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I posted in the car recommendation thread and got some good feedback, but there was one aspect which I think needs more investigation. One of the factors that I mentioned in there was my current car chirping/spinning the front wheels more easily than I'd like, and we never really concluded why. In terms of buying a new car I'd like to nail down if possible whether it's a problem with the car or with me or just a thing that happens so I can take it into account properly. The details: - 04/05 UK manual 6 speed FWD Honda Civic EP3 Type R, which I believe is the K20A2 engine. - Front wheels will chirp/spin at anything other than a conscious, smooth, controlled start. They require very little provocation and it frequently happens by accident when I'm not 100% focused. - Continental Sport Contact 4 tyres. - Issue happens in all weather and road conditions - Issue happens both on brand new tyres and with some wear. Also happened with whatever tyres the PO had on when I bought it. - Have not had this problem with any other car I've driven before or since, including my previous daily driver which was an 05 UK manual 5 speed FWD Honda Civic EP3 Type S, K20A3 engine, Continental Sport Contact 2 tyres. One other symptom that may or may not be related is kangarooing in the bottom two gears. My options are always to either let the car set its speed with the clutch fully out and no gas, or to provide significant amounts of gas and control speed through letting on and off. Anything inbetween (including the car engine braking in those gears) will lead to a back and forth oscillation with accompanying engine sounds. (to me this shouts "busted engine mounts" but I'm a computer fiddler not a car wrangler) The answer I'm trying to get to is a) is there a problem with the car, and thus should I be ignoring this issue with regard to looking at new cars and place less weight on e.g. all wheel drive b) is this just a thing that happens in the small increment between the power/drivetrain of the type S and that of the type R, and thus is it something I'll just need to manage in all "high" power cars and try to reduce through clutch control, and tyre and drive choice c) something else I'm confident that my driving style has not materially changed in the last 8 years so I'd be very surprised if I'm suddenly doing something drastically wrong that I wasn't before, but I'm open to the possibility. Edit: I decided not to put this in a megathread as there was enough discussion without consensus in the car rec thread that I don't think it'll be a quick answer. Jaded Burnout fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Jul 18, 2017 |
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Jul 18, 2017 12:49
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Have you had this car since new? Has anything been tuned or buggered around with?
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Jul 18, 2017 13:26
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I bought it at the end of 2014, by which point it was around 10 years old. It had ~45k of London miles on it including "a few spirited trips to the south of france", it's now at 55-60k. I've done nothing other than install a new radio, I have no reason to believe the PO did either. He had it dealer serviced up until I bought it. The engine idle sound is starting to get a bit clackety and it sometimes resists going into first, but otherwise no issues I know about and nothing that's come up in subsequent MOTs or services. Edit: the PO was very much a DINKY equivalent of a Rugby dad, I read him as driving a bit fast sometimes but definitely not a boy racer. Various parts of London have speed bumps which scrape what I think is the oil pan or at least thereabouts, but I've specifically asked mechanics to double check that there's no serious damage and nothing's been reported. Various other bits of internal wear too but just signs of age (loose electric windows, seatbelts). Jaded Burnout fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Jul 18, 2017 |
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Jul 18, 2017 13:50
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Howdy! Has the clutch ever been replaced?
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Jul 18, 2017 14:21
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Adiabatic posted:Howdy! Has the clutch ever been replaced? You and me...we are like that <crosses fingers together>
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Jul 18, 2017 14:23
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That's a negative, I'd have to dig through the sheaf of service histories (which I can do if needed) but he made no mention of it and I've not done it. To my knowledge no major repairs or services of that scale have happened as it's relatively low mileage.
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Jul 18, 2017 14:35
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Let some friends drive the car and see if they do it too.
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Jul 18, 2017 19:53
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It's possibly a duff engine mount allowing movement and driveline snatch/shunt. Lower ones on FWD cars are often easily tired out. If you open the bonnet and properly try to shove the engine back and forth, what happens? The entire car trying to roll forward and backward is good, the engine alone swinging like a fat man in a hammock is bad.
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Jul 19, 2017 09:30
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InitialDave posted:If you open the bonnet and properly try to shove the engine back and forth, what happens? The entire car trying to roll forward and backward is good, the engine alone swinging like a fat man in a hammock is bad. Parked it on the flat and gave the engine a reet good shove from different directions. The whole car shifted on its suspension and as far as I could tell the engine was moving in sync with the chassis.
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Jul 19, 2017 12:43
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Ok, shouldn't be that, then. No evidence of suspension issues - feeling loose/clattery over rough surfaces, strange tyre wear etc? A suspension issue could possibly cause tramping off the line, but it wouldn't make the engine sound worse, and I'd expect you'd feel it generally.
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Jul 19, 2017 13:09
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Felt normal during the shoving and still drives well with a touch of understeer as you might expect. No clattering or juddering and runs over dips on the motorway peak and dip as you'd expect. I don't check the tyres regularly so I've not seen unusual wear, but I'll take a look. Nothing reported in services last year.
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Jul 19, 2017 14:05
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I'd suggest finding a friendly garage and asking them to take it for a short test run. Another possible problem could be the Throttle Position Sensor - i.e. the bit in the accelerator pedal that tells the car how much gas you are giving it.
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Jul 19, 2017 14:19
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Yeah it's not a bad idea. I've just had a recommendation on a local Honda specialist so I'll give them a call and report back. I'd be wary of taking it to any old garage because (much like the other two I talked to about this stuff) they're probably too general to nail it down.
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Jul 19, 2017 16:17
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Honestly you need to get a mate to drive it and see if they get the same issue. Don't tell them what you're looking for though, just say you need to listen to something when you're not concentrating on driving.
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Jul 20, 2017 10:48
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Most of my friends are London diehards and can't drive, and I wouldn't trust the ones that do to be able to identify or even replicate the issues. My mates are not car people.
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Jul 20, 2017 11:37
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Jaded Burnout posted:Most of my friends are London diehards and can't drive, and I wouldn't trust the ones that do to be able to identify or even replicate the issues. My mates are not car people. Kwikfit Halfords MOT test centre Just ask them to take a look. In fact, any friendly MOT tester should be able to give a good answer for the price of a nice smile and a promise to get your MOT done there.
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Jul 20, 2017 12:33
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Just as a weird extra data point, I disabled all of the TCS stuff in my Focus ST this morning and unless I was really doing a 3k RPM+ hard launch my fairly worn out Goodyear Eagle F1s were just fine on dry pavement. There's something probably going on with your car. You don't need a car person to figure this out for you for a test drive, you just need someone who can drive.
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Jul 20, 2017 12:43
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Yes, they drive, you listen from the passenger seat. If it happens every time it's the car, if it only happens when you drive...
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Jul 20, 2017 14:47
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To be clear as to why I don't think any old driver will be useful, if we're still talking about the tyre spinning I'm very capable of preventing it from happening if I'm extra gentle with the clutch/gas, so putting someone who's unfamiliar with this specific model in the seat isn't going to help because they won't be used to the clutch and are just as likely to overdo it as to underdo it. It seems to me like I'd not get any useful information that I don't already know. Either all Civic Rs are like this or this one is "special", how is putting someone used to driving a Citroen in there going to help me figure out which one it is? The point of me seeing the benefit in the local specialist is the guy races these cars and knows for sure what their normal behaviour is, and will be able to tell quickly if there's something up. Case in point, I've brought up these things to proper independent but quite general garage mechanics twice already and broadly got shrugs in return. Edit: sorry upon re-reading that sounds aggressively defensive, I do appreciate your help but in this case I'm at a loss to how it would help Jaded Burnout fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 18:00
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Check the clutch but putting it in high gear (6th?) at around 1000 RPM and go wide open. If the RPM rises quickly, clutch is probably shot. Knee jerk reaction is clutch as well. When was it last aligned? How much is left on the tires? Edit: Sorry, UK. Tyres. 
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Jul 20, 2017 18:25
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Maybe see if there's a club/forum meet for Civic owners somewhere convenient? Good source of people who are familiar with them and comparable examples.
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Jul 20, 2017 18:35
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As a Honda owner. You have 1. A need for new front suspension. Hit a bump, it moves up. You feel less bump. Now on flat ground, torque load that same spring force (driving), That rotational force can through friction (traction) drive the wheel forward aka movement or overcome the shocks spring force and generate wheel hop. wheel > shock / bushings > drive axle > transmission-y stuff > engine mounts 2. You were asked to push the engine and see if you could move it by hand. You can also put on the safety brake, chock the wheels (leave the car in neutral). Then with the hood open blip the throttle if you see engine movement. There you go.
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Jul 20, 2017 18:42
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Larrymer posted:Check the clutch but putting it in high gear (6th?) at around 1000 RPM and go wide open. If the RPM rises quickly, clutch is probably shot. I will do this and report back, thanks. Larrymer posted:Knee jerk reaction is clutch as well. When was it last aligned? How much is left on the tires? Never, to my knowledge. I'll check the tyre depth also, though I do know it's been the same since they were new. InitialDave posted:Maybe see if there's a club/forum meet for Civic owners somewhere convenient? Good source of people who are familiar with them and comparable examples. This is a good idea, I'll look into it, thanks. I'll also talk to this specialist mechanic since it's due a service anyway, assuming his prices are OK. Slick posted:1. A need for new front suspension. Hit a bump, it moves up. You feel less bump. Now on flat ground, torque load that same spring force (driving), That rotational force can through friction (traction) drive the wheel forward aka movement or overcome the shocks spring force and generate wheel hop. wheel > shock / bushings > drive axle > transmission-y stuff > engine mounts This is a good explanation, thanks. I would not be surprised if 10+ years of London speed bumps have taken their toll. I'll get them checked out. Slick posted:2. You were asked to push the engine and see if you could move it by hand. You can also put on the safety brake, chock the wheels (leave the car in neutral). Then with the hood open blip the throttle if you see engine movement. There you go. I did do the manual pushing, if you're suggesting I do that, results further up in the thread. I'll grab a second pair of eyes and try the other approach too.
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Jul 20, 2017 18:54
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~10mm tread remaining.
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Jul 20, 2017 20:39
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Drive it up to the Midlands and I'll diagnose it for you. You may only have 2-3mm of tread left afterwards though
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Jul 20, 2017 20:53
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Will you also diagnose the crippling depression and black lung I'll get from being within 100 miles of birmingham
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Jul 20, 2017 21:34
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Jaded Burnout posted:Will you also diagnose the crippling depression and black lung I'll get from being within 100 miles of birmingham You're from London so I wouldn't start throwing stones at this particular greenhouse. Even if the glass has a thick layer of soot over it.
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Jul 20, 2017 21:37
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 There's a reason I got out of that hell hole.London dirt is designer dirt.
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Jul 20, 2017 21:45
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I'll take my Midlands dirt at 10% of the cost.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:55
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London is indeed mostly a loving armpit of a city.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:12
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K-series civic shifting weird/clutch grabbiness eh? Has anyone looked at the clutch hydraulics?
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Aug 1, 2017 05:02
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If your in North London I'll drive your car for you op. Are you definitely spinning the wheels up or are you just getting driveline oddness feeling and a chirping noise? track day bro! fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Aug 1, 2017 |
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Aug 1, 2017 11:12
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OP is a character from Fast and Furious and dumps clutch every time.
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Aug 1, 2017 11:23
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Olympic Mathlete posted:OP is a character from Fast and Furious and dumps clutch every time. Not double clutchin like he should
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Aug 1, 2017 12:04
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Olympic Mathlete posted:OP is a character from Fast and Furious and dumps clutch every time. I live my life a quarter mile at a time, because that's how far you can go before there's another roundabout. track day bro! posted:If your in North London I'll drive your car for you op. Sadly no longer. track day bro! posted:Are you definitely spinning the wheels up or are you just getting driveline oddness feeling and a chirping noise? I mean, I don't have a camera outside the car but I'm pretty certain yeah. Its been pissing it down lately so not the best environment for more testing. I'm also super broke right now so I've put further paid investigation on the back burner.
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Aug 1, 2017 12:08
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I know this is AI and this is apparently the best car forum in the world ever, but you might have more luck posting this on https://type-r-owners.co.uk/forums/
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Aug 1, 2017 13:15
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| # ? Apr 19, 2024 13:33 |
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BURN THE HERETIC
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Aug 2, 2017 02:00
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