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I thought damaged buildings were out of order for the outpost phase so its good to know losing one is just a resource drain. That does dovetail into how many tiny, fiddly rules there are in this game though, even compared to OG Gloomhaven. Im yet another person who missed that forest scenarios have a prerequisite achievement because I didnt even know that achievements would be listed like that in the scenario book. Then you have item blueprints vs gaining the item itself, challenges, the ominously growing stack of building stickers, the multistep crafting process for certain items, etc. Theres just so much drat upkeep and sifting through game components that contribute to the outpost phase feeling horrid, because its a guarantee of even more box and rules diving. Its all so exhausting, and my group is getting more exhausted with every new gimmick. At least I can laugh at the ever changing nature of Liseritus/Listeritus.
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Apr 23, 2024 21:49
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Control Volume posted:That does dovetail into how many tiny, fiddly rules there are in this game though, even compared to OG Gloomhaven. Im yet another person who missed that forest scenarios have a prerequisite achievement because I didnt even know that achievements would be listed like that in the scenario book. Then you have item blueprints vs gaining the item itself, challenges, the ominously growing stack of building stickers, the multistep crafting process for certain items, etc. Theres just so much drat upkeep and sifting through game components that contribute to the outpost phase feeling horrid, because its a guarantee of even more box and rules diving. Its all so exhausting, and my group is getting more exhausted with every new gimmick. My group hasn't started FH yet, and after reading the rules (again) and this thread, I think we're just going to cheat our way through the non-scenario stuff because it sounds cumbersome and un-fun. I know my group, and the entire time we're figuring out outposts and buildings and walls and stuff, we're going to be wishing we were already in the next dungeon. Is there a good way to kind of "skip" the town phase in FH?
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Apr 23, 2024 23:57
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WhiteHowler posted:My group hasn't started FH yet, and after reading the rules (again) and this thread, I think we're just going to cheat our way through the non-scenario stuff because it sounds cumbersome and un-fun. I know my group, and the entire time we're figuring out outposts and buildings and walls and stuff, we're going to be wishing we were already in the next dungeon. In order of small to large deviation from the designer's intent: 1. Average out the "attacks" your town facing rather than drawing cards. Just assume you'll lose half the time at the start and spend that many resources. These are there to tax your resources and encourage you to pay for defenses, but they accomplish that in a fiddly, slow way that doesn't really pay rent for the number of decisions you are asked to make. There are tons of small choices but most of them have obvious answers and/or are low-impact. 2. Batch outpost phases together per session. There's no need to do resource management between every scenario if you're gonna play more than one - just play however many scenarios you're gonna play, then as bookkeeping at the end, do one "big" outpost phase where you can build "up to #scenarios" buildings, advance time by that many weeks, etc. If you do this, you should probably still let players level up between scenarios - I hope they can be quick about it. 3. Just pool wood, metal, lumber into a single quantity once its in the town storage. Use this for building so you can just count the number of resources and not sweat it. Anything costing any of those subtracts, anything granting them adds. I guess if you're really still not feeling it here you could do: 4. Just read calendar events as soon as they are added to the calendar instead of waiting for that week. These cannot be skipped, they unlock scenarios and stuff, but they are often time consuming if you read all the text. Doing them immediately at least gets them over with, even if it breaks verisimilitude.
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Apr 24, 2024 00:26
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WhiteHowler posted:My group hasn't started FH yet, and after reading the rules (again) and this thread, I think we're just going to cheat our way through the non-scenario stuff because it sounds cumbersome and un-fun. I know my group, and the entire time we're figuring out outposts and buildings and walls and stuff, we're going to be wishing we were already in the next dungeon. It is honestly just slightly more involved than the GH city phase - except for sometimes there's a longer event, and then you pool resources to build more outpost. (Which is also how you get prosperity.) Mr. Of YOSPOS has some very good ideas to smooth it out. The link I posted above has a few more. Give it an honest try, give yourself permission to be kinda sloppy, and it's done. Moving it before a scenario is another good one I didn't see mentioned - just like you probably did it in Gloomhaven.
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Apr 24, 2024 00:35
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I’m definitely sloppy with the town phase and I don’t care. Here’s my version that makes sense to me: 1. Check a calendar box and read the sections 2. Do a city event 3. Build stuff and do building things Probably the only wrong thing there is that we’ve been using buildings the week they’re built, and we’re kind of fast and loose with the ordering of buying resources/building stuff/crafting.
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Apr 24, 2024 01:54
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WhiteHowler posted:My group hasn't started FH yet, and after reading the rules (again) and this thread, I think we're just going to cheat our way through the non-scenario stuff because it sounds cumbersome and un-fun. I know my group, and the entire time we're figuring out outposts and buildings and walls and stuff, we're going to be wishing we were already in the next dungeon. As the person criticizing it, the game would be significantly worse if you skipped through the outpost phase. Just dont sweat the details if you dont want to.
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Apr 24, 2024 02:04
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Honestly I think this will be detrimental if you try to skip it entirely. The resources you use in the outpost phase serve as loot during scenarios, events, etc. If you remove them entirely it's gonna also flatten the experience in-scenario. Also you at least still must do the calendar events as they come - many scenarios are gated behind them. If I wanted to try to streamline it with an eye towards eliminating the fiddly resource tracking, I'd do the following one by one until I found it satisfying. Thank you for the write-up. We'll try it "straight" for the first few scenarios, but if the group gets bored with it, I'll suggest trying it your way. Failing that, we'll do the bare minimum and do everything "sloppy" as others suggested (ie. "we're doing this poo poo in ten minutes or less"). dwarf74 posted:It's why you're doing the scenarios. I think we disagree there. My group does the scenarios because the scenario gameplay is super fun. I don't think it particularly needs an overworld/building tier. If FH was just a box of new scenarios and characters like Jaws of the Lion (but bigger), I'd probably be more excited for it.
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Apr 24, 2024 02:12
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WhiteHowler posted:I think we disagree there. My group does the scenarios because the scenario gameplay is super fun. I don't think it particularly needs an overworld/building tier.  The FAQ - https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3001013/official-faq-for-frosthaven-no-rules-questions-ple I'd recommend checking it out for the new phases ahead of time - outpost phase, etc. - and for your classes. Here's my campaign tweaks. They will ease some potential pain points. They will also make it a bit smoother for you. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sW1mgQrCZSNNXYCZjklbesdHsK85yS_O8U8zUEPDgqI/edit?usp=drivesdk Eventually you'll get the Puzzle Book. This is not actually optional, but you can basically bypass it. If you just want hints, they're here. If you want outright milestones and solutions, the link is in the post. https://www.reddit.com/r/Gloomhaven/s/E7VBRSZOo2
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Apr 24, 2024 02:42
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Also if the person who owns the game wants, you can do a lot of that stuff through group chat inbetween sessions. With our group, we have a person on a tight time crunch, so virtually every time we're sending pictures of potions and saying, oh yeah, you spent 3 wood btw.
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Apr 24, 2024 03:02
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Vidmaster posted:Probably the only wrong thing there is that we’ve been using buildings the week they’re built, and we’re kind of fast and loose with the ordering of buying resources/building stuff/crafting. Same, and I think the building timing is low key one of the worse things about the outpost phase. We play one mission per session, and RAW no matter how we fit the outpost phase into our session we would always be splitting up “choose to build” and “see the new building in action” by a week or more. To me it lessens the impact of shoveling a bunch of resources into an upgrade or new build. Unrelated: we just beat scenario 53. These last two scenarios have been a punch in the gut, difficulty wise. This one was at least mercifully, brutally short given the huge boss damage and the loss mechanic; I don’t think I could have mentally handled another long mission with Deep Terrors. Two tries on 53, after an abortive first attempt to control mindsnipper spawns while also damaging the boss. Turns out if you just rush him down you can (maybe) win, even if your Astral draws two curses and a null in a row on their final attacks  . I am really not amused by the “flavorful” “not a scenario effect” bit on this quest line
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Apr 24, 2024 13:45
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Control Volume posted:My group is in the same boat, but I think one of the bigger issues is it happens at the end of a scenario when everyones already mentally exhausted, just to be thrown into 10 - 20 minutes of bookkeeping and rarely used mechanics that rarely affect anyones character beyond maybe not being able to craft that turn. The decision making from the group went from carefully considering choices to saying "I dont care. Do whatever and let me know if something interesting happens" while they pack up their character. Have you considered doing the outpost phase at the beginning of the next session instead of after the current one?
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Apr 24, 2024 15:17
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WhiteHowler posted:I think we disagree there. My group does the scenarios because the scenario gameplay is super fun. I don't think it particularly needs an overworld/building tier. Frosthaven is literally about rebuilding a ruined outpost and through that discovering the story and working your way through the plot. You simply can't skip it because it unlocks tons of stuff that you can't beat the campaign without It's there partly because Isaac wanted to add a city building element to the game (for city building sim fans) and also because tons of people complained that GH was nothing but "kill all enemies in these 3 rooms" and wanted more variety in gameplay You certainly don't have to enjoy it but I would suggest following Dwarf's suggestions for streamlining it if your group doesn't enjoy it
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Apr 24, 2024 15:26
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Wild takes here, the settlement phase is quick and easy. Only annoying part is needing to go back to town to level up, we'll be house ruling that out in the future tho.
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Apr 24, 2024 15:32
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Elephant Ambush posted:Have you considered doing the outpost phase at the beginning of the next session instead of after the current one? Yeah thats what we were switching to. Im hoping it solves most of the issues
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Apr 24, 2024 16:09
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Elephant Ambush posted:It's there partly because Isaac wanted to add a city building element to the game (for city building sim fans) and also because tons of people complained that GH was nothing but "kill all enemies in these 3 rooms" and wanted more variety in gameplay I thought original GH had a few too many "just kill these monsters" scenarios, but Jaws of the Lion did a great job of switching things around without abandoning the formula that makes the tactical layer of the game work.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:20
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WhiteHowler posted:I thought original GH had a few too many "just kill these monsters" scenarios, but Jaws of the Lion did a great job of switching things around without abandoning the formula that makes the tactical layer of the game work. I dig Frosthaven's variety and am worried I'll miss it - but GH2e is an intentional step backwards in scenario complexity so there's a smooth JotL - GH2e - FH progression. I'm eternally sad it's not out yet. It's been development-complete since basically the Backerkit campaign. I remember being so optimistic about it coming out on time.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:52
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Eschatos posted:Wild takes here, the settlement phase is quick and easy. Only annoying part is needing to go back to town to level up, we'll be house ruling that out in the future tho. Yeah, the couple of times we've had someone hit an XP milestone in a scenario with a forced link, we've said "whatever, you leveled up, your character can learn their new skill". We don't go do crafting/shopping/whatever, but you got the XP, so your character can grow. Technically not rules as written, but also probably won't come up often.
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Apr 24, 2024 21:49
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Force links are for narrative purposes, not game balance. You should feel free to ignore anything about them if you want to. We have "lost" the last two we hit so someone could retire. "Oh gosh we wiped before even setting up the scenario. Time to go home."
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Apr 24, 2024 22:50
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Elephant Ambush posted:Have you considered doing the outpost phase at the beginning of the next session instead of after the current one?
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Apr 24, 2024 23:35
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dwarf74 posted:Force links are for narrative purposes, not game balance. You should feel free to ignore anything about them if you want to. I meant regular links. Seemed like a disadvantage to advance the timeline unnecessarily.
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Apr 24, 2024 23:38
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Eschatos posted:I meant regular links. Seemed like a disadvantage to advance the timeline unnecessarily. Since the outpost gets attacked more often in winter I always try to delay it if I'm in summer. In winter I try to advance time as fast as possible
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Apr 25, 2024 00:39
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