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ashpanash
Apr 9, 2008

I can see when you are lying.

How do you do a Half-Life 2 when Half-Life was so open-ended? That’s the challenge Valve faced, and personally I think they went about it the right way: choose a side. If “your” Gordon Freeman wasn’t that person, well, your adventures would be different. But so what? Swallow their pill and you still get a great game, just one that’s a little less open-ended in terms of your player character.

I understand what you’re saying. Valve did a magic trick with the first game, and it’s a great trick. You can only really do the same trick once, though. If there’s anything beyond the immediate setting and background plot details you can say about Half-Life as a series, it’s that, so far - when it comes to Half-Life, at least - Valve is committed to never doing the same trick twice.

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ScreenDoorThrillr
Jun 23, 2023

ashpanash posted:

How do you do a Half-Life 2 when Half-Life was so open-ended? That’s the challenge Valve faced, and personally I think they went about it the right way: choose a side. If “your” Gordon Freeman wasn’t that person, well, your adventures would be different. But so what? Swallow their pill and you still get a great game, just one that’s a little less open-ended in terms of your player character.

I understand what you’re saying. Valve did a magic trick with the first game, and it’s a great trick. You can only really do the same trick once, though. If there’s anything beyond the immediate setting and background plot details you can say about Half-Life as a series, it’s that, so far - when it comes to Half-Life, at least - Valve is committed to never doing the same trick twice.

So did you betray the Blast Pit worm?

Livo
Dec 31, 2023

ashpanash posted:

How do you do a Half-Life 2 when Half-Life was so open-ended? That’s the challenge Valve faced, and personally I think they went about it the right way: choose a side. If “your” Gordon Freeman wasn’t that person, well, your adventures would be different. But so what? Swallow their pill and you still get a great game, just one that’s a little less open-ended in terms of your player character.

I understand what you’re saying. Valve did a magic trick with the first game, and it’s a great trick. You can only really do the same trick once, though. If there’s anything beyond the immediate setting and background plot details you can say about Half-Life as a series, it’s that, so far - when it comes to Half-Life, at least - Valve is committed to never doing the same trick twice.

True, Valve couldn't just do the same magic trick again. Plus turning very vaguely defined NPCs into fleshed out characters with ret-conned backstories & connections to Gordon is a monumentally difficult task. Valve did a great job of world building and portraying a depressive dystopia of a dying world. I don't know if Marc Laidlaw ever seriously considered saying "Screw it, only Gordon, G-Man & the Black Mesa invasion happened, but no references besides those three things. HL2 is a full clean slate, all new characters, Gordon has absolutely no connection whatsoever or familiar faces in this horrific future, so no Eli, Barney, Kleiner types etc. It'll allow more freedom in the story telling & less baggage to the first game" I'd love to ask Marc that: maybe a 20th Anniversary documentary will do so? Doing that though, would have been a very, very bold move, for the fans, Valve, the publisher, so perhaps they didn't want such a radical decision

You could argue that the start of HL2 has Gordon plucked into a very similar timeline, but some things like Barney being best pals with Gordon, Breen being the administrator of Black Mesa are different to what we experienced in HL1. I kind of like this fan theory explanation. Plus in 2004, meta-verses weren't completely oversaturated to the general audience yet, so it would have felt fairly unique then. I dunno, I've always had this mixed feeling of "Valve had to make more detailed, unique characters with a better fleshed out world, wafer thin plots wasn't going to cut it anymore for the sequel so changes were necessary" vs "I had little but very welcome player agency in how I could express my version of Gordon, even though the main story beats were the same, but that player agency is all gone now for HL2".

cumpantry
Dec 18, 2020

it's not really like HL1 commented on that agency or anything. it was just there. but it didnt harm or change the game so it worked. for HL2 allowing casual friendly fire would pretty much tar the entire narrative. i mean what should you have been allowed to mow down Eli and Alyx? at that point we've strayed too far from what the friendly fire actually does: in the first game, it doesn't matter at all. there aren't any 'character'. in the second game there are and it does.

not that i don't get you liking that aspect of HL1, i liked it too, but wouldnt your HL2 just be the paper thin Dishonored chaos system?

cumpantry
Dec 18, 2020

but the real reason is you were a free man in HL1 and now youre employed. no gunning coworkers in the contract

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Maybe if G-Man's clients didn't have a "no friendly fire" stipulation in the contract then Gordon would have more freedom, man.

Gnome de plume
Sep 5, 2006

Hell.
Fucking.
Yes.
Gord's Odyssey, where you have to save as many vortigaunts as possible to get the best ending

ScreenDoorThrillr
Jun 23, 2023

Gnome de plume posted:

Gord's Odyssey, where you have to save as many vortigaunts as possible to get the best ending

I'm playing through LambdaVR and feel bad every time I shoot one :smith:

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Been playing Half Life 2 again with the VR mod and I forgot how much I love Breen starting his "motivational" speech to the Combine in Nova Prospekt in his typical "reassuring" voice and by the halfway point just going into a rant about how Gordon is just some nerd with a PhD not a special forces soldier or highly trained mercenary SO WHY THE gently caress CAN'T THEY KILL HIM!?! :argh:

Animal-Mother
Feb 14, 2012

RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT

Gnome de plume posted:

Gord's Odyssey

A scientist falls, screaming, down an elevator shaft.

Gordon: "Hee hee hee"

Livo
Dec 31, 2023

cumpantry posted:

it's not really like HL1 commented on that agency or anything. it was just there. but it didnt harm or change the game so it worked. for HL2 allowing casual friendly fire would pretty much tar the entire narrative. i mean what should you have been allowed to mow down Eli and Alyx? at that point we've strayed too far from what the friendly fire actually does: in the first game, it doesn't matter at all. there aren't any 'character'. in the second game there are and it does.

not that i don't get you liking that aspect of HL1, i liked it too, but wouldnt your HL2 just be the paper thin Dishonored chaos system?

Alyx doesn't have infinite health, only very fast health recovery so she can actually die during normal game-play. You get a Game Over Message if she, Barney or Gregori are killed. Specifically, a "Assignment Terminated. Reason: Failure To Preserve Mission-Critical Personnel" message.

Just have the rebels die without any Game Over Messages, give the important NPCs enough health to handle a minor accidental shooting, have them say 1 or 2 lines acknowledging your behaviour (also like the first game) and then continuing their important story dialogue as if you hadn't shot them, for "advancing the plot" reasons. Accidentally shoot an important character in the shoulder once? Whoops, but luckily you have a second chance. Shoot them with a shotgun in the head, Game Over. It's definitely not perfect, but a "well, good enough" solution without doing all kinds of crazy branching storylines. You could also screw with minor Deus Ex 1 characters & important NPCs just by shooting them, but most players on probably didn't do that deliberately the first time. Oh well, I have to deal with it :shrug:

On a different note, I also really appreciate the slow panic building up in Breen's messages as he realises Gordon's overwhelming the prison security :discourse:

CJacobs
Apr 17, 2011

Reach for the moon!
Well, if Gordon is supposed to be you, then you probably should know that your every move is being watched by an essentially omnipotent being that can warp you out of reality whenever he wants. Every person who plays Half-Life knows that and is forced to acknowledge that. You may be a little more hesitant to act like a psycho after finding that out.

It's not that you cannot harm rebels and vortigaunts anymore, it's that you will not harm them anymore. I bet you would still shoot em if G-Mom wasn't watching you, young man.

CJacobs fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Feb 13, 2024

Livo
Dec 31, 2023

CJacobs posted:

Well, if Gordon is supposed to be you, then you probably should know that your every move is being watched by an essentially omnipotent being that can warp you out of reality whenever he wants. Every person who plays Half-Life knows that and is forced to acknowledge that. You may be a little more hesitant to act like a psycho after finding that out.

It's not that you cannot harm rebels and vortigaunts anymore, it's that you will not harm them anymore.

Very good point, it'd be overwhelming & horrifying for Gordon to face the reality warping powers by the G-Man being dumped decades from prior events, he'd probably try to be on his best behaviour.

Another way to put my thoughts might be the "I'm screwed by the G-Man & other vast powers beyond human comprehension, I'm literally an ant to these forces: but I still have a tiny bit of control in how I can respond to this poo poo sandwich. I can be live up to the legend and save everyone even at my own risk, I can accidentally kill a few rebels in the crossfire if I must in order to defeat a greater threat, or be a crazy lunatic: this is the only real choice I have and I'm going to use it" game play narrative. HL1 had this limited player self expression present. The leaked HL2 beta allowed rebels and Vortigaunts to be killed, so Valve in late 2003 still thought friendly fire was an acceptable gameplay/narrative decision.

But then again, if Marc Laidlaw always meant this to be a "Your few choices are even more meaningless and limited, as the Combine Empire is so powerful: I wanted a narrative where you're completely stripped of all self control compared to the first game, since you're so insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Your name is a sick joke as you're not actually 'Free Man at all so no friendly fire at all.", then he did a brilliant job. I salute him if that's what he intended all along. As I said earlier, I'd genuinely love to have a long chat with him about during HL2 and how much gameplay vs story clashed with his creative decisions, given how hectic the development was.

Little bit of trivia: Valve spelt wheel as "wheele" in the Airboat Physics code, so it only has 3 points of contact for steering, instead of the intended 4. They still haven't fixed this, but there's a mod for it.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Unlocked the Super Gravity Gun in the Citadel. Always forget how loving fun it is just tossing Combine Soldiers and Striders 500 feet through the air and tearing viewscreens and control consoles out of their housing to wipe out a line of soldiers coming at you :hellyeah:

Beve Stuscemi
Jun 6, 2001




Super gravity gun is crazy fun but I’m glad they kept its time short, being that wildly OP would get boring after a couple levels

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Oh absolutely, it's timed perfectly, especially as it comes when you think you're getting the standard and hated "now you get stripped of all your weapons in a cutscene" bit except this time it turns out that this leaves you with the most overpowered weapon in the game and you can just go ham on what is supposed to be the deadliest place on the planet and it's so loving cool.

Captain Hygiene
Sep 17, 2007

You mess with the crabbo...



Yeah, one of my favorite things about HL2 is its finely honed flow in what it gives you to play with. As much as I liked the later episodes, they couldn't replicate that because you just don't have much room to breathe when you're basically chopping a game into thirds that have to stand on their own.

Gnome de plume
Sep 5, 2006

Hell.
Fucking.
Yes.
it's nice when games throw in a section like that either near the end or at the start: here comes a normally pretty challenging enemy force, have a super weapon, or a big mech or all your abilities unlocked at max with no limitations, go loving wild

Grimthwacker
Aug 7, 2014

I'm trying to play Echoes, but for some reason after extracting the files to the Half-Life folder where they're supposed to be it's not showing up in my Steam library like it should.

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Did that mod that was supposed to link all the Half Life 2 maps together without loading screens ever get finished?

Grimthwacker
Aug 7, 2014

Half-Life: Echoes has been really polished so far. I'm up to part 7 and, apart from some awkward sections, I'm enjoying it a lot. It's a hell of a lot darker than the fairly frequently brightly lit areas of Black Mesa and my flashlight barely helps in most areas.

I also downloaded Minerva for later, after I take care of the Half-Life 2 episodes with MMod.

Grimthwacker
Aug 7, 2014

Half-Life: Echoes: 7/10, good but not as great as I was lead to believe. It had a lot of awkward sections, and the protracted combat sequence at the end really showcased the flaws with Half-Life's gunplay. Also trying to shoehorn Episode 3 details into there, while having you play as a nameless schmoe with no real reason to be there. Seriously, what was the point? At least in Delta Particles you were supposed to be an established security personnel.

Next up for me: Episode 1 MMod.

Animal-Mother
Feb 14, 2012

RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT
The super gravity gun is the akimbo WSTE-M5 Combat Shotguns of Half-Life.

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwXd-yTbxqc

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

...Okay?

What am I supposed to be getting from that?

Grimthwacker
Aug 7, 2014

LividLiquid posted:

...Okay?

What am I supposed to be getting from that?

Hmmm. . . Half-Life orange, Blue Shift blue, Opposing Force green. . . no idea what the purple might represent. I know that some team was trying to give the Black Mesa treatment to the expansions. Honestly not a lot to go on right now.

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Grimthwacker posted:

Hmmm. . . Half-Life orange, Blue Shift blue, Opposing Force green. . . no idea what the purple might represent. I know that some team was trying to give the Black Mesa treatment to the expansions. Honestly not a lot to go on right now.

If it is indeed the black mesa treatment to the expansions, it's presumably either uplink or decay.

Gnome de plume
Sep 5, 2006

Hell.
Fucking.
Yes.
yeah, feels very much like "watch this place, in the meantime please speculate and appreciate our slick video production skills."

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Gnome de plume posted:

yeah, feels very much like "watch this place, in the meantime please speculate and appreciate our slick video production skills."

They've got a new mailing list prompt on their site, which is probably the point.

Toast King
Jun 22, 2007

I finally got to play and finish Alyx years after it came out, seems like it still might be one of the best VR games. Just incredibly fun and ran so well for something that looked this good.

Anyway I wanted to add that the headcrab perched on top of a mannequin head in a room somewhere was good and funny.

Gnome de plume
Sep 5, 2006

Hell.
Fucking.
Yes.
still not tired of this meme yet
https://youtu.be/WmZR8unlw8s
[HLA spoilers]

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Animal-Mother
Feb 14, 2012

RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT
Pick up that can. Of delicious Cerveza Cristal!

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