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I apologize if this rambling is frustrating to read. There needs to be more vocal dissent against the messed up business people get up to in the name of religion on all sides. Let me be anecdotal towards my own experiences. I can speak as a Jew. I see what happens in Israel and it makes me sick to my stomach. I support aaliyah, but I do not support a Jewish state. I do not support any state based off of religion. I'm vocal about it to to the more conservative parts of my family and fellow Jews. You can imagine how disgusted they are and how pissed off they are at me when I say it. But I say it because since I am a Jew I know that what I say has weight to them. Far-right religious movements need to be shouted down. Just being moral yourself is not enough. So here's my question after all that: Do you think that the average Muslim has a duty to protect and promote a pluralistic society? How do you think this aim can be objectively achieved? Is it even possible? Are we all doomed? Ferdinand the Bull fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Aug 28, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 16:06
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How do Muslims generally feel about Buddhists? I realize that's probably complex and varies a lot but I can't help but be curious. Do non Muslims ever go on the hajj and how do actual Muslims respond to that? I can't help but assume some curious people show up or Muslims bring their friends or something. Just how much do Muslims love coffee? My understanding is that alcohol was often either forbidden or discouraged historically but Muslims, being human, still wanted to hang around and be chatty while consuming chemicals that would make them chattier. So they jumped on the coffee train something fierce then added tobacco when it became available later on. Is that correct? Edit: pretty much every religion spins off at least one incredibly bizarre cult. Does Islam have any really unique ones you can think of? ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Sep 5, 2018 |
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Sep 5, 2018 00:11
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Non-Muslims aren't allowed in Mecca so anyone trying to do so would probably have to pretend to be Muslim.
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Sep 5, 2018 01:06
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ToxicSlurpee posted:How do Muslims generally feel about Buddhists? I realize that's probably complex and varies a lot but I can't help but be curious. It's been a while since I understood the main principles of buddhism. But my understanding is that buddhists don't believe in a personal god and follow a belief in reincarnation; two principles that starkly contrast Islamic creed. So just in a cerebral context: thumbs down. Although I'm sure the rohingya have more biting commentary about buddhists. You usually need some statement establishing you are indeed a muslim to enter Mecca, but plenty a people have fabricated such. I know coffee/tea are big in the arab and desi world. I dig a good cup of chai, but that's a personal taste thing. And in regards to kooky cultish stuff, there's quranists, submitters, NOI is pretty off in it's genesis.
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Sep 5, 2018 01:10
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You can see in Sufism the mystic, non-dualistic tradition that you also find in most Buddhism, and you can see in Ma Ba Tha the elements of fanaticism that you also find in the Taliban. This makes sense because every person has the capacity for deep understanding and violent misunderstanding, and in any grouping of twelve or more people, there's going to be at least one person who's showing up for the wrong reasons. That's not to say the particular history and current events of each grouping doesn't matter. Wisdom is not unlike rain in that it comes from a common source, but as soon as it touches the ground, its path is determined by the terrain it falls on. I'd be happy to know more about anyone's relationship with Sufism, though, especially practicing Muslims. Mine is not yet deep. I'm not even aware of any living Sufis. Famous figures like MLK Jr, Thomas Merton, and Thich Nhat Hanh have made the dialog between Christian mystics and Buddhists prominent, but although I hear Rumi and Sufism referenced a lot, I have not actually really encountered a public Muslim non-dualist, a Muslim equivalent to the names mentioned.
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Sep 6, 2018 08:53
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:I apologize if this rambling is frustrating to read. There is, but generally in countries where there is not the immediate need for the distinction. The United States. Canada. Various European countries. People there on average are not particularly in danger of terrorist attack or religious violence of the nature that one sees in other parts of the world. Yes there are random dangers along those lines but they are not facts of lives to the extent that they are in places like Iraq right now. The places where those voices truly, truly matter the most and where that change needs to happen so desperately. As for people in countries that do face that kind of institutionalized or near institutionalized violence, be it tacit approval of extremist terrorists site by the government, or executing religious dissidents, I run into a hard thing there. That is the question of my own courage in such a situation. I was lucky enough to be born into a place, a time, and a family that allowed me to become who I am with regards to religion and the way I explore it and feel about it. I look at this from a very socially look serious standpoint + I have to be aware of that. If I were a woman in Saudi Arabia, looking at the fact that women who nonviolently protested the countries ban on women driving not long before that ban was going to be removed, have been detained, would I be courageous enough to speak out against the religious establishment the hold so much power? Would I be brave enough to do it in a place with a state that functions even less efficiently, like Afghanistan or Iraq? I don't know. It's easy to say yes, until you're faced with the situation. So, while there is an increasingly loud voice from Muslims, both online and in the flesh, it is a dangerous voice to speak in in many parts of the world where would do the most good. So my overall answer to your question is kind of wishy-washy I suppose. The idealistic part of me wants to say yes we all have that obligation to defend the rights of others to live as they please in as much as it affects only themselves. That feels like too awkward a way to say that, but I was trying to find the most non loaded variation. The much more realistic part of me realizes that I come at the thought of this from a very safe place physically, economically, and socially, and I question how much I can judge others who don't have that luxury.
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Sep 10, 2018 23:12
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ToxicSlurpee posted:How do Muslims generally feel about Buddhists? I realize that's probably complex and varies a lot but I can't help but be curious. Non-muslims are not legally allowed in Mecca, but historically it has happened, and probably more people than we realize, they just don't post about it on the internet. It would probably get any Saudi Arabian who helped them in a whole world of poo poo. My guess is that coffee became entwined with Islam primarily because of geography, but I have zero actual fact or knowledge of that, and as I'm currently dictating these to my tablet, I can't quite deal with tabbing and researching. A couple were mentioned, like the quranists and the like. There's also the group whose name I can't remember right now but who the wahhabi apologists on r/islam just loving loathed. I keep wanting to say Yazidis but I don't think that's it.
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Sep 10, 2018 23:21
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Tendai posted:A couple were mentioned, like the quranists and the like. There's also the group whose name I can't remember right now but who the wahhabi apologists on r/islam just loving loathed. I keep wanting to say Yazidis but I don't think that's it.
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Sep 11, 2018 16:35
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Tendai posted:There is, but generally in countries where there is not the immediate need for the distinction. The United States. Canada. Various European countries. People there on average are not particularly in danger of terrorist attack or religious violence of the nature that one sees in other parts of the world. Yes there are random dangers along those lines but they are not facts of lives to the extent that they are in places like Iraq right now. The places where those voices truly, truly matter the most and where that change needs to happen so desperately. True. Good points. Actually, let me rephrase. As a western Jew, I feel that I have a moral obligation to speak out against the racist and exclusionary tendencies of the Israeli government. My separation from the regime gives me the ability to agitate for change in a manner that Israeli Jews cannot. I base this off of the assumption that there are many Israelis who hold my viewpoint that for political reasons cannot speak out. What I am wondering is this: do you feel western Muslims have a moral obligation to speak out against the racist and exclusionary attitudes of SA and the various Gulf States?
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Sep 11, 2018 16:35
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:True. Good points. Actually, let me rephrase.
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Sep 11, 2018 16:52
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Are you thinking of the Druze? Coincidentally, they're an Abrahamic religion that branched from Islam that believes in reincarnation.
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Sep 11, 2018 21:36
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Just how much do Muslims love coffee? My understanding is that alcohol was often either forbidden or discouraged historically but Muslims, being human, still wanted to hang around and be chatty while consuming chemicals that would make them chattier. So they jumped on the coffee train something fierce then added tobacco when it became available later on. Is that correct? The coffee/tea thing is huge in Christian areas in or adjacent to the Middle East as well, so I have to doubt it has major religious origin. Not to mention many Muslims that really wanted to be intoxicated historically did in fact just go and drink alcohol, some still do. Reading back into the historical states and empires of the Muslim world you encounter drinking aplenty, even if it sometimes got repressed by social crusades and more conservative rulers. You even had some Sufis involving alcohol in spiritual practices. I mean heck the two really aren't the same experience to pursue. True blue Mid Eastern coffee is like downing an adderall in liquid form, very different from the slow-down relaxation vibe booze gives.
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Sep 13, 2018 03:02
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Grape posted:The coffee/tea thing is huge in Christian areas in or adjacent to the Middle East as well, so I have to doubt it has major religious origin. Being a big fan of Turkish coffee, I can confirm this.
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Sep 13, 2018 23:46
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Grape posted:The coffee/tea thing is huge in Christian areas in or adjacent to the Middle East as well, so I have to doubt it has major religious origin. Oh, I get that they're different I was just thinking that Islam has things to say about booze but never gave a poo poo about caffeine so it just became a permanent part of the culture. I was reading that coffee shops as they exist now in America are ultimately Muslim in origin if you go back far enough. Periodic supression of one thing and a "meh, whatever" attitude toward the other tends to cement the one. Then again few religions care at all about coffee. Historically a lot of the Muslim world had places to go hang around, drink coffee, and smoke basically as the standard place to go socialize. Like in America we have bars; then and there you had coffee and hookah places. Or at least that was what I read. Can't help but wonder how prevalent that is in contemporary Muslim culture overall. I also drink a lot of coffee so I get curious about it. It's actually very interesting to look at which cultures preferred tea or coffee and why. Then again I've also heard people say things like "my Muslim uncle lives in a country where alcohol is totally banned. He makes wine for himself and his neighbors." I also find it interesting which religions prohibit, discourage, or encourage various substances and why. Alcohol and caffeine seem to just kind of follow people around but alcohol didn't exactly develop a good reputation.
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Sep 14, 2018 23:30
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Historically a lot of the Muslim world had places to go hang around, drink coffee, and smoke basically as the standard place to go socialize. Well that's part of what I'm saying though, that's also a huge thing in the Christian Mediterranean. Those sort of places middle aged grumpy faced dudes congregate, to mutually blacken their lungs, and speed up their heart rate. Italians and Greeks are all about that scene.
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Sep 15, 2018 02:54
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Oh, I get that they're different I was just thinking that Islam has things to say about booze but never gave a poo poo about caffeine so it just became a permanent part of the culture. I was reading that coffee shops as they exist now in America are ultimately Muslim in origin if you go back far enough. Periodic supression of one thing and a "meh, whatever" attitude toward the other tends to cement the one. Then again few religions care at all about coffee. Historically a lot of the Muslim world had places to go hang around, drink coffee, and smoke basically as the standard place to go socialize. Like in America we have bars; then and there you had coffee and hookah places. Or at least that was what I read. Can't help but wonder how prevalent that is in contemporary Muslim culture overall. I also drink a lot of coffee so I get curious about it. It's actually very interesting to look at which cultures preferred tea or coffee and why. I think the only dry country in the middle east is saudi arabia, particularly mecca and medina for good reason, but the rest you can get alcohol very easily. In the UAE there is some laws like requiring a drinking license, though i have never seen anyone produce one or acquire it, and i know many arabs, including my uncle who have been drinking their whole life without getting bothered by police, i keep hearing stories about cop stings, so who knows.
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Sep 15, 2018 23:43
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Tendai posted:Yes, I 100% feel like they do and the significant number of apologists is disgusting. Me too. There is so much ugliness in the world, and generally one has so little control over it. Faith should be about developing inner strength, strengethining bonds in the community. I realize as Muslims and Jews we dont really have a lot of say how our communities are perceived. Thats just how it is I guess. What are some things about Islam that give you hope?
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Sep 19, 2018 01:02
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:I realize as Muslims and Jews we dont really have a lot of say how our communities are perceived. Thats just how it is I guess. I disagree, sort of. I am not Muslim or Jewish; my dad is a Christian pastor in a "mainline" Protestant denomination in the US, so that's where I come from. But anyway, I think every person who is part of a group has some bit of influence about how that group is perceived. By itself, each average person's power in this area will not change the minds of everyone, but I think it is important to remember that no person is powerless. Also I think it is also a commonality of the Abrahamic religions that other people's perception of one's life can be an important thing. If I'm remembering my studies correctly, it is taught to all Jews, Christians, and Muslims that your own personal conduct can be a powerful force. This is often taught in terms of sharing or spreading one's own belief, but I think it's equally applicable to changing how people outside of one's own group view that group 
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Sep 19, 2018 01:47
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:Me too. There is so much ugliness in the world, and generally one has so little control over it. Faith should be about developing inner strength, strengethining bonds in the community. I realize as Muslims and Jews we dont really have a lot of say how our communities are perceived. Thats just how it is I guess. Sorry i know this is more towards Tendai, but a really good thing and one that gives me hope is that muslims in the US have shown to be more progressive and accepting and willing to engage and go against the grain without compromising, its especially important because we simply have no real voice right now except through them. Also had it not been for these forums i probably wouldn't have been exposed really critical leftist resources, media and such, and this has shaped my beliefs considerably into being more cosmopolitan.
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Sep 20, 2018 00:23
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Fizzil posted:Sorry i know this is more towards Tendai, but a really good thing and one that gives me hope is that muslims in the US have shown to be more progressive and accepting and willing to engage and go against the grain without compromising, its especially important because we simply have no real voice right now except through them. Same. These forums have consistently kept me sane in a world gone mad. Yall are part of my community.
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Sep 21, 2018 01:02
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That was lovely to read
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Sep 21, 2018 02:22
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Lutha Mahtin posted:I disagree, sort of. I am not Muslim or Jewish; my dad is a Christian pastor in a "mainline" Protestant denomination in the US, so that's where I come from. But anyway, I think every person who is part of a group has some bit of influence about how that group is perceived. By itself, each average person's power in this area will not change the minds of everyone, but I think it is important to remember that no person is powerless. This is a huge frustration for minority participants in any society as the conduct of each individual is seen as far too reflective of the community as a whole. Being the only black person in a gathering can end up with them being asked to speak for all black people--that kind of thing, and it's a crushing and unfair burden to place on an individual. It's also hard to avoid sometimes since the only way to learn more about people different from oneself is to interact with them. The point when it becomes really toxic is when majority members pressure the minority to support their positions ("My black friend agrees that--") and then uses them as representative of their class. Despite being asked to speak for all of "their kind" the power of the individual to actually change perceptions of their group remains very limited, and they are more likely to simply be considered "one of the good ones." At least so long as they don't challenge majority comfort. Obviously you can sub in "gay" "Jewish" "female" etc depending on the people involved and the dynamic remains similar. This obviously leads to the dilemma of trying to engage with an at-times hostile majority, or remaining within one's community as much as possible, and thus having one's experience remain invisible.
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Oct 16, 2018 16:08
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crosspostin from religion thread: While I'd like to join the succ zone, Danish politics is too insane for me to spare any fucks for the US right now ("Let's have a public referendum to leave the EU - so we can finally gid rid of the UN declaration of human rights obligations towards refugees. What could go wrong!?  ). I hope a lot of the evil men leave power, so you can unfuck your country at least somewhat. I'd rather talk about last night, in which I took my AA men's group to listen to a lecture on Sufi islamic prayer and meditation! The lecturer was Kasper, a Danish convert to sufi islam and a wonderful, huge goon with several degrees in religious science and history who had studied under sufi masters all around the world. His first contact was way before converting, in Damascus. His teacher in speaking arabic invited him to a get-together after mosque (they went to an old mosque located like 7-800 metres from where Paulus fell off his horse), and it turns out to be a "remembrance of God" practice session with a local master. He said the guy looked positively ancient, and gave off a vibe of having existed forever, being really wrinkled and wheelchair-bound. People were chilling, eating candy, and suddenly started singing hymns. Afterwards everyone held hands, repeating the word for God as a mantra, then started swaying, and eventually these 150-200 pound bearded dudes were crying their eyes out, because they remembered God. Some sufi are ascetics (the word fakir, the guys on sheets made of nails and crushed glass, actually derive from the islamic term, fakr for people who starve themselves to know God.), but a lot of people are more chill. His teacher in Singapore was a goonish fellow with a beer gut and a moustache who looked like "the uncle type you could have cake and coffee with, but had a lot of students and a good praxis. Said praxis revolved around good intent: whenever he left the house, he reminded himself that everyone that asked him for help was God leaving a "door ajar", that one could choose to walk through. He may think he valued his money or time too much to help, but that's usually an excuse because his brain and soul are lazy. There are 5 obligatory prayers in islam, salat, but devout sufis cram in an extra late-night prayer, saying God intentionally left that space open for his beloved devotees, putting the scrubs and easily distracted people asleep in that time  Here he added a segue about the value of spiritual discipline, in that God greatly valued good intent and practice. Here it got really interested being in an AA audience, because he essentially repeated many of our tenets almost word for word. Spiritual progress, not perfection is the goal, because even if you don't pray with proper intent or putting your heart in it, you at least pray while realizing you're being a slacker, setting the stage for further development, that sort of thing. The sufis even think that the practice continues beyond death, so life as a devotee is basically just level 0-1 type poo poo. Oh, and the best part is the etymology! Sufi may be derived from the words "men of Wool", because the devout men wore white wool originally, and raw wool will scratch you up and give you eczcema and poo poo, akin to hair shirts worn by christian ecstatics. It may also mean "pure", or even "those who wear purity on top of wool"  the best one, though, is "the guys on your porch". See, the suras tell of people who left everything to behind to travel all the way to Mohammed and be with him, and those guys were housed on a porch to the side of the mosque! The quoran, usually dictating the relation between the believer and god, even takes the time to say to Mohammed he should go hang out with those guys because they know how to know God! tl;dr: The best way to God is the hobos on the bench outside Tias fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 8, 2018 10:51
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This sounds like a really great lecture. My Muslim co-workers always tells me to "stay away from Sufis, they use magic and stuff, not true Muslims", but this sounds pretty great to me.
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Nov 9, 2018 00:53
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Are any of you Muslims itt excited about all the Americans who just got elected to political office this week who are Muslim? There were a bunch!
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Nov 9, 2018 01:13
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BattyKiara posted:This sounds like a really great lecture. My Muslim co-workers always tells me to "stay away from Sufis, they use magic and stuff, not true Muslims", but this sounds pretty great to me. I'm sure your coworker has enlightened thoughts about Shia as well (or Sunnis if they are Shia).
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Nov 9, 2018 02:12
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The only thing I love more than contemplative prayer is fear and contempt of contemplative prayer.
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Nov 9, 2018 04:08
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Grape posted:I'm sure your coworker has enlightened thoughts about Shia as well (or Sunnis if they are Shia).  Though on the other hand, whackadoo types definitely like to set themselves up as Sufi Masters at times in the way people did with the Kabbalah however long ago that was. But yeah, the general conservative Muslim will look at it somewhat skeptically (there are deeply conservative Sufis, however), depending on who is talking about it. Lutha Mahtin posted:Are any of you Muslims itt excited about all the Americans who just got elected to political office this week who are Muslim? There were a bunch!  There's a weird backlash among Muslims online about participating in the political process in a non-Muslim country and I was really happy to see that now Muslim girls have these role models who defied not only the lovely rhetoric of our time but also the negative attitudes of some of their co-religionists.
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Nov 9, 2018 04:12
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oh hey i remembered something funny i wanted to post in here. the funny part is me being a dingdong anyway, i was at the library a couple weeks ago, doing some reading in a reading room, and out of the corner of my eye i see some guy unroll a rug in a little tucked away corner of the room and start praying. i figure oh hey cool, it's probably some Muslim guy and he feels comfortable enough to do that without hiding away or anything, right on bro. i go back to reading but then i get kind of perturbed because my nerd brain started doing geometry and was like WAIT HANG ON WHY IS HE FACING NORTHEAST THIS IS MINNESOTA HOLY poo poo THAT CAN'T BE RIGHT! aw man like should i go tell him? like will he get mad? well i mean oh poo poo, i wouldn't want to be presumptuous, but also i don't want this guy to keep doing it wrong and then be embarrassed once he realizes it. i sit and go back and forth about this for a few minutes before i realize oh yeah there is probably like a million smartphone apps to point you toward mecca and yes obviously this guy is pointing the right direction you dumbass how did you forget about great circles lmao owned nooblord lern2pray
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Nov 9, 2018 04:18
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One of the favorite questions I got from a kid once was "If you're on the opposite side of the planet from Mecca do you just lay on the ground" Heck if I know.
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Nov 9, 2018 04:19
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Tendai posted:One of the favorite questions I got from a kid once was "If you're on the opposite side of the planet from Mecca do you just lay on the ground" There is a small atoll that is literally the antipode of Mecca: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tematagi
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Nov 9, 2018 12:49
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I submit two proposals: 1) Build a set of monkey bars so you can hang upside down by your legs. This has the advantage that you can point your head/arms directly toward the ground at a true 90 degree angle. We all know from geometry that the circumference of a sphere, like a circle, is about 3.14 times the diameter of the sphere. Praying via circumference at the antipode cuts that number in half since you only have to go half way around, but praying via diameter is then still shorter, at 1.00 versus 1.57. That is an improvement of over 36 percent! 2) Build a merry go round. This has the advantage that you're covering all your bases. We all know that our human minds are imperfect, and thus we might have made an error in our calculation of the exact spot of the antipode, or maybe the measuring tools we used were flawed. Praying in all directions then makes sure you are pointing the right way at least part of the time. The disadvantage of this method is if you don't have a friend to help you it would probably be hard to get it spinning fast enough to last the whole prayer before you jump on. Lutha Mahtin fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 15:12
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Is the direction to Mecca determined using a rhumb line (same heading all the way along the line) or a great circle line (shortest distance, with changing compass directions as you progress along the line)? Is there any disagreement on this point from scholars?
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Nov 9, 2018 15:13
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Grape posted:I'm sure your coworker has enlightened thoughts about Shia as well (or Sunnis if they are Shia). In her defence, the conversation went something like this, over lunch: Me: Can you explain something about Islam to me? Her: You are going to revert? YAY! Me: No,, I'm happy as a Christian, but can you explain the difference between sunni and shia? Her: We'll get you yet! Well, you see when The Prophet died... Me: No, I mean, what are the differences today? Do you have different rituals or prayers? Her: Well...hm...er…When we wash before prayers we start with (sorry, I forgot the exact thing, but something like this, probably messing up the details here) our hands and work up to the elbow, they start at the elbow and wash down towards the hand. Also (Another cleaning detail about nose before ears or something). Me: I see...Christians often split over little details too... Her: They are still Muslims! Just stay away from Sufis. They do magic and stuff. Not real Muslims! This is all from memory, any mistakes are all my fault. I did find it weird that Order of washing various body parts was so important. Never was very good at the whole "rituals must be THIS correct to count!" part of any religion.
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Nov 10, 2018 01:41
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