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Mans
Sep 14, 2011

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

The Kingfish posted:

And yet: even though things are not perfect, conditions are still better for sex workers in places where adult sex work is legalized and regulated.

human trafficking actually increased because the demand for prostitutes rose.

prostitution is bad and virutally no one goes into the business voluntarily. legalizing it is giving money to pimps and human traffickers.

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TomViolence
Feb 19, 2013

PLEASE ASK ABOUT MY 80,000 WORD WALLACE AND GROMIT SLASH FICTION. PLEASE.

I reckon this derail's gone on long enough. Sorry for starting it. If anyone wants to spin it off into an arguing about sex work thread, I'll happily post my bad opinions there though.

twodot
Aug 7, 2005

You are objectively correct that this person is dumb and has said dumb things

TomViolence posted:

I reckon this derail's gone on long enough. Sorry for starting it. If anyone wants to spin it off into an arguing about sex work thread, I'll happily post my bad opinions there though.
I don't know, this seems pretty relevant, what do actual sex workers want policy-wise and can that be reconciled with the academic left?

TomViolence
Feb 19, 2013

PLEASE ASK ABOUT MY 80,000 WORD WALLACE AND GROMIT SLASH FICTION. PLEASE.

twodot posted:

I don't know, this seems pretty relevant, what do actual sex workers want policy-wise and can that be reconciled with the academic left?

Oh wait, we're giving them agency now?

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

twodot posted:

I don't know, this seems pretty relevant, what do actual sex workers want policy-wise and can that be reconciled with the academic left?

they want out of it for the most part while those (majority white, middle class or upper who do high paying escorting) who are well off talk about how liberating it is.

Dr Kool-AIDS
Mar 26, 2004

Mans posted:

prostitution is bad and virutally no one goes into the business voluntarily

That's not even close to being true, but a weird alliance between conservatives and a faction of feminists would sure like everyone to believe it. Coercion is obviously a problem, especially for streetwalkers, but I'm pretty sure most of the smiling college girls on Seeking Arrangement aren't being forced into anything. I've never solicited, but I know at least two college graduates who were objectively engaged in some form of prostitution by choice. One did it to pay off her students loans, and the other, who was an Ivy League grad from a rich family, just thought having sex for free when she could get paid for it was stupid. Anecdotes aren't data, but the internet has contributed to the rise of euphemistic prostitution which allows women more of an ability to control their circumstances. I still think it's bad for society, but I understand why civil libertarians think it's a valid choice, and why many liberals and leftists would prefer a non-carceral solution to the problem of consensual sex work.

twodot
Aug 7, 2005

You are objectively correct that this person is dumb and has said dumb things

Mans posted:

they want out of it for the most part while those (majority white, middle class or upper who do high paying escorting) who are well off talk about how liberating it is.
I mean even if I were to just assume you're some authority who can reasonably make grand far reaching assertions about diverse demographics, none of these are policy goals, so I'm not understanding the connection.

TomViolence
Feb 19, 2013

PLEASE ASK ABOUT MY 80,000 WORD WALLACE AND GROMIT SLASH FICTION. PLEASE.

The other thing is whether or not they're in the job voluntarily they still suffer as a result of heavyhanded laws and punitive law enforcement techniques. For instance, the posession of condoms being taken as intent to sell sex, thus causing protitutes to forego them entirely, or the laws against brothel keeping in the UK that prevent sex workers from legally living and working together for mutual protection. These policies punish and put at risk those who sell sex, not those who buy it.

Sex work has always existed and probably will always exist in one form or another. And like all workers under capitalism sex workers face exploitation. These are people just trying to survive one day to the next and priority one should be their welfare, even if it means tolerating a state of affairs that we might find distasteful or immoral.

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Sinteres posted:

That's not even close to being true, but a weird alliance between conservatives and a faction of feminists would sure like everyone to believe it. Coercion is obviously a problem, especially for streetwalkers, but I'm pretty sure most of the smiling college girls on Seeking Arrangement aren't being forced into anything. I've never solicited, but I know at least two college graduates who were objectively engaged in some form of prostitution by choice. One did it to pay off her students loans, and the other, who was an Ivy League grad from a rich family, just thought having sex for free when she could get paid for it was stupid. Anecdotes aren't data, but the internet has contributed to the rise of euphemistic prostitution which allows women more of an ability to control their circumstances. I still think it's bad for society, but I understand why civil libertarians think it's a valid choice, and why many liberals and leftists would prefer a non-carceral solution to the problem of consensual sex work.

quote:

they want out of it for the most part while those (majority white, middle class or upper who do high paying escorting) who are well off talk about how liberating it is.

most of the smiling college girls on seeking arrangement aren't even a loving drop in the ocean that is the human trafficking and enslavement that is prostitution on a global level.

Dr Kool-AIDS
Mar 26, 2004

Mans posted:

most of the smiling college girls on seeking arrangement aren't even a loving drop in the ocean that is the human trafficking and enslavement that is prostitution on a global level.

Escorts and sugar babies add up to more than a drop in developed countries though. Laws against trafficking should of course be strict and enforced, as should laws against coercion and pimping, but advocating strict legal remedies for people engaging in consensual sex work in their own countries because you're worried about a cascade effect isn't as obviously righteous as you'd like it to be. It's the equivalent of saying we need to throw marijuana dealers and purchasers in prison because it's a gateway drug. In practice the police probably don't go after sugar babies that much, or high class escorts, but there are high profile stings for providers on backpage all the time, and they're almost always accused of being involved in human trafficking regardless of the circumstance. Scaremongering with buzzwords when they don't actually apply is bad.

thotsky
Jun 7, 2005

hot to trot
I don't get the argument that left-wing politics abandoned the working class. If anything neo-liberalism is the political class abandoning left-wing politics. Left-wing politics still look out for the worker, it's just that nobody is practicing it anymore, and anyone who tries gets hung out to dry, probably because nobody wants them upsetting the gravy train.

Angular Landbury
Oct 24, 2011

MAGGLE.
Is there really much or any outreach to the working class or especially to rural communities from leftist groups? I know there's a fair amount in larger cities, through unions, but my experience from living in the South for a while was that "Leftism" in the less urban US was that sort of pro-corporate democrat thing with some occasional concessions to environmentalism and expanded personal rights, and everything more lefty was the domain of university critical theory classes and punk rock house parties.

Regarde Aduck
Oct 19, 2012

Grimey Drawer
That's because your two party system consists of two right wing parties. One further right than the other. This has resulted in a skewed perception of left vs right politics compared to the rest of the world.

Global left = Welfare, public services, regulation, equality, generally higher taxes of the rich, historically pro-violent-revolution but modern leftism is generally anti-military, internationalism.
Global right = Low taxes all round (everyone likes this but it benefits the rich the most), corporate welfare (IE the government won't give its poor a penny but it will bail out companies), private services, less regulation, personal freedoms, pro-business, historically hawkish militarily, nationalism.

American "left" = LOL Laissez-faire capitalism can run everything!
American "right" = LOL Laissez-faire capitalism can run everything! Says mean things more often.

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Sinteres posted:

Escorts and sugar babies add up to more than a drop in developed countries though. Laws against trafficking should of course be strict and enforced, as should laws against coercion and pimping, but advocating strict legal remedies for people engaging in consensual sex work in their own countries because you're worried about a cascade effect isn't as obviously righteous as you'd like it to be. It's the equivalent of saying we need to throw marijuana dealers and purchasers in prison because it's a gateway drug. In practice the police probably don't go after sugar babies that much, or high class escorts, but there are high profile stings for providers on backpage all the time, and they're almost always accused of being involved in human trafficking regardless of the circumstance. Scaremongering with buzzwords when they don't actually apply is bad.

It would be like going after drug cartels while trying to get the small time drug dealers and mules out of the game while ignoring completely the opinion of some upper class dude who sells coke to wall street brokers for fun because his experience is completely irrelevant to the serious problems behind the structure that is drug trafficking.

If you think even 50% of the prostitutes in western europe are middle class voluntary college girls who just want to have fun then you live in a tremendous bubble.

Angular Landbury
Oct 24, 2011

MAGGLE.

Regarde Aduck posted:

That's because your two party system consists of two right wing parties. One further right than the other. This has resulted in a skewed perception of left vs right politics compared to the rest of the world.

Global left = Welfare, public services, regulation, equality, generally higher taxes of the rich, historically pro-violent-revolution but modern leftism is generally anti-military, internationalism.
Global right = Low taxes all round (everyone likes this but it benefits the rich the most), corporate welfare (IE the government won't give its poor a penny but it will bail out companies), private services, less regulation, personal freedoms, pro-business, historically hawkish militarily, nationalism.

American "left" = LOL Laissez-faire capitalism can run everything!
American "right" = LOL Laissez-faire capitalism can run everything! Says mean things more often.

I don't disagree with your assertion that we have two generally right (or at least one centrist and one right wing party - the issues each one takes on changes like the wind, we don't really have political parties as much as political brand names with shifting ingredients) but I'd completely disagree with your descriptions of American Left and American Right, as silly as it is to try and correct hyperbole.

My point though, isn't about the nature of US mainstream politics but my general observation that the "extreme" left, as it exists in the USA, talks a good game from the college campus, but fails to even attempt engagement with anything outside of unionized labor. A college professor yelling how cool Kropotkin is from their twitter account isn't going to impress Joe from Montana who voted for fracking and pipelines because it might bring skilled labor jobs to his town.

Dr Kool-AIDS
Mar 26, 2004

Mans posted:

If you think even 50% of the prostitutes in western europe are middle class voluntary college girls who just want to have fun then you live in a tremendous bubble.

I don't, but we've come a long way from you saying virtually nobody involved is doing so voluntarily. I think there are good arguments for (and against) prohibition, but you were being hyperbolic.

twodot
Aug 7, 2005

You are objectively correct that this person is dumb and has said dumb things

Mans posted:

If you think even 50% of the prostitutes in western europe are middle class voluntary college girls who just want to have fun then you live in a tremendous bubble.
If you know 50% is definitely wrong, can you just tell us the actual number and where you got your data? Like I definitely live in a tremendous bubble with respect to practice of prostitution in western Europe, but you just asserting things doesn't make me think you're right.

The Kingfish
Oct 21, 2015


Corporate democracy. Laborers ought to have greater control over their workplace.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011

twodot posted:

If you know 50% is definitely wrong, can you just tell us the actual number and where you got your data? Like I definitely live in a tremendous bubble with respect to practice of prostitution in western Europe, but you just asserting things doesn't make me think you're right.

There's an absolute shitload of comparative studies when it comes to the legality of prostitution and its effects on human trafficking but if you want somewhere to start, here is one. (pp. 22-26 being the relevant part) It doesn't evaluate the implications of the legislation for the individuals but it does indicate how legality can affect scale. It's one among many studies that have shown that human trafficking in Germany has increased as a result of legalization.

MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Sep 21, 2016

Grognan
Jan 23, 2007

by Fluffdaddy

twodot posted:

I don't know, this seems pretty relevant, what do actual sex workers want policy-wise and can that be reconciled with the academic left?

Not to harp on an old refrain, but literally having lived on-site and worked with working women (as bartender/handyman) in a brothel in Nevada, I might have gotten a little insight into some of the health and labor protections that the working women wanted.

Most of the women were married or had stable partners that knew what they did. We had some working women fly to and from from LA because it was safer.

Any business transaction between the working women and a client was up to the the lady. (Everything in the negotiation was recorded with consent because you would not believe the poo poo that johns would pull when they think they can get away with it.)

Rooms had alarm buzzers to alert security to a situation. (again because some sick fucks use sex work's separation from legal recourse to do heinous and murderous poo poo)

This is an North Nevadan perspective on the issue and I freely admit there are systemic problems overall. Asking a labor sector to work under the table is like expecting a kitchen to never see a health inspector.

Then again, if we as Americans can't bother to make sure our agricultural workers aren't trafficked and marginalized it seems laughable that any mainstream political party would do anything but pretend the problems with unregulated sex work do not exist.

Ormi
Feb 7, 2005

B-E-H-A-V-E
Arrest us!
The LSE data pointing to a rise in human trafficking after decriminalization is highly flawed, because it doesn't make an even cursory attempt to connect the two things together, distinguish between sex trafficking and other types of human trafficking, account for the effects of making an invisible activity visible, and so on.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/amnesty-international-publishes-policy-and-research-on-protection-of-sex-workers-rights/

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011

Ormi posted:

The LSE data pointing to a rise in human trafficking after decriminalization is highly flawed, because it doesn't make an even cursory attempt to connect the two things together, distinguish between sex trafficking and other types of human trafficking, account for the effects of making an invisible activity visible, and so on.

The study mentions as much if you had bothered to read the research design. I don't think anyone is under any allusions about the difficulties of quantification on this subject. :confused:

In this case study there were multiple factors used to control but it's not like you can ever truly be certain in policy research. As I said it shows, that doesn't mean it proves. Nevertheless, the study is just one among many. Individually they prove little but together they paint a very concerning picture. If you could solve complex societal problems in one paper then we wouldn't have social issues.


Do I really need to explain to you why Amnesty International's position on this is as of last year highly controversial? The organization has had some very distinct question marks hovering over its head for a while now when it comes to prostitution. Not to mention how many of their recent reports, most notably the Norway one, have been heavily criticized by other civil society organizations such as here for example on numerous grounds. They are not a trustworthy actor anymore.

MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Sep 21, 2016

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe

Mans posted:

most of the smiling college girls on seeking arrangement aren't even a loving drop in the ocean that is the human trafficking and enslavement that is prostitution on a global level.

You're all touching on a debate that is raging within the network of agencies and advocates who fight sex trafficking. There are no easy answers either. Where is the line between harm reduction and enabling child prostitution?

I'll be attending a conference next week about the "Nordic model" and hope to learn a lot.

Ormi
Feb 7, 2005

B-E-H-A-V-E
Arrest us!
I don't think people disagreeing with Amnesty International's stance necessarily makes them untrustworthy, unless you suppose that they're somehow deceiving the public for an ulterior motive, or being deceived themselves. Part of the problem of trafficking laws when it comes to sex work is that in many cases, such as Alejandra Gil's, essentially all forms of management and facilitation of sex work are included as trafficking regardless of whether or not that facilitation is voluntary. That is, in fact, the entire reason the NSWP advocates for the decriminalization of brothels. It's no big secret or death blow to their arguments.

Fundamentally, I take issue with the implication that the only sex workers who advocate for themselves are, post-hoc, necessarily "privileged", "middle-class", "doing it for fun", and so on. The simple fact is that banning sex work does not change the conditions that get people involved in it in the first place. It is true that crackdowns can help free victims of coerced trafficking, but this is entirely incidental to prohibition as a whole. We can condemn coercion and slavery while not tearing livelihoods from people and offering them little alternative.That's Amnesty's position, and as someone friendly with sex workers, it's mine as well.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011

Ormi posted:

I don't think people disagreeing with Amnesty International's stance necessarily makes them untrustworthy, unless you suppose that they're somehow deceiving the public for an ulterior motive, or being deceived themselves. Part of the problem of trafficking laws when it comes to sex work is that in many cases, such as Alejandra Gil's, essentially all forms of management and facilitation of sex work are included as trafficking regardless of whether or not that facilitation is voluntary. That is, in fact, the entire reason the NSWP advocates for the decriminalization of brothels. It's no big secret or death blow to their arguments.

It's not merely a disagreement, the report was downright faulty at parts and intentionally misleading in others. It misconstrued quotes, cherry picked among its own sample and cited reports which have been debunked for years within academia. It was a blatant attempt at lobbying government to repeal the current adoption of the Swedish model on a false basis. If you don't see how the sex industry revenue funding data used by a woman's advocacy group is a conflict of interest then I don't know what to tell you. There is no full legalization vs criminalization dichotomy here, the Swedish model is a proven alternative and groups such as the NSWP are actively lobbying against it through organizations like Amnesty International precisely because it works.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
I had no idea so many white workers work on their back

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Ormi
Feb 7, 2005

B-E-H-A-V-E
Arrest us!

MiddleOne posted:

It's not merely a disagreement, the report was downright faulty at parts and intentionally misleading in others. It misconstrued quotes, cherry picked among its own sample and cited reports which have been debunked for years within academia. It was a blatant attempt at lobbying government to repeal the current adoption of the Swedish model on a false basis.

If you got all of that from the poorly written article that makes such subjective claims as "violence is inherent in prostitution", I'm impressed and am keen on you explaining the details, because I barely saw any. Amnesty didn't cherry pick anything, it was a qualitative report demonstrating that a number of Norwegian sex workers had a problem with criminalization. Many sex workers have different experiences with the police, it doesn't make the negative ones any less valid or concerning. Also, the "debunked" report isn't actually debunked, it just has many of the same statistical problems stemming from limited research that plagues efforts to understand the reality of sex work, which we touched on. The truth is that nobody has hard numbers, and the claimed experiences of sex workers are divided, but the public overwhelmingly chooses to ignore it when people agitate against what they see as a paternalistic and dangerous system that directly affects their lives.

But sure, I'll concede to you that Amnesty International is inexorably corrupt and linked to organized crime money, doesn't actually care about human rights, and that no sex workers have a problem with the Swedish model. It just makes intuitive sense. How could we all have been so blind.

DarkCrawler posted:

I had no idea so many white workers work on their back

It's definitely relevant in the sense of intellectuals telling marginalized working class people that, actually, they have it good, and to shut up or leave the industry. Very inspiring stuff.

Let's not also forget the UN. Hoodwinked fools, or also in the pocket of the Sullivan Street Syndicate? I'm just asking questions.

Ormi fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Sep 21, 2016

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