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Applewhite posted:The Lyonesse trilogy is a console exclusive and there are currently no plans to release it for PC. *screams silently *
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Sep 16, 2018 23:08
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MeatwadIsGod posted:The only fantasy stories that ever worked for me were Conan, and even those vary a lot in quality and racism At least the racism is obvious in those. When a blue bearded Shemite with a hooked nose shows up, you know he's gonna be up to no good.
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Sep 16, 2018 23:16
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DeadFatDuckFat posted:At least the racism is obvious in those. When a blue bearded Shemite with a hooked nose shows up, you know he's gonna be up to no good. I'd heard somewhere that Howard supposedly got a bit less racist over time after his time chatting with HPL who was super-hardcore mega-racist even by the standards of the 1920's and that made him step back a bit and soften a few of his views. Even then, he still probably would have been a complete chud by modern standards but he could definitely write a good action scene and set a mood and his Conan stories are still some of my favorites in the genre. Side note - where do you think the Solomon Kane stories would fall in this discussion? On the one hand you've got some pretty hosed up descriptions of some characters during the stories set in Africa but on the other you have characters like N'Longa who is the only other recurring character in that series and pretty much the only friend that Kane seems to have. thoughts and prayers posted:That crack about the drugs is reaching. Where's the nuanced possibility of 'maybe modern antipsychotics would have kept him from cutting his ear off, and committing suicide'? I'm not quite sure what we're discussing at this point - I had just brought up the mental illness bit because I thought that the argument you'd made a few posts back that it may have been that the "non-PC" views of some writers (like HPL) was part of the impetus for their work and what made them great and I felt it sounded similar to that bit about artists. Like, there is a TON of really racist fantasy books out there crammed full of old stereotypes and such and they are almost all really poorly written and super forgettable, so its not like being a "non-PC" dick is a prerequisite for making good fantasy, only that some people who made good fantasy happened to be non-PC dicks which was the original point I'd been trying to make. If someone were to go in and edit out all the racist stuff from the best written Lovecraft and Howard stories they'd still be extremely enjoyable pieces of fiction, whereas if you took that stuff out of those other books I mentioned they'd still be crap. Artists and writers are probably always going to be kind of weird people, but weird and creative doesn't always have to go hand-in-hand with being an antisocial crackpot. Sometimes it does, no doubt, but its not a universal law by any stretch of the imagination - there were plenty of famous artists who died old, respected & with many friends like Monet, one of the founders of the very large artistic movement that Van Gogh was just a small and tragic part of.
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Sep 17, 2018 01:16
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How do the fafhrd and the grey mouser books hold up? I’ve read some of Lieber’s short fiction and enjoyed it and im pretty sure I have a copy of swords against death kicking around somewhere
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Sep 17, 2018 05:07
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RE: racist fantasy writers I think that the fantasy genre itself is especially attractive to a certain sort of mentality that, in its worst incarnations, manifests as racism but is more generally a nostalgia for a world where everything has a place that’s simple and easy to understand. “Dwarves are scottish stereotypes” “Elves are fancy” “Orcs are always chaotic evil” etc... it’s a theme repeated across 90-98% of fantasy that each race has a defined role in the setting and evil always has a tell in a character’s physical appearance. Not all fantasy writers fall into this trap but they are very, very rare.
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Sep 17, 2018 06:18
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free hubcaps posted:How do the fafhrd and the grey mouser books hold up? I’ve read some of Lieber’s short fiction and enjoyed it and im pretty sure I have a copy of swords against death kicking around somewhere They’re pretty baller. I read through most of that series recently and they are a rip-roaring good time with barely any racism.
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Sep 17, 2018 06:19
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Applewhite posted:Your loss, Lyonesse is high literature. I only highlighted the brutality because without even trying JV makes GRRM look like an edgelord bitch baby and still manages to give his work emotional depth and dramatic intensity. Hi OP. Just Downloaded the Audiobook of Suldren’s Garden for this month’s Audible credit. Like it so far. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!
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Sep 17, 2018 07:55
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Winterfist posted:Hi OP. Just Downloaded the Audiobook of Suldren’s Garden for this month’s Audible credit. Like it so far. Thanks for bringing it to my attention! YW. Jack Vance’s worldbuilding is awesome and even the little fictional history he gives before the story actually starts is a treat.
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Sep 17, 2018 08:09
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I listened to The Black Company earlier this year and enjoyed it. Also Blood Meridian came to mind but that's historical fiction (or something) not fantasy
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Sep 17, 2018 09:34
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Fantasy is just historical fiction where the history is fictional too
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Sep 17, 2018 09:35
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OXBALLS DOT COM posted:Fantasy is just historical fiction where the history is fictional too All non-genre fiction is actually sci-fi because it’s set in an alternate timeline where the only major difference is the events of the book took place.
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Sep 17, 2018 09:54
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the best thing jack vance ever wrote is that dying earth story where the protagonist kills somebody and with their dying breath they curse him to live a life of everlasting tedium so he pisses somebody else off until they curse him to die a short and sudden death and then he keeps pissing people off to make them cast contradictory curses on him that all nullify each other
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Sep 17, 2018 11:37
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op I suggest you read the Penthouse series, and make sure you leave them conspicuously around your bachelors apartment so people know you are chill
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Sep 17, 2018 12:24
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Bob Quixote posted:I'd heard somewhere that Howard supposedly got a bit less racist over time after his time chatting with HPL who was super-hardcore mega-racist even by the standards of the 1920's and that made him step back a bit and soften a few of his views. Even then, he still probably would have been a complete chud by modern standards but he could definitely write a good action scene and set a mood and his Conan stories are still some of my favorites in the genre. Usually his best depictions of other races are as noble savages, like Yar Ali in "The Fire of Asshurbannipal." I don't know when in his lifetime it was written, but "The Vale of Lost Women is probably the most overtly racist Conan story. It was only first published in the '60s. It's weird because in the story Conan comes across as genteel for a barbarian because he's adamant about getting consent before sex, but then he has lines like "I've stared at black sluts until I'm sick in the guts." It's the only Conan story I would steer people away from since the rest range in scale from mediocre to genre-defining.
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Sep 17, 2018 12:43
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SleepySonata posted:Anybody have any grimdark recommendations that aren't hella white? This was a couple pages ago, but for nonwhite grimdark you definitely want The Poppy War by R.F. Kuang. The entire second half of the book basically revolves around a thinly veiled fantasy version of The Rape of Nanking, which was really jarring because the first half of the book was written like a goddamn YA novel. It bait-and-switches the reader hard, which is good.
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Sep 17, 2018 13:52
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JebanyPedal posted:I drank my own pee pee once. cool
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Sep 17, 2018 13:59
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Applewhite posted:“Dwarves are scottish stereotypes” who among us hasn't delved too greedily and too deep into a bottle of buckfast abbey fortified wine?
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Sep 18, 2018 19:06
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Applewhite posted:JV does not describe the scenes in gruesome, breathless detail as one would see in so-called “murder porn.” But despite the often succinct manner of the description, JV does such a good job of making the reader interested in the characters that even a cursory description of violence or wrong done to them carries more emotional impact than pages and pages of drool-speckled “grimdark” fantasy from contemporary authors. The style of Lyonesse is poetic and rather droll, so when Vance casually slides into horror while maintaining the same tone, it really does hit you hard.
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Sep 18, 2018 19:41
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Applewhite posted:RE: racist fantasy writers Arguably some of the appeal of fantasy is that the lines are clearly delineated. Sauron is evil. Gandalf is not. Saruman flips but that happens like, immediately. You don't really have to worry about whether Pippin and Merry are going to sell the party out. It's not even a consideration.
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Sep 18, 2018 22:35
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Popular Human posted:This was a couple pages ago, but for nonwhite grimdark you definitely want The Poppy War by R.F. Kuang. The entire second half of the book basically revolves around a thinly veiled fantasy version of The Rape of Nanking, which was really jarring because the first half of the book was written like a goddamn YA novel. It bait-and-switches the reader hard, which is good. Thank you for being a cool dude with a recommendation! 
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Sep 19, 2018 03:36
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I read the trilogy on the OP's advice and only regret that the books ended. I see the brutal stuff as part of the fairy-tale rhythm. Life is all sunny meadows and heady cider and fairy tricks But Then! ogre rapist child slavery But Then! the ogre is defeated and the children are free to feast on his food and steal his treasure But Then! bandits ambush the children and take the treasure and the kids are enslaved again But Then! etc. The story has a beat to it; despair follows hope follows despair follows hope. Fortune changes with every page, and you're hooked. And to keep you hooked and to keep the punches weighty, the story has to move at a heck of a pace. There's no endless descriptions of weather, or scenery, or heartache (some food). A few words do more than the work of many; e.g. SPOILERS FOR REAL "Suldrun descended to the old lime tree and, in the dim light of the stars, she hanged herself." Never saw that coming. Never had time to see that coming. Right to the end though I couldn't help sympathizing with King Casmir. Guy is having the world's worst game of Crusader Kings, and I can dig that.
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Oct 2, 2018 21:27
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Applewhite posted:...GoT on account of the books are so terrible I can hardly stand to read them.... Uhhhhhhhhhh
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Oct 2, 2018 21:33
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You should read the Sword of Truth series where the main character is tortured into loving some chick and kicks a 10 year old girl in the jaw shattering it and is also the author's mouthpiece for his raging Libertarian views. Also the main bad guy takes a 12 year old boy and buries him up to his neck then pours molten lead down his throat. After that he removes the boy's testicles and heart and mashes them together and eats the paste to cast a spell. The bad guy is a vegetarian too so he was totally grossed out by it. That author totally owned vegetarians with that bit.
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Oct 2, 2018 22:10
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MonkeyBot posted:You should read the Sword of Truth series where the main character is tortured into loving some chick and kicks a 10 year old girl in the jaw shattering it and is also the author's mouthpiece for his raging Libertarian views. This sounds radical but I'm a little confused by your post. The "main bad guy" does this awful thing and then "the bad guy" is a vegetarian and so was grossed out?
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Oct 2, 2018 22:17
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Sword of Truth has no empathy for anyone other than the ubermensch main character though, so all the oppressive poo poo just washes by you. It's like reading about horrific torture being applied to a kitchen chair, or a barbie doll. Sword of Truth very passionately, and in an inform-the-authorities level of worrying detail, informs you of monstrous acts inflicted on nobody.
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Oct 2, 2018 22:18
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Often Abbreviated posted:I read the trilogy on the OP's advice and only regret that the books ended.  Often Abbreviated posted:
This threw me sufficiently that I had to put the book down and go and do something else for a bit. Jack Vance is also great at dimly hinted fates worse than death: unwary characters in his books don't just get eaten by monsters lurking in the shadows but carried howling off to prolonged (and possibly eternal) horrors: quote:Nerulf looked up and saw the two standing together. He called out to Dhrun: "What are you doing here? I told you to leave and never return! You disobeyed me and I now sentence you to death." 
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Oct 2, 2018 22:32
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I loving love the monsters in Jack Vance stuff. Herceptors and Deodands and all other remorseless creatures. I'm absolutely certain that the only reason the Dying Earth's Deodands haven't escaped into D&D is that your average GM just isn't capable of pulling off the schtick. A terrifyingly quick and fearsome ghoul who can slice through warriors in a heartbeat but talks like a professor and will happily sit down to a riddle or game of chess if dinner has to be postponed, due to some spell or trick on the part of the morsel. And they're always so cheerful about it!
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Oct 2, 2018 22:44
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Often Abbreviated posted:I loving love the monsters in Jack Vance stuff. Herceptors and Deodands and all other remorseless creatures. I'm absolutely certain that the only reason the Dying Earth's Deodands haven't escaped into D&D is that your average GM just isn't capable of pulling off the schtick. A terrifyingly quick and fearsome ghoul who can slice through warriors in a heartbeat but talks like a professor and will happily sit down to a riddle or game of chess if dinner has to be postponed, due to some spell or trick on the part of the morsel. And they're always so cheerful about it! That kind makes them sound like a combination of Smaug the dragon and Hannibal Lector, which seems like it would work pretty well as a D&D antagonist in the right hands.
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Oct 3, 2018 01:01
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i once read a fannasy where a giant spider bitch sucks a dudes entire dick off! like clean motherfuckin off! he didnt even miss it thats how off he got sucked he followed the bitch around like fighting and poo poo, watching other dudes get their entire dicks sucked clean off spider lady that sucks dudes dicks clean off and makes them forget they had dicks so they become her slaves without dicks to distract them copyright and trademark 2018 by DBA Former DILF
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Oct 3, 2018 01:08
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Applewhite posted:Yeah it makes me sad, too. A lot of times I gotta put the book down and take a breather because it’s so tragic. I often have to do the same....................... with this freakin' thread op!
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Oct 3, 2018 03:26
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