done if you forget that.
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Jul 31, 2016 22:31
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But so far that is all they are... Speeches. I think from a personal standpoint, as a supporter of Corbyn I swing between being optimistic and pessimistic. On the one hand I think a majority of England culturally is that awful 'small c' conservative, either socially or economically, or both. I think these views are built on fundamental philosophical beliefs about the world that are too abstract for most people's experience of politics to challenge. The daily mail merely reflects and perpetuates this propensity to believe in crap such as Just World theory, tribalism, and the Protestant work ethic. I think it's just a product of our history, and is unlikely to be changed by intellectual argument, a politics is unlikely to deal with these core beliefs head on. Cultural change is needed and that can't really be forced or orchestrated. The good news is that the younger generation IS different from their predecessors, less materialistic, more socially orientated. The bad news is that they can't/don't vote in sufficient enough numbers outside of something like a labour leadership election to make a difference. I suspect the older generation of Brits are not going to change, and think the Labour Party would do well to see if it can capitalise on its huge youth appeal under Corbyn. It might not win an election in 2020, but if this bloc becomes powerful enough to stand with the trade unionists of old labour, and kicks the crap out of the PLP with a deselection vote, then it won't matter in the long run.
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Jul 31, 2016 22:32
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I've had a brilliant idea for a distinctive labour policy. Make voting mandatory. That way the young ppl who would vote for labour would vote for labour and more broadly the political class would have to cater to young ppl more.
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Jul 31, 2016 22:33
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Ocrassus posted:But so far that is all they are... Speeches. I think from a personal standpoint, as a supporter of Corbyn I swing between being optimistic and pessimistic. Organizing that generation outside of government and giving them a formalized set of ideas which appeal to their innate desires may be a good way to effect that cultural change.
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Jul 31, 2016 22:35
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Breath Ray posted:I've had a brilliant idea for a distinctive labour policy. Make voting mandatory. That way the young ppl who would vote for labour would vote for labour and more broadly the political class would have to cater to young ppl more. This should definitely be the case. The voting age should also be from 16, and 'citizenship' should be taught in schools (it already is in most?) and expanded/given more credence.
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Jul 31, 2016 22:42
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I mean a huge portion of the new membership is 18-30. Study after study has confirmed the fact that we care less about the material compensation we receive for our work, and more about the impact our work has on society. Overwhelmingly socially liberal, which is a better foundation to appeal to than the fear and conservatism that punctuates the demographic the blairites want. Structuring us into a wider political movement is hard though. So few people speak for us directly, often trying to appeal to our parents instead (often referenced by politicians as 'our youth'), so I believe the gap is there.
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Jul 31, 2016 22:43
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It does give some hope that polling is increasingly inaccurate if Labour is managing to engage young people because polling tends to ignore their responses.
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Jul 31, 2016 22:46
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LemonyTang posted:This should definitely be the case. The voting age should also be from 16, and 'citizenship' should be taught in schools (it already is in most?) and expanded/given more credence. Thank you! I actually typed that before the post above mine appeared so it just shows how on the same wavelength we are. Can an itk itt tell Jeremy of my idea? Its pretty unassailable and while they have it in oz and consistently return highly conservative ppl to power that's because Australians are arseholes.
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Jul 31, 2016 22:50
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A £5 tax rebate or something for voting would be good.
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Jul 31, 2016 22:52
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Nah you know what young ppl are like with money.
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Jul 31, 2016 22:54
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I thought it was odd that your post appeared so quickly after mine! I think it's a good idea, it probably won't bear fruit for another 10 or so years because right now the conservative older generation outnumbers us, but that will change as they all gently caress off into the sea/ground. The only hiccup I can see with labour proposing this idea is that it kind of violates the gentler kinder politics idea. If it pans out to advantage the left in anyway be assured the right will use their considerable resources to damage it. 'Forcing people to exercise their right to vote is undemocratic', 'this teen was fined 20 quid for not voting' sob stories, etc etc. Any kind of mandatory voting scheme needs to happen simultaneously with appeals to get young people to voluntarily vote, so they don't feel like it's 'vote or get beat with this stick', which will be attributable labour. Edit : a rebate sounds like a solid idea.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:01
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Ocrassus posted:I thought it was odd that your post appeared so quickly after mine! I think it's a good idea, it probably won't bear fruit for another 10 or so years because right now the conservative older generation outnumbers us, but that will change as they all gently caress off into the sea/ground. Some good points here as always ocrassus but I'm not too bothered with political consistency or sob stories. Jezza can just say weve listened to our members and couch it in terms of inclusivity. Everyone has a voice and everyone should make it heard. Good luck getting ppl too idle to vote out on to the streets to protest too haha
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Jul 31, 2016 23:09
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Ocrassus posted:The only hiccup I can see with labour proposing this idea is that it kind of violates the gentler kinder politics idea. If it pans out to advantage the left in anyway be assured the right will use their considerable resources to damage it. 'Forcing people to exercise their right to vote is undemocratic', 'this teen was fined 20 quid for not voting' sob stories, etc etc. Any kind of mandatory voting scheme needs to happen simultaneously with appeals to get young people to voluntarily vote, so they don't feel like it's 'vote or get beat with this stick', which will be attributable labour. It could be a tempered with a 'none of the above' box. Nobody's being forced to exercise their vote to elect a politician that way and it would allow an accurate measurement of real disillusionment. More emphasis on citizenship classes in schools is a double edged sword though - I'm sure Michael Gove would have had some interesting ideas about what should be taught there. LemonyTang posted:...you have to acknowledge that the leadership office has made failings. We need to reform the party but we also need the core people in Corbyn's office to get a grip. I think things would be a lot better if you had a shadow cabinet without anyone looking to backstab Corbyn (in the back or the front), because presumably the hostile attitude he has to take with people like Hilary Benn means he is susceptible to abandoning his whole cabinet. In some respects, that makes Tom Watson's election last year a double disappointment, beyond his simple defection. If you have a leader that's good on connecting with the voters but lousy at hardcore organisation and teamwork, you give him a deputy that is able to support him with the things he's bad at. An alternative timeline with Tom Watson batting 100% for Corbyn from day 1 would have been interesting to see.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:11
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Ocrassus posted:I mean a huge portion of the new membership is 18-30. Study after study has confirmed the fact that we care less about the material compensation we receive for our work, and more about the impact our work has on society. Overwhelmingly socially liberal, which is a better foundation to appeal to than the fear and conservatism that punctuates the demographic the blairites want. But have you considered that millenials are lazy and entitled? 
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Jul 31, 2016 23:17
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Allow a "none of the above" option and seats can remain empty. Encourage inclusion as well as one-upmanship.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:20
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Breath Ray posted:Thanks matey I more meant a kind of founding statement like to each according to his need etc, the nhs elevator pitch if you will Healthcare which is free at the point of delivery. NICE's job is to determine, among other things, whether offering a service or treatment on the nhs is in the public interest.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:21
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A lot of us are lazy and entitled tbf. That's the main reason we need mandatory voting.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:21
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"None of the above" counts as a vote for the MRLP.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:21
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Prince John posted:It could be a tempered with a 'none of the above' box. Nobody's being forced to exercise their vote to elect a politician that way and it would allow an accurate measurement of real disillusionment. More emphasis on citizenship classes in schools is a double edged sword though - I'm sure Michael Gove would have had some interesting ideas about what should be taught there. I'm not sure what would happen under FPTP if none of the above were to win in a constituency, I assume the actual person with the highest vote would take the seat, but it would be a good civic minded thing for there to be a public list of all candidates (and their parties) who performed worse than 'nope'.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:23
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Namtab posted:Healthcare which is free at the point of delivery. Ah, gotcha. My follow up question is what is covered under 'healthcare'. I mean no one dies as a result of not having children after all.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:24
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I'm off to bed now but could the person making the august thread please include mandatory voting as something we all agree on and hopefully the spirit of comradeship and mutual appreciation will continue from there.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:26
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Breath Ray posted:Ah, gotcha. My follow up question is what is covered under 'healthcare'. I mean no one dies as a result of not having children after all. mental health exists as well, not having kids can have an impact on mental health.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:27
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It's not as cut and dry as WILL PEOPLE DIE!?!?!?
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Jul 31, 2016 23:28
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Favourite for Ukip leader Steven Woolfe misses application deadline
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Jul 31, 2016 23:28
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Here's a thought - Labour leadership candidates need 50 MPs to sign them off. If Corbyn completely tanks the party then they won't have that many MPs. Hey presto - job for life.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:31
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Namtab posted:mental health exists as well, not having kids can have an impact on mental health. Youre right - having kids actually makes ppl more depressed than those who choose not to! Read that recently
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Jul 31, 2016 23:32
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Namtab posted:mental health exists as well, not having kids can have an impact on mental health.  There might be ethical issues with artificially giving people more kids while there's kids waiting to be adopted or whatever, but I assume that's a drop in the ocean and they could be doing a lot more socially to help those kids anyway, it's not an either/or, iono.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:33
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Guavanaut posted:If it's anything like gender dysphoria then a bunch of people will just start saying "well why can't they just give them a pill to be happy with no kids?" It's sad that "it's such a small proportion of the population so it's not really a lot of money anyway" is an argument we have to fall back on, but it's true. More "economic activity" is probably wasted on "reporting" this kind of crap than it costs the NHS.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:37
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Guavanaut posted:If it's anything like gender dysphoria then a bunch of people will just start saying "well why can't they just give them a pill to be happy with no kids?" Breath Ray posted:Youre right - having kids actually makes ppl more depressed than those who choose not to! Read that recently I'm not convinced you're asking me questions in good faith. Either way if you're trying for children for many years then it can be quite distressing if you can't conceive, particularly if you lose a pregnancy. They don't give ifv upfront on the nhs you have to go through other things first.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:39
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Perhaps we should forcibly sterilize everyone, and give everyone some nice pfitzer manufactured antidepressants. That would appeal to both the forced sterilization demographic and the people who are sad about not having children demographic, and Owen Smith!
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Jul 31, 2016 23:39
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On Team Corbyn's policies, this is the Manifesto For Labour Law that McDonnell endorsed in June as 'a blueprint for future Labour policy', and which Smith cribbed a whole load of stuff from for his own platform a few days back.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:42
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OwlFancier posted:Perhaps we should forcibly sterilize everyone, and give everyone some nice pfitzer manufactured antidepressants. That would appeal to both the forced sterilization demographic and the people who are sad about not having children demographic, and Owen Smith!  Namtab posted:I imagine the issue is kinda biotruthy in that the majority of people who want children want those children to be biologically theirs.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:43
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Here's a thought - Labour leadership candidates need 50 MPs to sign them off. If Corbyn completely tanks the party then they won't have that many MPs. Hey presto - job for life. To be a pedant, it's 15%, which is around 50 MPs right now. So if you get Labour down to 20 MPs in total, Corbyn, McDonnell and Diane Abbott would make up 15% and he'd be sorted.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:44
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Breath Ray posted:I've had a brilliant idea for a distinctive labour policy. Make voting mandatory. That way the young ppl who would vote for labour would vote for labour and more broadly the political class would have to cater to young ppl more. This is actually a good idea, but good luck getting it or any kind of progressive electoral reform through in the current environment.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:49
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thespaceinvader posted:good luck getting it or any kind of progressive electoral reform through New thread is here.
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Aug 1, 2016 00:06
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