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I haven’t experienced too much blatant racism in my life, but that’s largely because I’ve always lived in multicultural areas around Toronto. I can’t say I’ve honestly ever feared for my life because of my skin color. I wonder if in the eyes of any of my white friends, coworkers, and neighbors, I am “one of the good ones”, because I’m westernized and don’t have an accent. Lately there’s been a doomsday scenario that’s been I’ve been thinking about. I keep telling myself that it’s extremely unlikely but I can’t shake it. Here it is:
1. Are Nationalist and Racist ideologies going to become more prominent and powerful in the coming years? What about openly racist politicians or political parties? 2. What is racist culture like? What are the subcultures among racists? Are they just a fringe minority or do they have a significant influence in the USA and overseas? Who are their figureheads? 3. What is the extent of racism among groups like UKIP, Front National, and the Alt RIght? Is everyone aware of the racism but they’ve just learned to use Euphemisms to cover up their prejudice? Or do they genuinely believe they’re not racists? 4. Among the racist subculture, what groups are they more or less racist too? Are they all “all-or-nothing” racists or are some them okay with black people but against Arabs? 5. Do these people take fake conservative news sources seriously? Could they be susceptible to racist propaganda spread by various hate groups? 6. How improbable is the scenario I laid out above? Before you ask, yes I've already read that frontpage article.
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Nov 28, 2016 06:43
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Presumably, most whites are too comfortable and atomized to partake in any kind of mob style violence that characterized american race relations from ~1600-1980
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Nov 28, 2016 07:19
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He won't. (I really hope not)
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Nov 28, 2016 07:27
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You can't have a real pogrom without state involvement in some way. Until Sheriff Joe's Deportation Posse starts getting set up there's no need to worry much. Isolated acts of violence? Probable and already happening. Also, keep in mind that the last state sponsored pogrom in a developed Western country, Kristallnacht, backfired so badly domestically and internationally that it actually led to a crackdown on unsanctioned anti-Semitic violence. In late-30s Nazi Germany. Soy Division fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 07:51
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cult member at airport posted:[*]Eventually the initial wave of violence ceases, but hate crimes skyrocket for the long-term. Weak-rear end excuse for a race war IMHO, OP.
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Nov 28, 2016 08:18
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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The idea that whites will start rioting and killing minorities is ridiculous. Cops will do that for them.
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Nov 28, 2016 13:47
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I think it's likely we'll see a huge number of riots, especially if there is a directive to increase police presence in black communities, but that will be because black communities have strong ties, and will stand up to police violence The reverse probably won't happen. The whites who would riot are too comfortable, or have their own personal issues. That's barring state sponsored violence, but we aren't that far gone Edit: I think individual hate crimes against vulnerable minorities will continue and increase. I've been hearing self defense classes are having a boom in business, and that's really good. Anyone visibly different should be learning how to fight back, as horrifying as that sentence was to write. Famethrowa fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 14:54
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Have race relations really changed that much in the past 8 or 16 years? If things went back to how they were with Dubya, what would the difference be?
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Nov 28, 2016 16:52
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Creative convention is a few forums down. The Trumpocalypse is not going to happen.
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Nov 28, 2016 16:53
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cult member at airport posted:I haven’t experienced too much blatant racism in my life, but that’s largely because I’ve always lived in multicultural areas around Toronto. I can’t say I’ve honestly ever feared for my life because of my skin color. I wonder if in the eyes of any of my white friends, coworkers, and neighbors, I am “one of the good ones”, because I’m westernized and don’t have an accent. Half the poo poo you lay out in your hypothetical already happens. It's not going to escalate into anything, it's just background noise in the US's long history of racial strife. I'll go down your questions. 1. Already are, already have been. The last few years have seen racists and nationalists making big gains all over the world. Not just in the US, but in Europe as well. Ever since 2008, pretty much. 2. You're living in it. While open racism is unacceptable to publicly express, the US never really got less racist - it just changed the framing and the language enough to give judges wiggle room. 3. A lot of racists, up to and including literal Klan members, genuinely believe that they are not racist. This is because many people consider racism to be "hating other races for no reason", and since they have plenty of reasons that they've rationalized up for their racism, they believe they're not racist. The reason this belief is so prevalent is because "racist" carries the connotation of "bad person", and no one thinks themselves to a bad person, so when faced with the possibility that their existing beliefs might be racist, their brain starts stretching and molding definitions and justifications as if they were Silly Putty in order to create a frame of mind in which they can hold racist beliefs without being a "bad person" like a racist. They dont want to be a racist, but rather than changing their beliefs to avoid being racist, they change the definition of racism to avoid changing their beliefs...and they largely got away with it because everyone around them was doing pretty much the same thing, so that changed definition is firmly rooted in much of our culture now. 4. Of course racists have hierarchies. There's all sorts. For example, most Western Islamophobic neo-Nazis are willing to partner with Jews and Israel to combat Muslims and Arabs, who they see as a bigger threat. 5. Everyone's willing to believe fake news that supports what they already think is true. That's not just a conservative thing. 6. Most people willing to go out and do something in response to a fake racist news article are already doing that in response to the fake racist news that already gets published on a daily basis. The violence will just ramp up somewhat under Trump; there won't be a fundamental change.
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Nov 28, 2016 17:21
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Here's a primer for the alt-right movement as explained by a prominent member of their community. Unsurprisingly, it's full of racist and anti-semitic rhetoric, but I think it's a good resource to understand the origins, beliefs, and methods of their movement. quote:Some of the ways the movement presents itself can be confusing to the mainstream, given the level of irony involved. The amount of humor and vulgarity confuses people. The true nature of the movement, however, is serious and idealistic. We have in this new millennium an extremely nihilistic culture. From the point when I first became active in what has become the Alt-Right movement, it was my contention that in an age of nihilism, absolute idealism must be couched in irony in order to be taken seriously. This is because anyone who attempts to present himself as serious will immediately be viewed as the opposite through the jaded lens of our post-modern milieu. Thus why they laugh their asses off when the media talks about Pepe being a symbol of hate. Here's another article that goes into what the alt-right wants from the Trump administration. quote:The alt-right’s priority, first and foremost, is preserving America’s status as a white-majority nation. To that end, they want Trump to follow through on the most extreme immigration ideas he’s discussed — such as deporting millions of undocumented immigrants and banning Muslim immigration. These steps, they think, will slow what they call the “dispossession” of America’s whites. bowser fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 17:23
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Alright, I'm going to give my entirely anecdotal thoughts on your questions. I have known some racists very intimately, in the US and UK, and that is my only "qualification" to speak with authority. Please note that I am talking about people who are undoubtedly racists, not people who are attracted to right-wing populism but haven't thought very hard about it, or your aunt saying covertly racist things at Thanksgiving. Those people are a little different, although they are also the ones that enable the transition to a period of heightened racism. 1. Probably. 2. Western racists (open, overt, avowed ones) are best divided by class and education level. The first, and biggest, group is comprised of uneducated working-class people shouting about muslamic ray guns and the knockout game. These people are easily dismissed. During times of low racial antagonism, the devout ones tend to become gang members and end up in jail. They get facial tattoos of swastikas or openly brag about their beliefs at work. In short, they are not too bright, and don't make a lot of effort to hide their views for personal gain. Again, I am not talking about your average Trump or Brexit voter here, or UKIP/Tea Party member, but the true believers in racist ideology among the uneducated. EDL members. Visitors at Nordic Fest. If we actually had a fascist society, the SA would recruit from these people. Then (because history repeats itself) it would be realized that they're a bunch of unruly criminals, they'd be purged, and replaced with an American SS that recruited from the military or whatever. The more educated type are dangerous, because they can harness both the above group and people with covert racist attitudes (who tend to make up the majority that vote for harmful policies, often with what they think are good intentions). The braver ones are people like Bannon. They come up with some sort of "new movement" and their own alternative press. They espouse the same old ideas, couched in language which is more explicit than a dogwhistle, but sufficiently different from the discredited movements of the past. The more cowardly ones are Bannon's readers, who would never admit to being a "fascist" or "racist" in public (although they will definitely admit to voting Trump and reading Breitbart), but will in private. I guess these people hope they will be low-level gauleiters when white people win the race war. They will never be the first ones going out starting trouble- they are too smart, they don't want to lose their jobs if it all comes to nothing- but they would join in a full-swing war, and they fantasise about that day coming constantly. It might help a bit to think of the former group as being authoritarian followers and the latter as leaders (or wannabe-leaders). 3. On the alt right, open white supremacy is pretty much the order of the day. It's couched in a bunch of pseudo-intellectualism, and has not traditionally had much of an expression on the street (rather than the internet). Individual members might have been involved in small-scale Nazi groups, the Tea Party, or have stumped for Trump, but they haven't yet really organised in an independent way. That doesn't mean they aren't a threat, but they prefer to get behind other movements they think benefit them. The Front National, BNP etc. are sanitised "ex"-Nazi groups. A French poster will better explain what happened with the FN. The BNP literally used to be the British National Front. They were street thugs who went around kicking in the heads of minorities. They tried to legitimise themselves in the 90s and 00s, but largely failed. UKIP is a bit different. It was founded as a single-issue party to leave the EU (wrap it up, UKIP-uccesses) and immigration was only one of the initial concerns. It was always right-wing, but after it became clear we were not going to adopt the Euro, the anti-immigrant rhetoric came to the fore. UKIP used to mostly attract "respectable" racists. Like my acquaintance from my hometown who was obsessed with his Scandinavian heritage and yelled at gypsies, but would never defend Hitler use the word "racist" to describe himself. It's no surprise to me that UKIP got more traction in the UK than the BNP. British people love to think of themselves as being essentially moderate and fair-minded. A student protester throwing a brick through a bank window immediately invalidates anti-austerity protests in the mind of an average person here, and therefore the BNP's history invalidates what they have to say. But UKIP is just a bunch of chaps with good banter talking common sense. 4. Yes, this mostly has to do with the culture and region they grew up in. In the US it's typical for actual fascists to hate black people the most, followed by Arabs and other muslim-dominated ethnic groups like Persians/Pakistanis, then Latinos, then Jews, then South and SE Asians and Natives, then East Asians. East Asians (especially the Japanese) are sometimes said to be almost as good as white people, maybe even smarter, just "less creative" or something along those lines. Hating Jews in the USA is a tell-tale sign of reading conspiracy/fascist literature and websites, because there doesn't seem to be much of an anti-semitic culture among your typical Fox News viewing Tea Partier. For a long time, supporting Israel was de rigeur, and still is among establishment Republicans. It seems to be making a comeback with the rise of the Alt Right. Except for the notion that they are "parasites", hatred of Jews almost seems to be a type of jealousy, because they are seen as a clever race that ruthlessly self-promotes itself. This is what the racists think "the white race" should be doing. I've heard so many times that the discrepancy between right-wing Israeli policy and left-wing Jewish expats is some sort of calculated ploy by the hive mind ("they try to spread multiculturalism in other countries, but don't accept it in their own state, as they want the other states to fail") rather than a result of the fact that different Jewish groups and individuals have different opinions. Nearly everyone who is racist to the degree I'm talking about in this post denies the Holocaust on some level. In the UK, muslims (chiefly South Asian) and Eastern Europeans attract the most ire. Muslims because of terrorism and a few high-profile crimes like the pedophile gang in Rotherham,* and Eastern Europeans for largely the same reasons as Latinos in the USA. Black people are disadvantaged, but they haven't been the most hated group for a couple of decades. Talking to a US racist about UK racism is fun. They don't understand the hatred for Eastern Europeans (especially if they have Polish ancestry or something) and they try to come up with some biological, as opposed to socio-cultural, reason that black people are seen differently. "Most of your blacks are from the West Indies, they must have interbred differently and they are more well-behaved", that kind of thing. That said, pretty much all open racists hate everyone who isn't part of their ethnic group, to different degrees. The exception is someone who maybe is mixed race and self-hating. Sometimes they try to come up with some reason that they are an exception to the rule. 5. What Main Paineframe said, but yes they do. Often they accommodate themselves to rejecting "mainstream" news and coming up with reasons that rigorous sources are all biased before they get on to the websites that leave alarm bells ringing in most people's heads. They go from some forum/image board, to a PUA blog, to Breitbart, then places like Infowars and Stormfront. If someone linked Infowars right away, they would nope the gently caress out of there. Someone I know thinks Alex Jones is "controlled opposition", because he agrees with many things he says, but is lucid enough to realise that chemtrails and lizard people are not real. So his belief is that he puts sensible views next to crackers ones to make the former look bad by association. 6. I suppose it's as good as any? If these events actually happen, something has to be the trigger event, and it's typically something inconsequential. But it's just as possible that we see a rise in hate crimes and police violence that is largely swept under the rug. Most well-to-do white people won't even realise it's happening. * The thing about the alt right is that they have like... memes about race relations in other countries. Mention any given country and they will parrot out some event that happened there that makes non-whites look bad. At least twice, I've had foreign racists who couldn't even point it out on a map of Britain chant ROTHERHAM!!!! at me as if it was a QED in itself. Every time I speak to someone from Rotherham for my job, I think of these fuckwits now. Another time, I told one about my upcoming trip to Berlin, and he started going "ficky-ficky" in reference to some rapes that occurred at Carnival in Cologne. I think they genuinely believe you cannot walk into these places without getting raped by immigrants. TBH It's worse than the stereotypical thing with Americans not knowing anything at all about other countries.
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Nov 28, 2016 20:18
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I think unemployment in the US would have to be a lot higher than it is for the scenario to play out.
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Nov 28, 2016 20:37
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Verdugo posted:Creative convention is a few forums down. The Trumpocalypse is not going to happen. Can you go into more detail on why you believe this to be true, or is it just a drive-by shrug (I'm not being snarky; I'm genuinely asking either way)? Three weeks ago, I would have said - and, in fact, did say - that most whites were "too comfortable" to pull the pin and throw a Trump hand grenade into the seat of POTUS. Yeah, he would get votes from crazy people: white supremacists, male supremacists, and the like. But I thought that most people were relatively too comfortable to burn the whole thing to the ground. Sure, all humans have an undercurrent of racism and sexism and fear, but ultimately it's a pretty comfortable thing whites have going on here. I did not think they would vote to lose their own health care (ACA), education (the new billionaire bitch who vows to de-fund public schooling in favor of vouchers), tax base (good-bye estate tax and welfare and and and), friends (p much everybody has at least one friend who is gay / a woman / otherwise hosed by this change), and planet (climate change deniers in charge! woo!). I thought most people were too comfortable to vote for a man who has irrationally vowed to basically burn most of the infrastructure that's given them a decent life. Given that we now live in this world, I was wrong. So, what makes you think these people are "too comfortable" to start shooting women, gay people, and folks who fail the paper bag test? Again, I'm not trying to be snarky or rude - if you have reassurances, please, please talk about them. I'm not a straight white man, and I am scared.
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Nov 28, 2016 20:59
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SaTaMaS posted:Have race relations really changed that much in the past 8 or 16 years? If things went back to how they were with Dubya, what would the difference be? Obama's election and the subsequent failure of America to instantly pitch headlong into barbarism changed the framing slightly, mostly not to white supremacists' favor. Lately America's several thousand Nazi reenactor nerdlingers featured on CNN so now people whose entire exposure to politics is what gets shown on CNN think that the country is overrun with Nazis. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 20:59
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Similar to the class war, the race war has been going on for generations in America. In Trump's America it will get hotter since it won't just be cops killing minorities with impunity. On the plus side, we're due for another Superman reboot. Maybe the Man of Steel can beat the Klan again.
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Nov 29, 2016 08:39
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A somali muslim stabbed a bunch of people, is it part of Trumps plan ??
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Nov 29, 2016 09:08
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If a race war starts in America, it will be because of minorities being so overcome with irrational fear that they will end up protesting in increasingly violent ways. There are already enough cases of people making up fake hate crimes (hajib attack in Louisiana, etc). In other words, it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy if anything. Many of the same people that voted Obama in for two terms are the same people who decided Hillary was a crap candidate and would rather stomach Trump. Trump isn't some magical mandate for OMG-RACISM. Hillary just sucked so bad that she lost. That's it. Heck, the Podesta emails seem to show that she shouldn't even have been the Democratic nominee, but they did everything possible to ensure Bernie would lose. As for the Alt-Right, it's just a blanket name for a group of people. There isn't any real coordinated "Alt-Right" movement. The Media is in such a fervor to find a boogeyman that any group claiming to be an Alt-Right representative is taken seriously and given coverage. So, yeah. If you want to prevent a Race War, stop getting worked up about it. Nothing has really changed.
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Nov 29, 2016 09:37
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cult member at airport posted:1. Are Nationalist and Racist ideologies going to become more prominent and powerful in the coming years? What about openly racist politicians or political parties? I think so. The regime which will take power next year relied heavily on exploiting racial tensions in order to attain power. Race hate will be a central point of discussion for the duration of Trump's first term. Racial tensions will continue to mesmerize the US for at least 4 years. There are already openly racist politicians and political parties. cult member at airport posted:2. What is racist culture like? What are the subcultures among racists? Are they just a fringe minority or do they have a significant influence in the USA and overseas? Who are their figureheads? I donno cult member at airport posted:3. What is the extent of racism among groups like UKIP, Front National, and the Alt RIght? Is everyone aware of the racism but they’ve just learned to use Euphemisms to cover up their prejudice? Or do they genuinely believe they’re not racists? They are aware of the racism, and do not use 'euphemisms' to cover up prejudice. They openly espouse bigoted ideas. They may or may not cop to being racist, and/or genuinely believe they are or are not racist depending on any given individual or social group. The word simply has no meaning in the media, nor apparently, to you. cult member at airport posted:4. Among the racist subculture, what groups are they more or less racist too? Are they all “all-or-nothing” racists or are some them okay with black people but against Arabs? Donno, it would be best to ask them. But probably no one will cop to these ideologies on this board. cult member at airport posted:5. Do these people take fake conservative news sources seriously? Could they be susceptible to racist propaganda spread by various hate groups? Donno, it would be best to ask them. But probably no one will cop to these ideologies on this board. cult member at airport posted:6. How improbable is the scenario I laid out above? Before you ask, yes I've already read that frontpage article. A doomsday scenario race war is highly improbable. The racial / cultural / ethnic divide has always been a tool of subjugation which the rulers of society use to mesmerize their subjugates. It has no legs on its own due to its obvious absurdity, and the discomfort and inconvenience it introduces to people's lives. I suppose there is a possibility that race hate could grow beyond the control of the ruling class, but this is highly unlikely given the overwhelming power at their disposal. If there were ever a large scale conflict predicated on race hate that threatened to keep people out of work, it would be crushed with uncanny efficacy. Race riots and racial violence are only permissible if they are destroying the lives and communities of people who don't matter, so as to keep the populace and confused and angry at each other. It will not be allowed to go farther than that.
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Nov 29, 2016 11:16
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ixcthu posted:As for the Alt-Right, it's just a blanket name for a group of people. What else was it going to be? What was the other option?
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Nov 29, 2016 13:28
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ixcthu posted:If a race war starts in America, it will be because of minorities being so overcome with irrational fear that they will end up protesting in increasingly violent ways. There are already enough cases of people making up fake hate crimes (hajib attack in Louisiana, etc). Tell me more about how those rational whites would never instigate any kind of racial violence. 
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Nov 29, 2016 13:50
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Gazpacho posted:I think unemployment in the US would have to be a lot higher than it is for the scenario to play out. will this century have a strongman like FDR to take things back from the brink though
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Nov 29, 2016 14:08
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Automation is going to put a fuckload of lower and highly educated workers out of employmentand not just minorities. poo poo is going to get tense, till we have enough robo cops on every street corner.
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Nov 29, 2016 15:51
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cult member at airport posted:I haven’t experienced too much blatant racism in my life, but that’s largely because I’ve always lived in multicultural areas around Toronto. I can’t say I’ve honestly ever feared for my life because of my skin color. I wonder if in the eyes of any of my white friends, coworkers, and neighbors, I am “one of the good ones”, because I’m westernized and don’t have an accent. Honestly, it's mostly white people I've known who are the most surprised by the open racism. Every POC I know is kind of like "Yeah, this is what people say".
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Nov 29, 2016 15:57
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:What else was it going to be? What was the other option? like Cobra but with worse dress sense
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Nov 29, 2016 16:19
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 Pure bait. I can already predict the follow-up tweet when some idiot falls for it. "Anti-Trump protestors burn American flag just like ISIS! Sad!"  One thing I'd like to discuss is the overlap in goals between Islamophobes and Muslim extremists - both want Muslims living in the west to feel unsafe and alienated. The former presumably wants them to self-deport while the latter wants them to turn to radicalism. How is this going to play out in the next 4 years? Should we expect an increase in organized or lone wolf style terrorist attacks, and what will be the response from President Trump and white nationalists? Is the Muslim immigration ban likely to pick up steam and become a mainstream position for the GOP?
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Nov 29, 2016 16:44
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:That's what people said 100 years ago
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Nov 29, 2016 17:10
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why would Trump care about a vegan restaurant, op?
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Nov 29, 2016 19:12
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little munchkin posted:why would Trump care about a vegan restaurant, op? He would never care, but he'd probably take advantage of the situation and pretend to care because it gets him media attention.
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Nov 29, 2016 22:43
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Gail Wynand posted:You can't have a real pogrom without state involvement in some way. Until Sheriff Joe's Deportation Posse starts getting set up there's no need to worry much. I agree for the most part, though the Rwandan genocide was a bit of a mixed bag between political and civilian groups enacting it. But the main reason it won't happen is because Trump is way too loving lazy to do jack poo poo about anything.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:19
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cult member at airport posted:2. What is racist culture like? What are the subcultures among racists? Are they just a fringe minority or do they have a significant influence in the USA and overseas? Who are their figureheads? Conservative agitprop is absolutely taken seriously. What, you don't read internet comment feeds? Gail Wynand posted:You can't have a real pogrom without state involvement in some way.
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Nov 30, 2016 06:00
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Gazpacho posted:I can't guess what you're referring to unless you're equating the madness of crowds to actions undertaken in military service during WW1 and why would you do that?
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Nov 30, 2016 06:03
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:in the 1910s and 1920s, the distribution of wealth was as similarly lopsided as it is today, stocks and GDP remaining sky high, obscuring the real problem as the common human is reduced to eating rat stew Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 06:24
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Gazpacho posted:I don't think anyone in or around 1916 was saying "just wait a few years until we have a major economic catastrophe with double-digit unemployment that drives the most vicious nationalist hatred the world has ever seen" but w/e That's because they were busy dying in trenches.
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Nov 30, 2016 07:23
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Okay so cool nobody has an answer other than ignoring a request for real data. Great!!!!!!!!
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Nov 30, 2016 08:35
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Shbobdb posted:That's because they were busy dying in trenches.  claim about what was being said they can maybe provide a source or otherwise come back to the here and now.
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Nov 30, 2016 08:50
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Gazpacho posted:I think it's safe to say that none of us were around then to hear what people were saying and if someone wants to make a While he wrote Drei Komeraden in 1936, Remarque had some words to say about how he felt about the awkward teen years of the 1900s.
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Nov 30, 2016 08:58
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