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Many of the local dirt ovals in Wisconsin run a class called "Bandit" cars - 4-cylinder, FWD, mostly stock. Rules: here. Its supposed to be entry level, budget racing. Example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4Tya-KbIJ8 I've been dragging my feet on this, but finally am getting around to building a '99 Acura CL 2.3L 5-SP car that I picked up a couple years ago for this. I realize its an odd car to choose, but I really think its fits pretty well. So, let's meet the car.  200k miles before the odometer stopped working, I think every piece of this car is broken in some way. Yet, somehow too nice for for a demo derby I think.  F23A1 engine - not exactly a popular engine in the Honda world. Most every track however has banned any Honda DOHC, and most wont allow anything rated over 150hp factory. So this actually fits the class really well. Going to need to throw a VTEC solenoid in it. Then move on to removing unnecessary parts: A/C, P/S, balance shafts....etc. Day 1: Just started working on it today. Hopefully This thread will help keep me motivated. First thing, gut the interior. I'm always amazed at the amount of stuff manufacturers can cram in a car, and this is just the passenger side:  Plan for the next couple days will be to finish gutting the interior, remove a whole lot of wiring, hopefully hack a module in the ECM to remove the immobilizer, and get the VTEC solenoid in, and the engine fully functional before sending it for a cage. Really won't have a lot of time outside of the weekends, but I'm giving myself a deadline to make the practice race in april. I've built plenty of demo cars in under a week, and this isn't a whole lot different in my mind.
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Jan 8, 2018 06:29
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Are you sure the vtec solenoid is bad? The screen sometimes gets gunked up if POs run the oil too long, which will keep VTEC from engaging. There's nothing wrong with the F23A1, it's just not that popular because people dump it for the H22 (which has more of an aftermarket). The VTEC also kicks in at a lower RPM on the F23A1 (as low as 2800 RPM). It's got a bit more usable low end power than an H22, IMO, and the drat things run forever. As for the immobilizer, open up your ECU and take a look. Compare it to the photos in this PDF. Then go here to order the proper bypass. Why did you want to bypass the immobilizer anyway? You probably already know it's an interference engine with a timing belt; I don't know if you'll want to put the money into a timing belt, but it'd be a good idea if you don't know when it was last changed. Rules seem to allow an aftermarket intake, but the stock intake is pretty well tuned from the factory on these (and a stock style filter will filter a lot more dirt than most cone filters).
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Jan 8, 2018 07:13
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I haven't looked into the solenoid at all, its throwing a code for it immediately at key on for a circuit code. Supposedly it was diagnosed at a local Honda shop by the PO, but I haven't attempted to diagnose it myself. Probably should though considering the cost on the part. Right now, the rev limiter just cuts in at 3500 rpm when you drive it. Already ordered a immobilizer chip from ebay to put in it. I'm planning on eliminating the entire ignition switch from the column, I am very much a fan of KISS when it comes to stuff like this. The long term plan will probably be a OBD 1 ECM swap, but I just want to get it going as is for now. Timing belt is on the to-do list, just going to throw away the balance shaft belt while I'm in there for a cheap delete. maybe if I make it through a season, I'll pull the motor and do it proper. The factory intake tube is torn, so that'll probably get replaced, may reuse the stock box if possible. Would fab up some kind of cold air scoop - maybe in the original headlight spot.
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Jan 8, 2018 07:35
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This is going to be awesome.
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Jan 8, 2018 15:37
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The F23A1 is a pretty sturdy little engine in the Accord, I didn't realize it ran this late into the Acura product.
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Jan 8, 2018 16:41
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Dude, that racetrack is 30 minutes from me. Where are you?
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Jan 8, 2018 17:10
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About an hour away for me (Waukesha area); I'm feeling like I should totally come out to spectate sometime. Also, as a roadrace guy, it's really interesting what "entry level, budget racing" is for oval stuff compared to roadrace stuff.
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Jan 8, 2018 18:33
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Unsane posted:I haven't looked into the solenoid at all, its throwing a code for it immediately at key on for a circuit code. Supposedly it was diagnosed at a local Honda shop by the PO, but I haven't attempted to diagnose it myself. Probably should though considering the cost on the part. Right now, the rev limiter just cuts in at 3500 rpm when you drive it. Cool. I've gone and watched a few times and it was a fun time. Seems like swapping the ecu to something older would be more complicated. I'd probably just disable the immobilizer (I assume you have to remove the steering column lock too?) and leave everything else alone engine/harness/ecu wise. Also I was just going through stock my distributor is clearing out. They have a bunch of rear tokico illuminas and HPs for cheap for that car. None for the front, strangely, but there's some other stuff. jamal fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 19:33
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Seat Safety Switch posted:The F23A1 is a pretty sturdy little engine in the Accord, I didn't realize it ran this late into the Acura product. The CL is just an Accord EX-L coupe with some lipstick. They used the F23 until the end of the 2002 model year on both the Accord and CL.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:12
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Boaz MacPhereson posted:Dude, that racetrack is 30 minutes from me. Where are you? Racine jamal posted:Cool. I've gone and watched a few times and it was a fun time. I'm not all that knowledgeable about Honda ECM stuff. It just seemed like I could buy a P38 with a chip in it and just tune everything on my own with a laptop. A swap harness would just make it plug and play. Otherwise I'm worried eliminating things may throw it in a limp mode. Planning on eliminating: 2nd O2 & cat, EVAP system, EGR, and advancing timing. I looked into all the factory anti theft stuff last night, it looks like I can just put that immo chip in the ecm and bypass all the remote start and anti-theft starter cut stuff pretty easily to start. If you have any other easy options for this, let me know. Then throw a push button and toggle switch ignition in it, and gut the column. eliminating all the wheel lock stuff. I've had wheel locks engage on me before in demo cars, so I just strip the columns by default now. Let me know what you can get for parts. I do want to replace the struts, and springs in it. The track gets pretty rough though, this class runs last in the night. I don't think a performance shock would be the best, unless it was pretty mild. Thinking about getting a set of the cl 3.0 springs for on the right side of the car though.
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Jan 9, 2018 05:29
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Yeah I don't know a lot about honda ecus either but there might be some way to keep the ecu and have it ignore all the poo poo you've taken off. A Honda tuner like church would know or send hondata an email maybe? Also had my year split wrong for the CL, which might actually help. They've got full sets for that chassis, it's the next gen there are only rear shocks for. How much can/do you want to spend on the suspension? Can you have adjustable perches? Being able to weight jack would be useful for only turning left but a ground control kit goes for like $400. There's cheaper stuff on ebay but you'd probably need to find new springs. The illuminas would be a decent choice I think, you get an adjustment knob and they'll be fine on a dirt track and a full set is under 350. HPs are even cheaper at like 250 which is probably less than the cheapest parts store crap. Or you could get bilsteins. I am trying to figure out if you can take apart and rebuild/revalve a B6 (the only application for that car). Seems like a possibility. jamal fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Jan 9, 2018 |
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Jan 9, 2018 06:04
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quote:Stock type steel springs that fit in perch and top hat in stock locations are allowed. No threaded adjusters. Do you run a store? I'd probably go for a set of those HPs. Wasnt planning on doing suspension yet, but wouldn't want to pass up a deal. Also don't want to push my luck with worn out stock suspension. My buddy runs the #12 cavalier in that video I posted. He broke one of his OE front struts in half in a race last year. I'm trying to learn from his mistakes.
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Jan 9, 2018 06:19
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Almost forgot: Adjustable suspension arms are a go, and I'll have to try and find a set. Doubt I'll run the max 1" of camber, but a few degrees for sure.
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Jan 9, 2018 06:25
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Yeah I do have a little parts business and hopefully my own shop fairly soon. I don't have this stuff in the store because I mostly do Subaru parts, but was going through what my distributor had on clearance the other day. They've also got HPs for a cavalier. email is peter@functionauto.com Reading the rules now. So no adjustable shocks, no adjustable springs, can only add camber (not sure what they mean by 1" though. measured from top to bottom of tire? rim?). Even on dirt you'll want a fair amount, and more caster and less anti-lift would be nice but it sounds like you can't do that. I don't see the HPs as being a problem. they're kind of a "performance" shock but not adjustable and meant as an oe replacement. I don't think there's much different between them and some KYB GR2s or whatever but I guess you might get poo poo for having bright blue shocks? And you should definitely have a sweet sidepipe exhaust on the passenger side. I could see making some reinforcement bars below the bumper skin and fenders too.
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Jan 9, 2018 06:48
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jamal posted:And you should definitely have a sweet sidepipe exhaust on the passenger side. side exit exhaust is a given. The reinforcing bars I want to do, but will need to find someone who can fab the stuff up. I was thinking about buying a bending setup, but really don't have the space. I may run it by the shop that does the cage, they were surprisingly reasonable on the price, so I may have them do more fab stuff.
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Jan 9, 2018 07:13
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drat that's a short rule book. Looks like a good time though. I don't think an aftermarket ECU will be worth the effort for intake and exhaust. 90s Hondas don't really need tuning until you throw a major power adder at them. Ymmv I know more about b/d series than the f/h family though. If you do want to go for it anyway, hondata is the easiest tuning solution I've ever used even compared to stuff for other manufacturers and stand alones.
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Jan 10, 2018 04:38
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one of the reasons I was thinking about an ecm swap was just that I can get a chipped ecm, plug and play harness, basemap and a chip burner for ~$350. just seemed like the cheapest way to get it done. I don't want to buy some high dollar standalone ecu that will double the current cost of this project. Hoping for some advice on that though. I'm not worried about tuning for more power, I'm just don't want to cripple what I have with my modifications. Researching this is kinda tough though, these cars and the accords are long past their prime. Most of the online discussion I can find is just how to h22 swap them. Edit: forgot to add that I don't want to jump into the ECM swap thing until later. Its more of a want then a need at this point. I'm more concerned on just getting what I have now running well, and on the track to start with. Unsane fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Jan 10, 2018 |
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Jan 10, 2018 05:39
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honda whisperer posted:I don't think an aftermarket ECU will be worth the effort for intake and exhaust. 90s Hondas don't really need tuning until you throw a major power adder at them. Ymmv I know more about b/d series than the f/h family though. Intake and exhaust don't do much good at all on the F23A1 without some other work (cam, tune, etc); it's surprisingly well tuned from the factory.
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Jan 10, 2018 07:25
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OH poo poo FINALLY A WISCO THREAD! Madison goon here. We were just talking about dirt track at work too. Subscribed!
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Jan 10, 2018 17:41
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Preoptopus posted:OH poo poo FINALLY A WISCO THREAD! Madison goon here. We were just talking about dirt track at work too. Subscribed! lol, unofficial Wisconsin thread now?
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Jan 10, 2018 17:59
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Hey, I never said I was from Cheeseland. I'm just close.
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Jan 10, 2018 18:41
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I grew up in Wisconsin right outside of Milwaukee near a dirt track called Hales Corners Speedway. Used to sneak in there all the time, I think it's been closed for awhile now tho.
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Jan 11, 2018 06:14
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Unsane posted:one of the reasons I was thinking about an ecm swap was just that I can get a chipped ecm, plug and play harness, basemap and a chip burner for ~$350. just seemed like the cheapest way to get it done. I don't want to buy some high dollar standalone ecu that will double the current cost of this project. Hoping for some advice on that though. I'm not worried about tuning for more power, I'm just don't want to cripple what I have with my modifications. Researching this is kinda tough though, these cars and the accords are long past their prime. Most of the online discussion I can find is just how to h22 swap them. Hondata would be about double that. $450 for the hardware they supply, about $100 for compatible ECU and about $100 for soldering. You can get the ECU cheaper if you know a good junkyard. For install just send it to hondata, they do an excellent job on the soldering. You'll need a jumper harness to adapt obd2 to obd1. Stock sensors and distributor should work. Whole thing converts a stock obd1 ECU to a standalone with real time programming and data logging via USB on the side of the case. I've used the cheaper options before but it's been 6 or 7 years since I have. They used to be workable but fiddily. How they are today I have no idea. Hondata I have used recently and it's still rock solid. Crome and uberdata were the big "free" Honda tuning solutions back when I knew what was going on. Ymmv. http://www.moates.net is an excellent source for chips, sockets, burners etc. I only post all this ECU stuff because it's the one place I might have some useful info to share.
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Jan 11, 2018 23:36
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I've got a Moates Ostrich and a P28 ECU that I socketed, and a HULog datalog output. It was in my old Civic, but should still work. I've been trying to sell it half-heartedly for years. I've also got an OLD Thinkpad with a Crome Pro license.
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Jan 12, 2018 06:00
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Saturday update: Big Shout out to jamal for hooking me up with a deal on most of my new "stock" suspension.  Diagnosed my vtec issue. Scanner gave me this extremely descriptive trouble code:  The solenoid itself ohmed out good, the pressure switch also does KOEO. Assuming I actually have oil pressure I'm probably going to just need the screen and probably the pressure switch. Since its like 3/4 the cost of the whole solenoid unit I guess I'm just going to pick up a new unit and save what's left for parts. Other then that, just more stripping. Got both doors gutted, dash out, headliner out.  Tomorrow will be removing the gigantic sunroof assembly, and probably heater box. Get the drivers seat out, so I can pull the rest of the carpeting. Also ripping into the stock ECM and solder in this immo chip, hopefully it still runs after. Cant get homelink in my new ford...but in my 18 year old acura? no prob.  sharkytm posted:I've got a Moates Ostrich and a P28 ECU that I socketed, and a HULog datalog output. It was in my old Civic, but should still work. I've been trying to sell it half-heartedly for years. I've also got an OLD Thinkpad with a Crome Pro license.
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Jan 14, 2018 03:56
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Your vtec issue can also be related to poor engine oiling. One easy way to help clean the passages and stuff is drain half the engine oil replace with ATF run for 10 15 minutes at idle. Then drain and replace filter. It will turn black as coal if the oil passages were very dirty. This trick works on many clogged/dirty vvt solenoids.
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Jan 14, 2018 17:46
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PM sent. I'd love to see my old DREG poo poo live on in this thing.
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Jan 17, 2018 05:33
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Any status updates?
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Feb 25, 2018 02:25
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Kinda been burnt out from work lately. I'm hoping to tear apart the vtec solenoid today, and see if here is any crap in the screen causing the run issue. Trying to get my rear end in gear so I can get this sent out for the cage.
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Feb 25, 2018 21:43
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Started pulling the valve, didn't realize I have to pull the whole thermostat block of to get it out. Ordering the thermostat and coolant pipe gaskets. Ended up working on removing more of the unneeded accessories, and lights. I can just cap off the heater hoses on the block right? Not sure if Honda's need that coolant cross flow.
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Feb 26, 2018 03:21
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Unsane posted:Started pulling the valve, didn't realize I have to pull the whole thermostat block of to get it out. Ordering the thermostat and coolant pipe gaskets. Ended up working on removing more of the unneeded accessories, and lights. I'd loop them to be on the safe side.
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Feb 28, 2018 20:09
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What ever book time is on this heater core, it isnt enough. Had a good day/night of working on this pile. Threw a new vtec solenoid in it, got some more windows, and the rest of the interior out. still fighting whats left of the heater box.More of the same tomorrow hopefully. starting to rip out unneeded wiring, and clear extra crap out of the engine bay as well. Went to a preseason drivers meet and april 28th is the first race for the class, hopefully shouldn't be a problem. We hired another mechanic at the shop I work at, now the constant seven day a week overtime should end as well. So its time to get some poo poo done.
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Mar 11, 2018 08:31
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And after seeing that pic, suddenly I'm REALLY loving glad I got rid of my Accord. I know heater cores are a massive PITA in general, but drat.
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Mar 11, 2018 10:32
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