|
I think I may have gone off the deep end. My previous DD was a 2013 Genesis Coupe - 3.8L 6MT r-spec. I really liked it, but after owning it for a few years I wanted something a little bit bigger with a bit more torque. That, and the aftermarket is not very big for the V6 compared to the 4 cylinder. I wasn't even really looking to change things up TBH, but I found out that you could get a used Caprice for about the same price range as what my Genesis was worth, it was hard not to look deeper at them. It's a lot of car for the money, both literally and figuratively. 6.0L V8, 6 speed auto, RWD barge. For those not familiar, the 2011-2013 Caprice is basically a rebadged Holden brought over to the USA. They weren't offered for sale to the public, only sold to Police departments. A few snuck out private sale but for the most part you can only find them at auction or from someone who already got it from auction. The car is basically the same as the VE Commodore, but it is the long wheelbase version, so it is the WM chassis (Sold in AUS as the Statesman/Caprice). The 2014+ Caprices are on the VF/WN chassis, the same as the Chevy SS (but longer of course). Most of the chassis, brakes, and driveline parts are interchangeable with the Pontiac G8. Some parts are beefed up a bit for Police duty. Interior wise, the console from a G8 bolts right in, albeit with a few different trim pieces as the dash in the Caprice is the Series II version and the G8 is a Series I. When I got the car, I knew at a minimum I was going to change out the interior to make it a 'normal' car. Aside from that, I didn't realize how far the rabbit hole would go. Some of this is a rehash, some of it is fresh for you guys. There aren't a lot of these cars for sale privately, so if you want a nice one you will likely need to travel. I live in FL, but found a nice one private party in TX. Tickets are cheap enough provided the car isn't a turd when you get there. We worked out a deal and I drove it back home. Here is the pic from the FS ad  Immediately after getting it regged back home I found somebody parting out a G8. Made the trip and dropped a few hundred dollars and picked up most of the interior from it. I got the front and rear seats, the carpet, the center console, and the shifter. This will replace the factory vinyl floor, no console, and cloth seats. Had to order a few Caprice specific parts to mate the dash and console but everything lines up and looks factory.  Before  During  After After owning the car for about a month, I realized there were some other pretty easy upgrades I could do - brakes and suspension. The Caprice struts are actually an upgrade for the G8 guys, but mine were worn after 60k of Police duty. I put new struts and mounts on all 4 corners, with some Chevy SS springs. This keeps a factory like ride. They're a little softer than the Caprice springs and drop the car .5"-.75". There is also a very cheap brake upgrade path - the first gen CTS-V brakes. I was able to get everything for right about $600. Pads, rotors, calipers, hardware. I got an amazing deal on the calipers but even if I didn't they aren't very expensive. Large 4 piston aluminum calipers with 14" rotors in the front, and smaller 4 piston aluminum calipers with 14" rotors in the rear. Fits nicely under the 18" wheels.   Here is how she was at that point  Slight lowering + brake upgrade Around this time is when I think I started to lose it.
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 23:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 21:44 |
|
|
Your cops must be loaded if they can throw out a car after 60k mi.FuzzKill posted:Around this time is when I think I started to lose it.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 23:25
|
|
|
Fuzzkill threads are always great. Pre-emptively voted 5 and can't wait to see what you did to this car. VV Oh gently caress yes Previa_fun fucked around with this message at 23:41 on May 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 23:26
|
|
|
While waiting for the Genesis to sell I jumped in it to take it for a spin to keep the battery topped up and to everything from sitting for too long. I .... missed it. I was torn. Upon some deep self reflection I realized what I was really missing. A manual transmission. An idea was had. Plans were made. Dollars flew. I figured I would look at my Holden brother, the G8, and see what is involved in a manual transmission swap. As it turns out, it is very involved. Not one to back down from a challenge, I started figuring out what I would need and how I would get it. Bare minimum, I would need a TR6060 transmission, clutch, flywheel, and about $1000 more between the harness, shifter, interior bits, pedals, hydraulics, etc. You can put together a swap from the dealer with a tranny for about $5000 in parts. That seems like a lot.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 23:30
|
|
|
I kept an eye out for good deals on what I needed - but something else was conflicting in my head. The Caprice comes with a 6.0L L77 aluminum V8. Rated at ~360hp. The engine has cylinder deactivation - it uses special lifters to shut off 4 cylinders in low load situations. Great idea in theory, and it does increase highway MPG's by a significant amount. There is a drawback of course. The lifters are prone to failure - and usually take out the cam with it. On the LS family of motors, changing the lifters requires pulling the cylinder heads. Not a quick or easy job. If I was going to keep the engine, I would want to remove the DOD and replace the lifters. Do I really want to do that much work and spend that much money on a motor that is only going to be at ~400hp after all that? A 'regular' LS2 6.0L makes 400hp. An LS3 6.2L makes 415-435hp. The L77 actually uses the superior LS3 heads but yet makes less power than an LS2 due to the compression ratio and cam. Around the same time this was all dancing around in my head, I found a really good deal on an LS3/TR6060 dropout from a 2011 Camaro SS. My fate was sealed.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 23:41
|
|
|
FuzzKill posted:While waiting for the Genesis to sell I jumped in it to take it for a spin to keep the battery topped up and to everything from sitting for too long. God drat, FuzzKill cars are awesome. Can't wait to see how this engs up, I'm betting on forced induction after the manual.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 00:02
|
|
EVERYWHERE 
|
3 months in, and now I am about to undertake a complete drivetrain swap on my daily driver. What am I doing?! The parts acquisition phase started. First up, was the largest part of the swap. Donor LS3/TR6060 dropout from a 2011 Camaro SS.  Next, the rear end had to be addressed. The G8 and Caprice share the same 2.92:1 rear diff. Other ratios for the housing are not around. The Camaro SS oddly enough has a different differential assembly, but it is a direct bolt in swap to the Caprice. Auto Camaros came with a 3.27:1, while the manual SS gets a 3.45:1. I opted for the latter. Other ratios are available for this diff and it drops right in place.  I couldn't leave well enough alone, and a cam swap is trivial when the engine is out of the car. I wanted a little lope but not something too crazy. I got a 'mild' cam. 225/236 .629/.615. Don't have any pictures before the install but we all know what a camshaft looks like. Dual valve springs, new seals, retainers, and pushrods. Finally, I had to round up an order from GM. These included a GXP harness, shifter, boot, clutch pedal assembly, brake pedal assembly, clutch master, clutch hose, and some misc parts. All of these parts are for a G8 GXP by application.  This swap is a bit of uncharted territory. There are a handful of G8 manual swaps, but the G8 is a series I VE, and the Caprice is a series II. There are 4-5 years of production and model variations that have to be dealt with. Nevermind the fact that this combination wasn't ever offered here - or anywhere I think. I know you could get a VE 6MT, but I don't know if the Statesman/Caprice ever came with a 6MT. I know of two swaps on a Caprice - one has all the parts but hasn't started yet and the other has been completed. I have high expectations of my cars - especially on my daily. The end result can't have any driveability issues, be too loud, harsh, or look hacked. Needs to be a good driver and look OEM for me to be happy. That being said, the swap was underway. 
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 00:31
|
|
|
loving baller, dude. Super excited to see more progress!
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 00:50
|
|
|
holyshit gently caress yes.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 01:04
|
|
|
There was no such thing as a manual Caprice, that is correct. Most other Commodores had the manual option on all other models including other LWB models like the Sportswagon and Ute. Interesting to see how you pair it to the ECU. I know the local mechanics had a bitch of a time getting a fuel pump to talk
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 01:46
|
|
|
The G8 people that have done the swap seem insistent on sourcing the GXP TR6060 as opposed to the Camaro TR6060. The GXP trans is not going to be found anywhere other than the dealer, GXPs are rare to begin with nevermind finding a wrecked one. Wrecked Camaros aren't hard to come by. The main difference is the length of the transmission. The Camaro unit has a one piece bellhousing/front plate. The GXP unit has a separate front plate and bellhousing. Overall length is different by an inch or so - and they are both longer than the 6L80E transmission they are replacing. Since my chassis is pretty much identical from the B pillar forward, I was a bit wary about the Camaro transmission fitting properly. We'll get back to that in a bit. The removal of the stock powertrain was pretty simple. AC recovered, fluids drained, hoses and wiring disconnected, exhaust removed, driveshaft removed, and it's pretty much ready to drop out. I set the subframe down on some jackstands, undid all the bolts, and then lifted the body up off of it.    Then is was a matter of lifting the powertrain off of the cradle. I set it down on a dolly, and compared it against the new setup. I went ahead and swapped the new cam into the LS3 before I got it ready to put into the car. The L77 uses an accessory drive that sits very close to the block while the LS3 Camaro sticks way out. I swapped the accessory drive over from one engine to the other after the cam swap was complete.   Cam/valvetrain swap complete Around this time I took some measurements of the two trannys and realized that my crossmember wasn't going to be close enough to work. Ordered an M6 crossmember for a Chevrolet SS, pretty sure it's the same part number as the GXP crossmember.  Another thing I noticed were the factory oil coolers. Both engines come equipped, but they are not the same. Wasn't planning on removing it, so I swapped the two oil coolers around so that my factory hoses work. I think the LS3 cooler would have interfered with the motor mount stand, which is probably why the Caprice oil cooler is farther rearward on the block/pan than the LS3 unit.  LS3 Camaro cooler  L77 Caprice cooler With those things sorted, I installed the new wiring harness. I've never installed a new factory harness before, it was oddly satisfying that every push clip and pin had an obvious and secure mounting point. The powertrain was pretty much ready to go at this point - but there was a lot more work to do still. 
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 02:15
|
|
|
The physical part of the swap was the easy part, not much to screw up there. Electrical is a different story. Using the 2009.5 GXP harness gave me the correct engine and trans wiring - and the main connections to the body and fuse block are the same connector. That's about where it stops though. The two things that jump out are that the Caprice uses 3 heavy duty cooling fan relays mounted external to the fuse box - and thus they have a engine harness connector. The G8 uses the same 3 relays, but they are micro relays inside the fuse block. So that wiring has to be removed and repinned using the factory pigtail. The other thing that is quick to notice is the AC compressor wiring. The G8 uses a single 2 pin connector while the Caprice uses 2 two pin connectors. Comparing the factory wiring schematics this is a pretty simple fix as well, adding one wire from the body side into the engine harness plug. There are several other things that needed addressing as well, luckily the guy that did the other Caprice conversion was very helpful in letting me know ahead of time of the other issues I was going to run into. The G8 uses a 3 wire brake pedal sensor, and it has a factory plug under the dash for the clutch pedal sensor (also 3 wire). The Caprice uses a 6 wire brake pedal sensor, and has no pigtail for the CPP. Amazingly, the 3 extra wires in the BPP circuit route to the same location in the body harness as the CPP does on the G8 so it's just a matter of splicing. Additional wiring also had to be added for the reverse lights, and speedo sensor on the body side. Also, while on the electrical aspect, the factory ECM gets an OK to start the engine from the TCM (presumably once it communicates that it is in park/neutral). The TCM is internal to the transmission on the automatic, and will of course no longer be there. On a factory manual equipped car, the ECM gets a starter signal from the BCM after the BCM verifies that the clutch is depressed. There is no factory config available for my BCM that would work, because if I were to just use a Commodore VIN and program my BCM (which may or may not work) the radio would lock out from the mismatched VIN. And I can't program my radio with a Commodore VIN because the hardware is different. I do have a Tech2 but there is no factory route with this. I have seen someone leave the TCM wired in, which just seems wrong to me. There is a guy that does custom BCM programming for late model GM's. I sent in a spare BCM, and he flashed it to a good config for me. I imagine it is basically a GXP BCM program with my Caprice VIN, but I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than that.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 02:33
|
|
|
Once all that crap was out of the way, I had one more thing to do before dropping the body back onto the engine: the clutch pedal. I removed the entire brake pedal assembly to make room and pulled the booster out of the way. The pedal assembly mounts to both the dash frame and the firewall, so if you bolt it to the dash frame you can figure out where it hits the firewall and make your template that way. Before I could get that into place though, there was a huge steel bracket in the way that supported the factory foot parking brake. The US Caprice is the only car on this chassis with a foot brake, and it just routes the cable along the firewall, down the console, and under the body in the same location as every other Commodore. Removing the pedal was easy, but the bracket is welded onto the dash frame and was pretty thick. Not quite enough room for a saw, so I used a dremel and a lot of cursewords and it came out just as I was running out of both. All things considered it was no fun under the dash but I imagine it could have gone worse. I pulled the driver seat out so I could just lay down while working on it. Here is the extra pedal mounted up along with the smaller brake pedal  And of course it wouldn't be right without the proper pedal covers (except the gas pedal, which is only sold as an assembly  ) Now we're ready to assemble!
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 02:44
|
|
|
The body dropped back on the engine and transmission without much fanfare. I went to go install the shifter and that's when I stopped having fun. The shifter on the TR6060 is remote mounted. It bolts to the body and then has two legs that go to the tranny and a center linkage. I could get the shifter in place, but as you raise the tailshaft up it pushes the shifter backwards. If I were to disassemble the shifter, bolt it into place, and then lift up the tranny I could get everything into place but it would be shoved way back in the shifter hole and would be putting stress on things that aren't designed like that. I'm pretty sure if I had found a GXP TR6060, I wouldn't have had this issue. But, it cost me a few hours and $40 to modify what I had so...I opted to modify the shifter. When you tear down the shifter this is the bare frame you end up with.  You can't cut the legs shorter, or you lose the right mounting width. The only option to shorten it is at the base before the two legs separate. If you look in the pic you can see my scribe marks I made. I cut that section out and then brought it to a local welder. I can't do aluminum. This is what I ended up with  I shortened the linkage by about the same amount, and welded it up. Sure enough, that was exactly what it needed. With the shifter permanently mounted, I went to go install the transmission mount and crossmember. Same problem. It's possible to bolt it in place but it puts a load on the mount trying to pull the rubber mount. Not good. There was an easy enough solution though. There is a small adapter bracket that goes between the transmission and the mount, and it is offset. When I flip it around the other way, the tranny mount is exactly where it needs to be. Of course, the bracket is made so that it can only be installed one direction. I was able to clearance it and the transmission mount and get it all into place. Everything bolted in, fluids added, I did some preliminary electrical tests ... everything seems good so far
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 02:59
|
|
|
I went from not worrying about getting the driveshaft done quickly to oh poo poo I need a driveshaft. The OAL length of the trans is about 2 5/8" longer, so I dropped off my shaft to get it shortened by a shop. While waiting, I made good use of my time. I ordered a cat-back exhaust system for a G8. I knew it would bolt up, but I also knew it would be too short. Sure enough, it needs to be lengthened a few inches in the mid section and about 6" on the tips. All the hangers line up.  The Magnaflow system comes with two sets of slip joints. Instead of welding in an extra section of pipe in the mid section, I pulled the slip joints almost all the way out and then welded them together, giving me the extra length I needed there. When bolted up on the car, this is how it looks.  I cut the tips off and lengthened them out the required amount. One side was easier than the other, one of them had no straight section of pipe leading to me having to cut it on one of the weld beads. Here is how it ended up  At some point around this time I swapped the diff as well while I was waiting on the driveshaft and installed poly bushings in the new unit. As soon as I finished my busy work, I got the call that my shaft was ready.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 03:09
|
|
|
FuzzKill posted:my shaft was ready.  Glad to see another FuzzKill project.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 04:55
|
|
|
I freakin' love Fuzzkill threads so much
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 05:39
|
|
|
Just catching up to this. Holy poo poo man.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 15:00
|
|
|
You are a madman, fuzz. Do you still have the Honda ATV?
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 15:26
|
|
|
this is amazing
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 18:00
|
|
|
FuzzKill posted:There is a drawback of course. The lifters are prone to failure - and usually take out the cam with it. On the LS family of motors, changing the lifters requires pulling the cylinder heads. Not a quick or easy job. If I was going to keep the engine, I would want to remove the DOD and replace the lifters. Do I really want to do that much work and spend that much money on a motor that is only going to be at ~400hp after all that? The best thought process, as long as your wallet survives 
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 18:24
|
|
|
FuzzKill posted:Wrecked Camaros aren't hard to come by. This really should have been part of the thread title.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2017 03:06
|
|
|
Absolutely phenomenal, and excellent photo/documentation, as well. That's a nice Blue Devil you have, too.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2017 03:37
|
|
|
Terrible Robot posted:I freakin' love Fuzzkill threads so much Not an empty quote 
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2017 19:12
|
|
|
dreesemonkey posted:You are a madman, fuzz. Do you still have the Honda ATV? Yes, current stable (not counting for sale vehicles) Caprice Colorado 240Z Foreman 450 Zero turn mower Most of the swap was ready to go at this point. Got the shaft installed - just barely! Should have had it shortened a 1/4" more but it fits! Reinstalled the exhaust for the last time. Electrically, most everything seemed OK as it started right up. I did have some issues, but nothing I couldn't figure out. I changed my configuration to mirror that of a stock Camaro or 6MT GXP, but the computer didn't work properly. Issues present with Caprice ECM ECM does not recognize input from clucth pedal sensor Cannot perform clutch pedal learn as a result Reverse lockout solenoid is always engaged, requiring extra effort to shift into reverse Reverse lights do no function IPC indicates the vehicle is in 'P' for park always I tried quite a few things but I think that the Caprice OS on the ECM isn't capable of dealing with the MT. I can tell the ECM that the car has an MT, that doesn't mean it knows what to do with it. After some trial and error I got a blank ECM for a GXP and ECM recognizes CPP input ECM can complete the CPP learn Reverse lockout solenoid works as intended Reverse lights work IPC indicates no gear, unless reverse is selected and then it displays 'R' I can do a side by side compare of the ECM tunes between the Caprice and the GXP and make them identical and the issue stays the same. So I figure either There is some hardware incompatibility (unlikely as this hardware is used in MT vehicles) There are other tables effecting the transmission operation/relation that are not accessible or mapped in HPT The OS itself has some incompatibility Not really a concern now, as the BCM and other modules don't seem to care that I have a GXP ECM. No warning lights on the dash, no odd issues, no drive ability concerns, etc. I've put almost 1000 miles on it since the swap was completed. Despite the displacement increase, gear change, and the cam, highway MPG dropped by only 1MPG. This was after about 5 miles city and 100 miles highway  VIDEO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwdzTdPi1lk
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2017 03:08
|
|
|
This is bonkers. You're a madman.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2017 06:44
|
|
|
Rhyno posted:This is bonkers. Pot, meet kettle. But I agree.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2017 06:50
|
|
|
Dat lope.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2017 07:06
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 05:15
|
|
|
So the supercharger is coming, right?
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2017 06:12
|
|
|
Thanks for sharing in my madness. I do have an LSA blower sitting around, originally it was intended to go onto my truck, but I got sidetracked a bit in boosting the Datsun instead. The LSA is right at home in either vehicle ...
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2017 01:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 21:44 |
|
|
I don't know about your hood, but if you drove through Detroit in that thing you wouldn't get 10 miles without getting 50 offers for it. I still see an old SS Impala almost every day.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2017 02:37
|
|
