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KingEup posted:It’s time to de-escalate the situation: I love how much these pissbaby cowards do this poo poo and then poo poo themselves at the sight of a leftist with a baseball bat, let alone a firearm. also the total  that is crying about the violent leftists while also treating leftists as cowardly pinkos who don't know what a gun is
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May 31, 2020 17:07
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May 31, 2020 20:53
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Bush era Disney channel is very influential. Edit: So what is establishment democrats take on these protests? I have friend who I use as a weather vain for them and he is perplexed that protests are still happening. side_burned fucked around with this message at 21:39 on May 31, 2020 |
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May 31, 2020 21:36
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side_burned posted:Bush era Disney channel is very influential. 
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Jun 1, 2020 00:09
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   One of the good apples, Ryan Turner of the Montana highway patrol
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Jun 1, 2020 00:16
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https://twitter.com/markbski/status/1266913049501331456?s=21
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Jun 1, 2020 12:30
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https://twitter.com/TheRealDrDavis/status/1266927765980356608?s=20 Yes, such a tragedy, the loss of this promising young cheesecake to perfidious agitators.
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Jun 1, 2020 14:25
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I cant even keep up with it now because theres just so much hectic poo poo and footage and info pouring out
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Jun 1, 2020 15:14
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Hey, can someone give me a reliable source on the use of agent provocateur tactics by police in the US? Not a random person on Twitter please, I know someone who’s in utter disbelief at the idea that cops would genuinely break property and stir up riots but is willing to change their mind with a decent amount of evidence
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Jun 1, 2020 16:03
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Nckdictator posted:Hey, can someone give me a reliable source on the use of agent provocateur tactics by police in the US? Not a random person on Twitter please, I know someone who’s in utter disbelief at the idea that cops would genuinely break property and stir up riots but is willing to change their mind with a decent amount of evidence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO It's common knowledge at this point that it was a huge part of the crackdown on, for one example, the Black Panthers. Why would anyone believe that they just stopped?
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Jun 1, 2020 16:48
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Let's attack a medical tent! Yeah that will show those protesters! https://www.ashevillenc.gov/news/asheville-police-chief-david-zack-issues-statement/ quote:As the Chief of Police I understand the concern has been raised over the destruction of water, food, and medical supplies. The Asheville Police Department (APD) would always prefer confiscation over destruction. We apologize for not being able to confiscate these supplies last night. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/03/asheville-north-carolina-police-seen-destroying-protesters-supplies/3135539001/ StarPilot87 fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Jun 4, 2020 |
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Jun 4, 2020 14:35
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Insanite posted:https://twitter.com/TheRealDrDavis/status/1266927765980356608?s=20 My heart goes out to the grieving family
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Jun 4, 2020 23:22
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Police violence is class violence, so it is not at all surprising that a oligarchy like USA would suffer from it, a lot.
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Jun 6, 2020 02:49
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKHsGh-y8d8 Brother Ali - Mourning in America (Official Video)
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Jun 6, 2020 17:22
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(X-post from USPOL because I didn’t know about this thread, my bad): Seems to me that a huge, undiscussed obstacle to replacing police with some kind of comprehensive social services agency, which seems to be the broad goal of people calling for police abolition, is federalism and the immense degree of jurisdictional fragmentation present in local government. American cities and their accompanying sprawling metro areas are a mess of overlapping city limits, jurisdictions and districts that will hugely complicate any effort to establish a municipal welfare state or comprehensive social services agency. Centralizing local governments and annexing small cities into larger ones would be necessary. I’m all for this, as I don’t think any city with a population under like 50k should be allowed to have its own government anyway, but it’s something that seems to get left out of a lot of these discussions.
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Jun 8, 2020 03:11
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Still Dismal posted:I don’t think any city with a population under like 50k should be allowed to have its own government anyway Say what? I grew up in a town of 500 people and we had our own village administration and "mayor." He was a really good guy (actually a Vietnam draft dodger who never left the lovely embrace of small-town BC), but he smoked Canadian Classics, so it was terrible if you bummed a smoke off him. Still, there were issues that only concerned our town, and needed to be addressed by him and his staff of four or five people. There's nothing wrong with that, and whenever there was a contentious issue, it was best that it was handled on a local level rather than having a decision imposed by the district or province. That being said, we certainly did not have our own police force, and he was very often at odds with our RCMP detachment because he certainly enjoyed smoking more than just tobacco.
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Jun 8, 2020 03:51
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Still Dismal posted:(X-post from USPOL because I didn’t know about this thread, my bad): Sorry, whats the question?
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Jun 8, 2020 04:23
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Still Dismal posted:(X-post from USPOL because I didn’t know about this thread, my bad): I don't see why that's the case - after all, it's not a problem for existing social services. Plenty of social services are handled at the county or state level in the US, not the local government level.
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Jun 8, 2020 04:56
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Main Paineframe posted:I don't see why that's the case - after all, it's not a problem for existing social services. Plenty of social services are handled at the county or state level in the US, not the local government level. I think maybe this person is imagining the police would merge with hospitals and social workers and child protective services and etc to form one super public health and safety force?
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Jun 8, 2020 05:01
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Yeah exactly, most police abolition proposals I've seen seem to imagine replacing the police with some kind of general "public welfare" agency that handles problems more holistically, doing social work, etc. I'm not opposed to that, but something that would have to be grappled with is how incredibly fragmented the governments of most American cities are, because that would require more coordination among various services than we have right now, and would be a lot more difficult to manage without consolidating cities. To get an idea of the fragmentation of local governments I'm talking about, look at city limits map sometime for any major city. There are tons of little carveouts and gerrymandered areas. Austin is particularly bad, with multiple separate jurisdictions, with their own government and everything, existing within the city limits.
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Jun 8, 2020 06:31
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My interpretation of abolition is not the creation of a monolithic agency for the provision of all public health and safety functions and I've never seen that proposed. Main Painframe had it when they pointed out that we already have most of these services to varying degrees despite our 'fragmentation'. Like, we currently have Police Departments, Fire Departments, health districts, school districts, public housing that interact with CPS and OSHA and L&I and etc??? Edit: I feel like a lot of people are coming into this thread to point out that a transition to a radically transformed system of public services that abolishes policing as we know it will be difficult and complicated but, no poo poo? Crumbskull fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Jun 8, 2020 |
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Jun 8, 2020 06:58
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Yeah but the whole point is to provide something better than what we have right now, right? You can have a million little fiefdoms if your solution to social issues is sending people off to the county jail or state prison, or kicking them over the city limits so they aren't your issue any more. But if you're trying to actually address the root causes of the things that we have the police deal with now, this mishmash of overlapping or carved out jurisdictions is going to be more of an issue. To say nothing of the fact that the reason for a lot of these weird boundaries, particularly in suburban areas, is historical/ongoing racism, and probably isn't unconnected to the reasons that so many police departments are so bad. Jurisdictional consolidation seems like a necessary part of the solution to me.
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Jun 8, 2020 07:12
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What will we do about violence that needs to be stopped? I’m all game for defunding the cops, but it’s one aspect that I feel like is being glossed over a bit. A school shooting happening right now, or a dangerous cultist shooting from an apartment. What is to be done about them? Maintaining a small armed response force?
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Jun 8, 2020 08:02
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Vahakyla posted:What will we do about violence that needs to be stopped? I’m all game for defunding the cops, but it’s one aspect that I feel like is being glossed over a bit. A school shooting happening right now, or a dangerous cultist shooting from an apartment. What is to be done about them? Maintaining a small armed response force? there's a better thread to talk about that than here, check out the "f the police" thread
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Jun 8, 2020 10:14
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Police do not currently stop violence and according to the Supreme Court that's not even part of their job description. The job of the police is to arrest criminals, not to stop crimes.
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Jun 8, 2020 10:57
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Clarste posted:Police do not currently stop violence and according to the Supreme Court that's not even part of their job description. The job of the police is to arrest criminals, not to stop crimes. Not to you know, make this personal, but the comeback isn’t hard. Without a literal federal agent, my wife would be dead. Like, dead dead. They do stop violence occasionally, and there’s plenty of poo poo out there where intervention of some sort of armed service is required. Armed response isn’t needed for the vast majority of incidents, and that’s what the issue is with utiling a force who mainly trains for violent incidents to do these tasks, along with the institutional racism and other societal issues. The supreme court decision isn’t a good example. Fire departments don’t have a legal obligation to stop fires, either. You can’t make a public agency liable for crime or accidents, since then you could sue them for failing to prevent them.
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Jun 8, 2020 11:35
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Vahakyla posted:Not to you know, make this personal, but the comeback isn’t hard. Without a literal federal agent, my wife would be dead. Like, dead dead. I'm sure this is a delicate topic for you personally, but bystanders can also stop crimes. The police aren't "special" in that sense, and relying on them to do so is dangerous because of A) the lack of legal duty and B) their history of not helping people who do. For example, the police regularly fail to enforce restraining orders, which predictably often leads to people getting killed. Vahakyla posted:The supreme court decision isn’t a good example. Fire departments don’t have a legal obligation to stop fires, either. You can’t make a public agency liable for crime or accidents, since then you could sue them for failing to prevent them. Cities are constantly getting sued for people tripping on sidewalks. Doctors and lawyers can get sued for malpractice. Why should police be exempted from this? Clarste fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Jun 8, 2020 |
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Jun 8, 2020 12:08
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Clarste posted:Cities are constantly getting sued for people tripping on sidewalks. Doctors and lawyers can get sued for malpractice. Why should police be exempted from this? What you described isn’t a good system, though. We shouldn’t try to emulate. Accountability of public services should not be suing. It works as a remedy now, but this isn’t a great system. You can not sue doctors or sidewalk builders in many countries that have better socialist systems, because the idea is that the doctor gets reprimanded and dealt with by the system, and the person’s survival is guaranteed by robust disability and welfare system. Having to rely on the public in these situations starts sounding like a mob rule. What if the dude has a pistol when this RANDOM person is in their trunk? Do we want all citizens to carry? I don’t want my health care or welfare systems to rely on private citizens or bystanders, either. All services that are deemed to be necessary should be provided by the government. This isn’t my sentimental posting, there’s very real violent situations out there that need some sort of violent response. I often found cops to be useless during my time as a firefighter, serving no purpose on the calls we partook in. But occasionally you’d walk into some balls to the wall craziness where someone’s life was saved due to the police response. The world would of course get less violent with better social services, and that’s what this police defunding and reform will help with. But it’s not gonna completely erase it. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Jun 8, 2020 |
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Jun 8, 2020 12:12
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One thing I am having difficulty finding is while the move to defund has got legs Minneapolis is moving straight to full abolishment to be replaced by a community organisation. My question is how does this factor into criminal investigation, in that of a crime been committed and to solve. Those are technical skills that would require to be maintained rather than thrown out with the rest. Something as simple as a hit and run for example. If the information is out there please help me see it because currently theres been a fair bit of mixed messaging in the combination of defund the police vs abolish the police.
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Jun 8, 2020 12:39
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There's also plenty of other situations where the use of force, or at least the threat of force, in order to uphold the law is required. Like if they go to arrest someone for murder that person probably isn't going to let themselves get taken away just like that. Plus, relying on bystanders to stop crimes is a terrible idea because untrained vigilantes wading into situations they can't handle are likely to get themselves killed. There's no reason to think they'd be any less prone to using excessive force than the cops, either, even if they did manage to catch the criminal.
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Jun 8, 2020 13:51
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yeah, but that's what the people's militia is for.
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Jun 8, 2020 13:56
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Truga posted:yeah, but that's what the people's militia is for. For high risk warrant service?
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Jun 8, 2020 13:59
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Still Dismal posted:Yeah exactly, most police abolition proposals I've seen seem to imagine replacing the police with some kind of general "public welfare" agency that handles problems more holistically, doing social work, etc. I'm not opposed to that, but something that would have to be grappled with is how incredibly fragmented the governments of most American cities are, because that would require more coordination among various services than we have right now, and would be a lot more difficult to manage without consolidating cities. There's no reason that social welfare or public safety agencies have to be divided up at the municipality level. And in fact, there's plenty that aren't. Child Protective Services, for example, is a state-level agency. Most regulatory entities for enforcing state law regulations are state-level. Prisons are generally administered at the state level. In the US, there are state-level police agencies, and usually county-level police agencies as well. That's not to say, of course, that having things divided up is necessarily a bad thing. In a community-focused model, you'd want services and agencies divided up at an even lower level than current municipal jurisdictional boundaries.
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Jun 8, 2020 14:11
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Leaving them at too small level leaves them highly vulnerable to local municipal political shittery. There’s really no good argument to have the governing authority to be municipal level.
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Jun 8, 2020 14:24
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EDIT: Ignore. This is the wrong thread for this.
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