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Lurdiak posted:Don't give them more attention you dweebs. 3000 followers, I don't think he really is.
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Oct 1, 2017 00:53
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Chuck Dixon definitely went crazy, but he wrote a lot of good comics before he did. I don't feel bad for enjoying the good stuff he put out 20 years ago but I won't buy anything he puts out now, mostly because like a lot of older generation writers he's just not any good anymore. The fact that he went nuts (or just publicly so) just kind of reinforces that.
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Oct 1, 2017 01:08
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Yeah it's a Frank Miller situation.Aphrodite posted:3000 followers, I don't think he really is. I'm just saying, we all had a good laugh at the stupid alt-right comic, but now the longer we talk about it the more we give it a signal boost to people who would back it just to spite people they see as being the on the wrong side of a culture war. Don't act like there aren't any on SA.
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Oct 1, 2017 01:15
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Lurdiak posted:Don't act like there aren't any on SA. Yeah, they most post in the GBS threads, though. What happened to Frank Miller?
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Oct 1, 2017 01:25
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Zoro posted:Yeah, they most post in the GBS threads, though. You mean besides publishing a book where a Batman stand-in murders all muslims?
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Oct 1, 2017 01:28
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Lurdiak posted:You mean besides publishing a book where a Batman stand-in murders all muslims? Oh poo poo...
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Oct 1, 2017 01:28
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A Strange Aeon posted:1. The Book of Human Insects by Osamu Tezuka--is other manga like this? I feel like I opened up some horrible draining money void now, because this was really interesting and weird and when I think of manga, I think of fantasy stuff and all the anime tropes. I guess this work was from the early 70s, but I liked it a lot. JLI is spectacular. It was ahead of its time, and it has aged amazingly well. Don't buy the existing trades because DC discontinued them, but the first Omnibus is due out this week, and it's on Amazon for a very reasonable, bargain preorder price. Get it. Believe the hype. You won't be sorry. As for your other purchases, I love Ben Katchor's Julius Knipl comics, and Cheap Novelties was my favorite of his collections. Superman/Madman is a lot of fun (Mike Allred is my all-time favorite artist), and Tomorrow Stories is very uneven, but the Greyshirt stories by Alan Moore and Rick Veitch are an incredible Will Eisner homage that play a lot with the form of comic book storytelling in cool, experimental ways.
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Oct 1, 2017 01:30
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Lurdiak posted:You mean besides publishing a book where a Batman stand-in murders all muslims? Wasn't his original Robocop 2 script kind of out there as well? Like "evil man-hating feminist is responsible for everything" kinda stuff? I feel like a lot of these people have had these problems for a long time, which would be ok if they got better rather than visibly worse.
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Oct 1, 2017 02:13
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joehonkie posted:Wasn't his original Robocop 2 script kind of out there as well? Like "evil man-hating feminist is responsible for everything" kinda stuff? Was he the one who went "Wonder Woman is a feminist, she should be an eternally mad woman who goes around calling men 'spermbank?'
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Oct 1, 2017 02:15
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joehonkie posted:Wasn't his original Robocop 2 script kind of out there as well? Like "evil man-hating feminist is responsible for everything" kinda stuff? The villain wasn't a feminist, but a pop psychologist, but yeah it was still pretty vile.
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Oct 1, 2017 02:38
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I still maintain that Elektra Assasin is fascinating for how you can see Sienkiewicz interpreting Miller's foibles that bleed through the writing into the visuals.
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Oct 1, 2017 03:04
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Big Bad Voodoo Lou posted:JLI is spectacular. It was ahead of its time, and it has aged amazingly well. Don't buy the existing trades because DC discontinued them, but the first Omnibus is due out this week, and it's on Amazon for a very reasonable, bargain preorder price. Get it. Believe the hype. You won't be sorry. Glad to hear JLI is so good! Paging through the trades, it looked really fun, so I'm looking forward to picking up the Omnibus. Ben Katchor is definitely worthy of the MacArthur Genius Grant he received, that's for sure. His stuff is so subtle and smart, I'm sure I don't get everything out of it. But what I do get is such a powerful exploration of what it means for humans to live together in cities, it really makes me want to give a copy to all of my friends, even the ones who don't read comics. I think I have the rest of Moore's ABC line--even though I haven't reread Promethea since I bought the trades a decade ago, flush with cash from my first real job. I should probably sell it and get some shelf space back, but I'm loathe to give up anything Alan Moore wrote. Top 10 seems to clearly be the best out of that line, though I enjoyed Tom Strong for what it was. I could probably give that another read, it's been a few years and as I recall it's a pretty rollicking story.
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Oct 1, 2017 04:25
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Rhyno posted:Someone will probably try to call me out for saying so but Chuck Dixon is a known piece of poo poo. I'm not even gonna offer up an anecdote, he's a rotten human being and I no longer own a single thing he's written. Chuck Dixon has a long documented history of saying some pretty noxious poo poo in interviews, I concur. Beyond that, in all seriousness, either talk poo poo or don't. I mean, I'm not one to gossip, and I don't want to call anyone out, but between you and me, I wouldn't let *my* kids shop at Rhyno's store, especially if he's working, there, if you know what I mean. I don't want to get into it or offer an anecdote. Just watch out. But I'm not one to say poo poo without backing it up.
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Oct 1, 2017 04:28
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Edge & Christian posted:I'm really not sure how this is any better? You're just letting people's imagination run wild? The Fairsley Difference! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP4yX2rkpBc
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Oct 1, 2017 04:34
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I agree with you but why didn't you add an anecdote?!?! Omggggg doesn't add an anecdote either
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Oct 1, 2017 04:41
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site posted:I agree with you but why didn't you add an anecdote?!?! Omggggg Considering Rhyno was referencing his not-actually-rescinded "look Mark Waid is a sexual predator I don't have any concrete evidence but It Is Known that Mark Waid preys on underage girls" which is the sort of thing that you know, there is no concrete evidence or googlable information or corroborating evidence because Mark Waid has been involved in the comics field since the early 1980s and even people who actively dislike him have never heard or mentioned the concept he's a pedophile or a creep or whatever, that is not the same thing as saying "Mark Waid was a short tempered crybaby" or "Mark Waid gets way too mad about continuity, like he'll want to fight you over continuity" or "Mark Waid wrote some tone-deaf social commentary" or "Mark Waid made light of a fellow pro being convicted of murder in an actual DC Comic" or you know, like a hundred unflattering stories about Mark Waid that exist in the world, all of those are at least broadly accurate and corroborated by multiple sources. "Frank Miller published an Islamophobic comic" is not something you need to "add anecdotes" about, it's something that exists in the world. Saying Spider-Man is a Marvel character is not something you need to provide evidence for. Chuck Dixon turned into a right wing extremist after 9/11 is not a controversial statement. If I said that Spider-Man is actually an elaborate anti-semitic parable or that Frank Miller was born a woman, I would need to provide evidence or not say that poo poo "I don't want someone to call me out for telling an anecdote, not to get into it, but he's a real piece of poo poo" is the sort of dog whistle thing you say when you want to imply that person is a murderer or rapist or something. It's not something you say when you don't want to spend ten seconds finding widely known quotes from media interviews. Or if you do, it's because you want to imply that the person killed someone, not that they called a guy a "homo" back in 2004. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 04:56
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For all the Frank Miller is anti feminist claims out there he somehow managed to write Martha Stewart goes to Washington so it's a bit more nuanced than that. That being said I don't think he has ever written anything pro Islam. As for his Wonder Woman, that characterization seemed very much in line with every other character in all-star (ie completely over the top insanely out of character) including Batgirl, Batman, Robin and Superman. The only character in that comic that seemed close to the original was Hal Jordan.
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Oct 1, 2017 06:18
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A Strange Aeon posted:Ben Katchor is definitely worthy of the MacArthur Genius Grant he received, that's for sure. His stuff is so subtle and smart, I'm sure I don't get everything out of it. But what I do get is such a powerful exploration of what it means for humans to live together in cities, it really makes me want to give a copy to all of my friends, even the ones who don't read comics. Julius Knipl: Real Estate Photographer used to run in the New Times, Miami's free alt-weekly newspaper, back in the '90s when I was a teenager obsessed with comics (mostly superheroes), and it fascinated me. My family is Jewish (mostly non-practicing) and from Brooklyn, so something about it really resonated with me -- the sense of a fading culture in a dusty, weathered metropolis showing cracks and fading, but still rich with history and secret stories everywhere. I love old New York Jewish humor, delis and diners (both fading institutions, especially in NYC), and all that kind of stuff. I forgot about Katchor and Knipl for many years until I read a review of Cheap Novelties last year (a new edition came out recently), and that led me to track down Katchor's other Julius Knipl collections via interlibrary loan. They were all really charming and interesting and sad and weird and occasionally funny, but never laugh-out-loud funny. Cheap Novelties, with his earliest Knipl strips, was the best one. I wouldn't mind owning a copy at some point. Sorry -- I've never met anyone else who had even heard of his work before, even though I know he won the MacArthur Grant. Ever since Lin-Manuel Miranda became a MacArthur Fellow, I've been more interested in tracking down more works from previous Fellows. Katchor, Miranda, David Simon, Alison Bechdel, and Chris Thile make for some really fantastic company.
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Oct 1, 2017 06:23
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Madkal posted:Martha Stewart goes to Washington Nobody's going to vote for that criminal.
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Oct 1, 2017 12:54
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Big Bad Voodoo Lou posted:Julius Knipl: Real Estate Photographer used to run in the New Times, Miami's free alt-weekly newspaper, back in the '90s when I was a teenager obsessed with comics (mostly superheroes), and it fascinated me. My family is Jewish (mostly non-practicing) and from Brooklyn, so something about it really resonated with me -- the sense of a fading culture in a dusty, weathered metropolis showing cracks and fading, but still rich with history and secret stories everywhere. I love old New York Jewish humor, delis and diners (both fading institutions, especially in NYC), and all that kind of stuff. That's probably the best description of the Knipl stuff I've ever read! I think almost all of his work has this somewhat timeless nostalgic quality, where a year is seldom mentioned, but all the fading institutions and societies and businesses just scream "Life used to be this way, but no longer is." There's a brilliant strip in Cheap Novelties about street amenities, where each panel has Julius making use of a mirror a garment business has on their storefront, getting the time from a clock, seeing the temperature, playing chess, etc. and then the final panel is attending a lecture from a person predicting the end of street amenities. Ben Katchor is definitely someone I'd be excited to learn someone else is into, as well! I feel like his work is so good, it should be way more popular than it is. Almost all of his strips leave me with a weird feeling of having stumbled onto some secret truth about the world, or at least about cities, that remains ultimately elusive. Like that Borges quote-- "Music, states of happiness, mythology, faces belabored by time, certain twilights and certain places try to tell us something, or have said something we should not have missed, or are about to say something; this imminence of a revelation which does not occur is, perhaps, the aesthetic phenomenon." -Borges And yeah, it's hard to argue with MacArthur Fellows--that's a pretty great curated list of brilliant individuals whose work is worth exploring.
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Oct 1, 2017 13:58
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Frank Miller was always a hard right nut job, he just got way more outspoken after 9/11. It's all there in his 80s stuff. It really makes me second guess how much I love Batman considering how many of his "best" writers are using him for fascist wish fulfillment.
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Oct 1, 2017 14:04
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Borges loving rules.purple death ray posted:Frank Miller was always a hard right nut job, he just got way more outspoken after 9/11. It's all there in his 80s stuff. It really makes me second guess how much I love Batman considering how many of his "best" writers are using him for fascist wish fulfillment. Frank Miller posted:Anybody who thinks Batman was fascist should study their politics. The Dark Knight, if anything, would be a libertarian. The fascists tell people how to live. Batman just tells criminals to stop.
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Oct 1, 2017 15:01
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Borges loving rules. I could drive trains through the hole in the logic of those last two sentences.
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Oct 1, 2017 15:32
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purple death ray posted:Frank Miller was always a hard right nut job, he just got way more outspoken after 9/11. It's all there in his 80s stuff. It really makes me second guess how much I love Batman considering how many of his "best" writers are using him for fascist wish fulfillment.
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Oct 1, 2017 15:53
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think I've said this before, but Miller's Batman has kind of been ruined for me because I think that Batman has to on some level love Gotham City. Which is hard to be true when so much of Miller's is him dealing with him being afraid of New York. Lolwhat? I lived in NY all my life, how can you be afraid of New York? I can only imagine that being true for a country bumpkin or someone with severe anxiety. Not that I'm mocking severe anxiety issues, I'm just saying that's who I would imagine would have problems with New York as a concept.
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Oct 1, 2017 15:55
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Zoro posted:Lolwhat? I lived in NY all my life, how can you be afraid of New York? I can only imagine that being true for a country bumpkin or someone with severe anxiety. Not that I'm mocking severe anxiety issues, I'm just saying that's who I would imagine would have problems with New York as a concept. Frank Miller still lives (or at least owns a place and spends time in) New York City and has for over forty years, so saying he is "afraid of New York" is probably not accurate in 2017, but you never know.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:13
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Frank Miller went to NYC in like the late 70s when it was still a pretty bad scene and he got mugged, this has imprinted in him the completely sane and reasonable belief that everyone who isn't a straight affluent white man is destroying American society and needs to be put down like a rabid dog e: beaten, but I prefer my phrasing
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Oct 1, 2017 16:14
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Edge & Christian posted:Frank Miller grew up in Vermont and moved to New York City in the mid 1970s. This was pretty much the peak of New York City's crime rate (though some more geographically concentrated crime rates really spiked in the early 1990s too) and Frank Miller as someone from Vermont moving to The Big City barely out of his teenage years getting mugged and rough up at gunpoint repeatedly informed a whole lot of the work he did during that time period on Daredevil, and according to Miller informed his 1980s work on Batman too.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:32
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I think a lot of his post-9/11 stuff is him being afraid FOR New York, positing a tough saviour that does The Hard Things That Need Done to protect it.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:39
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Timeless Appeal posted:I find it hard to not imagine Miller having some antiquated views of East New York, Harlem, and the entirety of the Bronx. a) he was in fact essentially a teenage self-professed "country kid" when he moved to New York City during one of the city's most violent, crime-rampant, garbage-striking, arson-crazed periods of its existence, and got mugged at gunpoint repeatedly in short order, and that probably informs a lot of things for good or ill b) Frank Miller also has continued to live in New York City for about forty years now, so his view of it/him being "scared of it" has probably evolved over the decades, again, for both good and ill. I also know people hate talking about bad people/bad opinions as existing along a spectrum and Miller's racked up plenty of bad opinions/bad person(? I have no real evidence of that outside spouting off really bad opinions has to negatively impact your interaction with real humans too) points over the years, but since we were also just talking about Chuck Dixon, for instance. Comparing the two, only one of them voted for Trump and it wasn't Frank Miller. Only one of them campaigned for and contributed comics to organizations promoting free speech, creators' rights, AIDS research, gay rights, and protecting women's reproductive rights (all in the 1980s), and it wasn't Chuck Dixon. One of them is out there contributing to Alt*Hero and Based Stickman comics and doing interviews for Breitbart. One of them is more or less out of the public eye because he almost died a couple years ago, but when he's making public statements it's in support of ACA and Planned Parenthood and Lin Manuel Miranda or whatever, not Mike Cernovich. Lumping the two of them into "conservative old man comic creators" is I guess workable to a point, but it's a pretty broad brush. He (frequently) can't write women, said some incredibly stupid and hateful poo poo about Islam and Occupy Wall Street, his apparent health problems stemming from drinking have really hosed him up, and I don't think I've enjoyed anything he's worked on since maybe the Green Lantern bits in ASBAR. I'm not "defending" Frank Miller other than to say "Frank Miller used to be very talented and he's not a good guy and he's got some very bad opinions. Counterpoint: he does not have every single bad opinion, despite people's belief that he very well might." Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 17:51
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Edge & Christian posted:b) Frank Miller also has continued to live in New York City for about forty years now, so his view of it/him being "scared of it" has probably evolved over the decades, again, for both good and ill. With that said, I do agree with your broader statement that being a "bad person" isn't an all or nothing game. I love a lot of Miller's work, I know there is good in him, and comics are better for having him. On the other hand, I think the "9/11 broke Frank" myth needs to stop. 9/11 better illustrated a worldview that was always there.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:29
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Yeah, there's a political undercurrent from even his salad days in the 80s that evinces, at best, a clumsiness about race. There's a beautiful character beat in the middle of Born Again where Karen Page is at her lowest and Foggy comes to her and offers her safety and comfort because, he says, she, him, and Matt are all family. It's a really sweet and effective moment and it's illustrated in a big wide bottom panel of these two characters embracing in full color against a backdrop of shadowy looming figures. The thing is, the faces of those figures, or at least the faces that can be made out, are distinctly black-- broad noses, big lips, eyes covered in shadow. Miller isn't trying to tell a racist story about how Foggy rescued Karen Page from black people, but the iconography that Miller uses is the iconography that the 70s handed to him-- the outside, the other, is black. This isn't to throw Frank Miller under the bus or to single him out per se-- if you look at other comics from around the same time there is some truly embarrassing representation. David Michelenie and Roger Stern, among others, shoot for a broad "jive talk" dialect for black characters that is truly, truly awful, and again, it isn't like they're setting out to write "Birth of a Nation 2: Armor Wars" but it's there. See too Christopher Priest's blog posts about working at Marvel in the 80s and the constant low-level field of ambient racism he had to work against. I don't love Frank Miller and haven't liked a single thing he's made in ages but I wouldn't look you in the eye and say that Born Again isn't a masterpiece of its genre. But it does have deep issues with the semiotics of race, and those issues work backwards not only into the rest of his Daredevil work (is there a major black character in his run besides, uh, Turk?) and the field he chose to make his career in. Frank Miller has hosed up ideas about race, and hosed up ideas about politics, and his writing can get way too horny about certain things, I don't think any of that is up for debate. I think what's more interesting is tracking the extent to which his base-level ideology at the start of his career is not THAT different from that of his peers, and how it veered in one direction in the intervening decades whereas, like, Roger Stern's did not (to my knowledge?). I've also sort of suspected that Miller's fundamental deal is more like Claremont's-- the comic page is therapeutic to him so you're getting all of his baggage, all of what makes him mad, all of what turns him on, and that degree of nakedness is often unsettling.
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Oct 1, 2017 19:33
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Unkempt posted:Nobody's going to vote for that criminal. I'll vote for anyone endorsed by Snoop Dogg.
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Oct 1, 2017 22:16
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Someone make an October thread!
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Oct 1, 2017 23:17
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