|
I'm curious about the EPL. I know it's a pretty broad range so go crazy. Tell me about teams and how they got their names and where they play and what the fan bases are like. Tell me about the players. Who is famous and good and why? Tell me about the weird cups they play for. Tell me about how the system works for players going from school into pro football. Tell me about the lower leagues and how teams can move from one to another in different seasons. In general, I know a little, but I want to know more.
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2017 17:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 23, 2024 17:33 |
|
|
Thats a lot of information to fit into a reply but I'll say some stuff and take it from there. The Premier (no e) League is the top flight of football in England. Existing in its current form since 1992, it was previously known as the First Division until some enterprising club owners decided to break away and form their own league to take advantage of the first of many TV broadcast deals, which helped the PL become the bloated lumbering monstrosity it is today along with unfathomably vast sums of petrodollars injected by variously Russian, Arab and Chinese billionaires. Scotland and Ireland have their own seperate domestic leagues, but Wales also sometimes manage to get a team or two into the PL (Swansea, also Cardiff in some recent years) because they didnt establish their own domestic league until after several Welsh sides were already competing in the top flight of the English league. Here's the table from the start of this season:  Consistent top-half teams are Arsenal, Manchester City, Manchester United, Liverpool, Tottenham Hotspur, and Chelsea who are last years winners. Newcastle United, Brighton & Hove Albion and Huddersfield Town have entered as the top 3 promoted teams from the Championship, which is the next league down (Sunderland, Middlesbrough and Hull were sent down). All the others are usually mid-table finishers. Promotion and relegation between leagues varies a little as the league sizes differ slightly, but generally speaking the top 2/3 get automatic promotion, with the next 3/4 entering playoffs with the winner securing the last promotion spot. Similarly the bottom 3/4 depending on the league will be relegated to the division below for the next season. Its worth remembering that most major metropolitan cities here can field 3+ major sides and due to proximity the rivalry between fanbases gets intense, usually resulting in nothing more than mocking songs and 'banter' but sometimes resulting in the violence that gets widely reported by media outlets. With that said its far from the Mad Max hellscape it sometimes get portrayed as and a day out at the football is still very much a family event (more so in lower leagues now, partly due to some insane pricing structures by the top flight teams, but thats a whole big reply of its own). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAU4hCBilbI kecske fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Aug 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2017 21:05
|
|
|
So all the songs are to the tune of Sloop John B? Could Arsenal or Man U, theoretically, get demoted?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2017 21:13
|
|
|
Points are all, so although unlikely its possible yes. Manchester City are a huge force now since being bought out by Emirati oil barons in 2008 and won the league in 11/12 and 13/14 after rising up from the Third Division, proving that anything is possible if you have Scrooge McDuck levels of finances to pour into a club.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2017 21:23
|
|
|
Clubs will be sent all the way down to the amateur league if they go bankrupt. Several of the big clubs are spending much more than they make so it could happen especially if the oligarch money dries out.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2017 06:32
|
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:So all the songs are to the tune of Sloop John B? Both of those teams have spent time outside of the top division although not since it became the Premier League. If for some reason their vast wealth wasn't enough one year and they finished in the bottom three they'd be relegated like anyone else.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2017 16:44
|
|
|
I like this moving back and forth between leagues business. I forgot to put in the OP: what about the cups. Are there multiple championships? Do the EPL teams play teams like Barcelona and stuff?
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2017 19:47
|
|
|
There are multiple cup competitions that occur during the course of the domestic season. League Cup: participants include the top four leagues with the Premier League teams being seeded into the competition last. This is the least prestigious competition and teams often field youngsters as a way of giving them game time. FA Cup: This competition actually encompasses the entire footballing pyramid so non-league sides (ie lower than League Two) can potentially play PL teams if they perform well enough. The final is always held after the close of the domestic season at Wembley Stadium in London. Europa League: this is an international competition held across Europe. It plays second fiddle to the Champions League in terms of prestige. Teams are decided based on league position from the previous season as well as based on UEFA coefficient (UEFA is the governing body for European teams). PL teams that finish in 5th through 7th places, and any British team that wins the FA Cup are entered into the Europa League. Champions League: this is arguably the biggest yearly competition in the world. This is where PL teams have the chance to face off against the biggest European teams like Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, and Juventus. The top four teams in the PL qualify for the Champions League. Also, any team that wins the Europa League is automatically qualified for the CL as is the case with Manchester United this season.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2017 08:06
|
|
|
So if you win the Champions league cup you are the world champs, pretty much? That's the big prize?
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2017 15:05
|
|
|
No, because the Champion's League is regional. There's one in Europe, one in Asia, in South America etc. (I think maybe called different things in some places.) The European one is the most famous and respected though because the biggest clubs play in it and it has the longest history. The actual world competition is the Club World Cup, which involves all the winners of the previous year's CLs. Ironically it's much less prestigious than winning the CL.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2017 07:35
|
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:So if you win the Champions league cup you are the world champs, pretty much? That's the big prize? Well, it's only European teams, but essentially yes, it's the most prestigious club competition in the world, and winning it is A Big Deal.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2017 07:36
|
|
|
Corrode posted:No, because the Champion's League is regional. There's one in Europe, one in Asia, in South America etc. (I think maybe called different things in some places.) The European one is the most famous and respected though because the biggest clubs play in it and it has the longest history. Aren't all the other areas essentially the minor leagues for Europe? Like USA Basketball to the rest of the world. Not even the remotest competition. Well, I guess in a game with almost no scoring things are a bit more equal.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2017 14:37
|
|
|
Not really, there are excellent teams in Germany, Italy, France has one, etc
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2017 16:55
|
|
|
Dr. Platypus posted:Not really, there are excellent teams in Germany, Italy, France has one, etc Those are all in Europe. Or do they have their own leagues, too?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2017 16:57
|
|
|
Every country in Europe has their own leagues
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2017 18:02
|
|
|
Dr. Platypus posted:Every country in Europe has their own leagues So those function as minor leagues for EPL then?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2017 21:14
|
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:So those function as minor leagues for EPL then? No. the EPL is the top tier of the English football structure. Spain's biggest clubs play in the Spanish league, Germany's play in the Bundesliga, Italy's big teams play in Serie A, so on, so forth. The "minor leagues" for the EPL are the rest of the English football pyramid. The Championship, League One, League Two, all the way down through to 11 or 12 tiers (& possibly more, I dunno, there's a lot of English football leagues is the main point). So you can start as an EPL side, finish bottom 3, get relegated to the Championship. And then you could theoretically keep finishing bottom & get relegated numerous time. Obviously this doesn't happen because the money involved in those lower tiers is next to nil so a EPL team that gets 25,000+ fans per game would never get that low.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2017 21:35
|
|
|
forkboy84 posted:No. the EPL is the top tier of the English football structure. Spain's biggest clubs play in the Spanish league, Germany's play in the Bundesliga, Italy's big teams play in Serie A, so on, so forth. No-one has fallen to the bottom of the pyramid without an external circumstance (like running out of money), but plenty of teams have fallen from the PL to League 2 which is the last tier of full-time professionals - most famously Portsmouth. The idea of "minor leagues" isn't really the same in football as it is for US sports. Leagues in smaller countries tend to end up with players leaving to go to one of the big leagues (England, Germany, Italy, Spain), but there's no formal system in place for that to exist. It's debatable whether the Premier League is even the top of the pile - it's the richest and most famous, and much more competitive in the sense that the bottom team in the PL is likely to be much better than the equivalent foreign team, but Spain or Germany tend to produce the outright best teams thanks to the status of Real/Barca and Bayern in their respective countries.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2017 06:57
|
|
|
I thought EPL drew from all over the world. So the players are almost all English?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2017 07:13
|
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:I thought EPL drew from all over the world. So the players are almost all English? No, most of the players are foreign.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2017 08:12
|
|
|
Corrode posted:No, most of the players are foreign. So then they do use the other leagues as minor leagues. In the US, in Baseball, there is the Major League and then there are minor leagues. Back in the day, nearly every city in America had at least one minor league team. This filter talent up and the cream reached the majors. I thought this is how it worked in EPL with leagues in Great Britain and they also cherry picked from the rest of the world.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2017 19:28
|
|
|
You should probably stop trying to look at it through the lens of minor/major leagues because it doesn't really work like that at all.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2017 20:24
|
|
|
You're probably right. I'm just fascinated by it and am curious. Still hoping to hear interesting histories about teams and players and things.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2017 20:53
|
|
|
Come and post in The Ray Parlour op its a cool and troll-free place for friends.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2017 09:17
|
|
|
Epl is good, but the rest of the football league (the other three leagues/72 teams) are exciting as well. Promotion/relegation battles and watching your local team is fun. Really low non league is fun as well. The standard is wayyy below what you'll see on tv, but it's footy at the end of the day, and being in a small ground with 300 people has a charm all its own.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2017 17:55
|
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:So then they do use the other leagues as minor leagues. No, because there are really a number of big, wealthy teams with the pick of the best players across England, Spain & France. Neymar for Paris Saint-Germain, Messi & Suarez play for Barcelona, Ronaldo is at Real Madrid, Griezmann is at Atletico Madrid, Neuer & Lewandowski are at Bayern Munich, Aguero & De Bruyne are at Manchester City, so on, so forth. So the EPL isn't at the top of the pyramid, it's just one of a number of major leagues in world football. And there are some very small teams in those major leagues, like Huddersfield & Burnley in the EPL, Eibar & Girona in La Liga, SPAL & Sassuolo in Serie A, etc. Promotion & relegation are really great concepts.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2017 18:32
|
|
|
I'd like to hear about Huddersfield & Burnley
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2017 21:09
|
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:I'd like to hear about Huddersfield & Burnley I can't talk about them specifically, but I can talk about similar teams. I broadly support four different teams: Queen's Park Rangers (QPR for short), which was the closest club where I was born in NW London; Manchester City, my Mum's team; Leeds United, my Dad's team; and Swansea City, where I've lived most of my life. All four have been up and down the leagues throughout my lifetime - Leeds won the Old First Division the last year before it became the then-Premiership, Man City have won the Premier League in more recent times, but all four have been as low as League One (the third flight - yeah, I know), with Swansea as low as League Two at one point. As it stands, Man City and Swansea are in the Premier League, with QPR and Leeds in the Championship (the second flight). Although saying all that, I pay far more attention to cricket these days so I can't go into huge detail about what the clubs are up to currently. Swansea are sort of fun as the Premier League's one Welsh team, though. Paul.Power fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Aug 22, 2017 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2017 13:40
|
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:So then they do use the other leagues as minor leagues. I think the easiest way to think about it is that there's (say) 1 giant league in England with (for argument's sake) 100 teams in it. At some point in the past we ranked all the teams from 1 to 100 and then every 20 teams are grouped in a league that plays each other during the season, ending up with a new ranking for each group. At the end of each season the teams at the bottom of each group swap with the ones at the top of the group below them. There's no connection between the teams, and no linkages (eg. feeder teams). Players can move between any team that wants them (subject to normal contract shenanigans etc) Obviously I'm glossing over a heap of detail but that's the basic idea. The same thing happens in the other countries in Europe, too (eg. spain, Germany, etc). There's no connection between the different countries' league structures (beyond the UEFA cup and champions leagues) So there's no reason that a team at the top of the list couldn't drop down one group per year if things were dire enough, nor someone going the other way (if they were good enough). Obviously in the real world the factor of money tends to stop this from happening, although cases like Leeds show that it's possible to be doing extremely well and go off a cliff in quick fashion...
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2017 05:43
|
|
|
iajanus posted:So there's no reason that a team at the top of the list couldn't drop down one group per year if things were dire enough, nor someone going the other way (if they were good enough). Obviously in the real world the factor of money tends to stop this from happening, although cases like Leeds show that it's possible to be doing extremely well and go off a cliff in quick fashion... See: The Portsmouth Premiership and you hosed it up! Premiership and you hosed it up! subsequent seasons Championship and you hosed it up! Championship and you hosed it up! League one and you hosed it up! league one and you hosed it up! etc etc. New AFC Wimbledon have moved up pretty drat quickly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2017 18:38
|
|
|
It should also be noted that the EPL, financially, is almost entirely dependent on TV rights money and being owned by Arab royals / Russian oligarchs fleeing Putin / American speculators / English CEOs, who fund them for personal prestige rather than profit. With the exception of Manchester United, who have a huge international presence, the top clubs aren't financially stable in their own right. The further you go down the pyramid, the tighter budgets are and more frequent the bankruptcies. A bad season for a League One club can be enough to put them to the wall. Conversely a bit of luck in the cup competitions can see your semi-pro team playing Man U and making more money in ninety minutes than you did in the last five years.
Obliterati fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Aug 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2017 16:17
|
|
|
Obliterati posted:It should also be noted that the EPL, financially, is almost entirely dependent on TV rights money and being owned by Arab royals / Russian oligarchs fleeing Putin / American speculators / English CEOs, who fund them for personal prestige rather than profit. With the exception of Manchester United, who have a huge international presence, the top clubs aren't financially stable in their own right. The further you go down the pyramid, the tighter budgets are and more frequent the bankruptcies. A bad season for a League One club can be enough to put them to the wall. Conversely a bit of luck in the cup competitions can see your semi-pro team playing Man U and making more money in ninety minutes than you did in the last five years. My club Exeter is a good example of this. We fell into the Conference with £5m of debt, our fans took over the club and had to rely on creditors accepting ~20% of their debt, leaving us £1m in the hole. Then we got drawn against Man U in the cup, earned a replay, made over a million over the 2 fixtures and bam, viable club again.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2017 12:39
|
|
|
For any yanks out there there are a few key differences between US sports leagues and football leagues everywhere else. 1. There is no salary cap in the major football leagues and much fewer restrictions on players moving teams, even internationally. So wealthy teams can amass great squads year after year by simply paying the big bucks to good players (in theory). 2. Teams have feeder teams in the form of youth squads, but these will have the same name as the parent team and play in their own youth competitions. This would be the equivalent of high school/college sports in the US, but is much, much, much less popular (basically all popular European sports are professional). 3. Countries with good football pedigrees that aren't as wealthy as European countries (say, Brazil) often "export" a lot of their talent overseas, but this is simply economics - Brazilians teams are not in any way inferior or subordinate to Europe, they just don't have the same amount of cash to attract the best players. This then leads to an effect where Europe compiles the best players, which causes more good players to want to go to Europe to find the best competition etc. Incidentally this is one of the big problems with US soccer, as recently there has been an emphasis on keeping homegrown US talent in the US league, instead of honing US players' skills in Europe against the best competition.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2017 18:01
|
|
|
Yeah a good point above, nobody cares about the youth teams unless they have maybe a close family member playing in one. The American thing of schools/colleges having pro in all but name teams that people would actually give a poo poo about doesn't exist
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2017 03:15
|
|
|
Rivalries: Teams from the same cities hate each other. London has too many teams so there are multiple levels of this, Arsenal and Spurs hate each other more than they care about Chelsea, for example. Teams from nearby cities/towns hate each other too (sometimes more than their city rivals, like Liverpool and Manchester United. This is because of canals.) Everyone hates Leeds despite them being irrelevant for over a decade. Small teams that are new to the league are often considered inoffensive (Brighton?) but will probably have some weird lower league rivalries that nobody really cares about at a national level. I might do more words when I'm not phoneposting sometime but 
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2017 16:10
|
|
|
"it doesnt matter if you get relegated so long as you beat wolves twice." is supposedly something someone said to a west brom manager once.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2017 21:21
|
|
|
ilmucche posted:"it doesnt matter if you get relegated so long as you beat wolves twice." is supposedly something someone said to a west brom manager once. Can’t verify the truth of the quote but as a West Brom fan/native I can 100% verify the sentiment. Blue and white, the Wolves are shite as they say.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2017 02:16
|
|
|
Suntoucher posted:Can’t verify the truth of the quote but as a West Brom fan/native I can 100% verify the sentiment. Blue and white, the Wolves are shite as they say. Rivalries are important, that's why newcastle would donate 6 points every year to keep the mackems around.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 12:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 23, 2024 17:33 |
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:You're probably right. I'm just fascinated by it and am curious. hit up TRP and wikipedia. wikipedia is a legit wealth of knowledge. That said, this channel will tell you everything you need to know about how absurd the supporter (fan) culture can get- https://youtube.com/channel/UCBTy8j2cPy6zw68godcE7MQ the escape goat fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Dec 12, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2017 20:58
|
|
