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Great LP GI! Yeah I think inexperience with the industrial side really doomed you here but the thing with shields and the whole strategic bombardment aspect of the game are rather painful and underdeveloped. I'm wondering how hte meta will change with air units now allowing you to hit back at things like missile launchers or even having their own strategic capabilities.
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Nov 22, 2020 21:23
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So I finally got to read this thread and write down some of my thoughts. I'm going to talk about the early game and part of the first war here, I'll do more posts about the 1st war, the inter-war and the 2nd war later. If anyone has any questions I'm more than happy to answer those. I can still get all the old turn files to look things up as well.quote:It was my first multiplayer game of Shadow Empire, and I think my second grand strategy multiplayer game in general. It was also by far the furthest down the tech tree I've gotten in Shadow Empire. The game lasted from July 4th to November 5th including about a month and a half of downtime as real life took over for various things. Overall, it's probably one of the most fun experiences I've ever had playing video games even if the last couple of rounds were absolute torture. This was my 2nd MP game of Shadow Empire, my first being documented in the LP by Saros, which is going rather slowly unfortunately. So effectively for most of the game this was my first game of SE as well. Similarly I've not played much grand strategy MP before, and I've never gotten very far into SE in single player (still haven't) because it's just so much more fun against people. Even the best AI can only get so interesting and the SE AI is... ok, I guess. However, this was also for me the most fun I've had playing a video game in many, many years. So thanks to Vic (the developer of SE) and Generation Internet for that. - Starting position I've already complained to GI a bunch about this, but ultimately this did also end up being super satisfying: my starting position loving sucked. My capital was in the middle of nowhere, meaning it had no existing road connections to anything. I was surrounded by 1 mutant, 1 arachnid and 2 slaver factions. For those not familiar, slavers loving suuuuuck in the early game, as they bring numbers, decent buggies and tanks, and are aggressive. Mutants and arachnids are more managable, but still mean having to fight through a bunch of dudes to get any expansion done. This means I had to fight for drat near everything. On top of that, my spawn had no metal, and a grand total of only 3 ruins patches. And we played a militia only tech 3, no council start, aka, the most basic, undeveloped start you can get. So every single road, building and even nearly every city, with the exception of Sondgrau and Wilhelmkau, that you see in my entire empire was put there by me. Which means I needed a ton of industry. Easiest way to get more industry early on is capture neutral cities, especially farmers. The closest of those were aformentioned Songrau and Wilhelmkau, which were actually far away. So far that I had no road to them. So I also didn't know which direction they were in. My start was loving rough, ok? - Economy I did identify immediately that the only way I was going to be able to do anything at all was if I could put down enough roads to find a city to conquer. So I'd need industry. I think the 3 main lessons here are: 1. Resources should be spent ASAP, especially early game 2. Identify what is bottlenecking you and focus everything on increasing your production of this bottleneck. If you think you have more than one bottleneck, you failed at analyzing your situation. Usually the bottleneck is metal early on, sometimes water, then industry, and then it tends to flip between metal and industry for a long time with occasionally food and fuel becoming important. In the lategame rare metals, machines and hi-tech start to matter. 3. Until (maybe, debatably) very late into the game or very specific situations, it is always better to increase your throughput of your resources by spending what you have now so that you will produce more, than it is to build up a stockpile. So from turn 1 onwards, I acquired metal every way I could (prioritize conquering and developing those ruins patches, which were sadly to my east, and so set me on an otherwise fruitless expansion path), sell everything I can to traders and buy metal, play every fate card that would net me metal I could. Meanwhile, in principle, every unit of metal was to be poured into industry unless something else was so important I'd die without it. So sometimes I needed troops, or logistics, or food, or bureaucratic points. And all of that costs metal, but I'd only invest metal in any of that if absolutely necessary, and then I'd try to go for the bare minimum. I think I also played some civilian industrialist fate card(s), I don't exactly remember. But I absolutely would if I was given the chance. Given the starting positions of both my opponents, with nearby neutrals, more ruins patches, and metal mines, they would and should have utterly crushed me had they been as ruthless with their economic prioritization. I was very aware that by all rights I should be incredibly far behind, and was putting my hopes for victory on the two of them ending up in a big war I'd be able to take advantage of to grab neutrals or an AI major, discover some metal and develop myself to maybe catch up. Things turned out rather different. - Gambit I caught what felt like a huge break when I guaranteed Rostock and the AI major invaded it, which means I took ownership. I managed to field a defense by deploying a 2nd HQ, and ferrying supplies over through using the traders (if you sell them resources with one SHQ, the other SHQ can then purchase those resources, at a markup, ofcourse). It was my first time deploying a 2nd SHQ, which did mean I hosed up a bunch and everything took like 3 turns longer than it should have. The opportunity I saw here was threefold: 1. Rostock was filled with metal, which was still my big bottleneck 2. While Rostock was very far away, my industrial output at this point was such that I could put in a lot of roads and some truck stations and supply depots very quickly 3. On the way to Rostock was a big ruins patch I could develop for metal, hopefully finally get some artifacts out of and thus was a natural truck stop on the road to the real prize: Rostock. This ended up becoming Blue Baths. So if I could just integrate and develop Rostock and hold on to it for a while, just maybe I could start that comeback. The threats were obvious: 1. An AI major was coming at me hard, and I couldn't get my experienced troops there yet as there was a vast wilderness between me and Rostock. 2. If I even managed to link up Rostock in time, it would be on the extreme far end of a very long supply line. Which wasn't a huge pipeline to begin with, as I'd been skimping on everything. 3. Rostock was much closer to Generation Internet than the rest of my empire. And must look very juicy with all that metal right there on the border. Initially GI helped me by invading the Sparenhausen AI major, effectively destroying this AI's capacity to wage war on Rostock. Worryingly though, this gave GI a big border with Rostock, though it did buy me some time as he had to spent turns mopping up the AI. The Rostock terrain is mostly flat and rocky, aka, utterly loving indefensible. Especially against technologically superior troops, likely to be supported by more armoured assets than I could field. So I decided to fully commit to the gambit I had started: I was very weak, but I would do everything I could to appear strong and confident and try to cow GI into respecting the borders as long as possible, using every turn to soak up that metal and actually realize the threat I'd be presenting. As such, I started diplomacy with GI on Discord to try to hammer out a deal for peace in our time, to both our benefit, ofcourse! I'd magnaminously allow him to conquer the AI major's two cities, while laying claim to Lodmont (which also had metal I think, but also meant a much better border position for me vis-a-vis GI). I'd also help him mop up the AI major. The whole idea here was to project strength: I'm killing AI troops, while sending dudes to conquer a city, just like he was doing. Maybe he'd see me as more equal than we actually were. My actual estimation was that I must be very far behind, with both GI and Munashe on hopefully even footing. I was also aware they shared a border. Having skimped on everything, I did not have enough spies to have any better of an indication of where things were actually at. So my hope was that GI would see attacking me as just a little too expensive to pull off while Munashe was in his back. While at the same time finding me friendly and reasonable enough to consider a long term alliance in which I could help him take out Munashe first. Crucially, this would allow me to take on the Rochfort and perhaps even Belfort AIs first, using their resources to get back into the game. Especially the Rochfort AI was worrying, as it had taken a hostile, extortive stance against me, and I was expecting it to declare war at any moment. It had huge amounts of technologically advanced troops. So it was a real threat to me. - Timing This bold gambit meant completely abandoning anything approaching an adequate defensive stance around Rostock, which I found acceptable because I didn't have the terrain to make such a stance work even if I fully committed to it. The lack of spies meant GI caught me unaware when he decided to actually attack, though ofcourse I had considered it a strong possibility. I tend to find players are less aggressive than they should be in these types of games however, so that was the gamble I took, and lost. GI attacked me when I was at my most overextended, and he struck hard and fast at my metal in Rostock, though he did allow significantly more units than necessary to slip away. While the opening turns of the war was as disastrous as expected, and GI had a tech advantage as I had feared, I noticed the tech advantage was not disastrously large, nor did GI field numbers I would be completely unable to deal with, especially in terms of armoured assets. - Warplan v1 That said, from the moment war was declared, I was in crisis mode, and I spent almost the entire first war solving one acute crisis after another, again using the ruthless bottleneck type analysis described above. The first problem was troops, which I could raise in good numbers, fortunately. The second was the logistics to get them to the front and keep them supplied. As my army grew, food became an issue as well. I think fully solving the logistics must have taken at least 20 turns, easily a majority of the war. The only fortunate points here were two new metal deposits: one discovered in the mountains to the south-east of what later became Keats and one in the Blue Baths ruins. This was enough metal for me to finally be able to Do Stuff. The initial plan was to establish a defensive line using MG formations in the mountains to the north and north-east of Blue Baths, with a nice, dense forest behind them to fall back to, and if absolutely necessary the ruins hexes north of Blue Baths as a last defensive line. Given the deployment of GI's troops, it looked like these forces would have to use their defensive positions to bear the brunt of the attack coming in from Lodmont, Sparenhausen and Rostock in the north and north-east. Meanwhile, assault and siege infantry formations, supported by further armoured brigades, would mount simultaneous attacks over the road to take back Rostock, threaten encirclement of the formations engaged with my MG troops in the mountains, and threaten GI's crucial logistics infrastructure in Calar. If I could just create enough problems all at once, hopefully something would give and present opportunity. This plan failed miserably. My logistics were so poor I couldn't deploy fast enough to threaten anything before GI could raise more troops. Even my best formations coulnd't win a fight involving anywhere close to even numbers in open ground due to the tech disadvantage. The far northern mountain range (the same one that me crossing eventually ended up deciding the war) was overrun before I could establish a proper position on it. Meanwhile I was laying into Munashe hard on Discord, painting the situation as apocalyptic. GI was conquering tens of thousands of metal (true), which he'd use to easily run away with the game (should have been true), unless we pressure him severely right now and create too many problems for him to handle at once. Thus he should open a second front forthwith. Even a single OHQ less attacking me could shift the balance from crushing defeat to a slog, which would buy me time. He didn't strike as fast as I had hoped he would. And when he did strike I almost preferred he didn't. Had GI diverted some armoured assets I feel like he could've rolled over Munashe, and then used the captured industry to destroy me. Thankfully this did not happen. - Warplan v2 Maintain defensive positions with MG brigades on the mountains NE of BB and in the forest N of BB. Anchor the line on the lakes. Make the enemy bleed for every hex, and hopefully trade favourably in terms of losses. Biggest worry is GI extending the front to the other side of the lakes, which is less defensible terrain without logistics infrastructure on my part. On the other hand, him doing so does open up the possibility of a counter attack through the forest and due North. Deploy some of the new Assault Guns to the forest because it is otherwise the softest part of my defense, I need to be able to counter-punch his massing artillery and threaten such a counter attack in case he tacks West. Collapse back from previously aggressive stance towards Rostock and Calar. Southern troops to take up a defensive posture on the low mountain range to the SE of BB. Mountains SE and NE are at roughly the same X-axis position vs the road running between them. This means any attack directly towards BB over the open ground the road is on would necessarely funnel itself into a pocket. Surely this would dissuade anyone from even making such an attack, presented with such obvious threats to the flanks. Noone would willingly Cannae themselves, right? So I'd win time as GI would have to dislodge entrenched forces from mountains first, before commencing the eventual attack on Blue Baths. Furthermore, at this point BB has value to me for its metal mine, and no other reason. The place is a glorified truck stop. My real power lies across a vast mountainrange to the south, in Sondgrau, Wilhelmkau and Regula. GI's initial war declaration spoke of a limited war for Rostock and Lodmont however, so if I can keep my mine in Blue Baths I absolutely want to. I was hoping for GI to either stop short of BB, or to take it and then stop. In case he didn't I was expecting another fighting retreat, with the real defensive line formed along the road from Sondgrau to Blue Baths, roughly West of the mountain range seperating Songrau and Blue Baths, and the battle there deciding my fate. Had GI offered peace after taking Lodmont and Rostock, I likely would have taken it. He also likely would have been able to use that metal and the extra time to build up industry to win the game. - Industrial warfare and logistics I could achieve parity or even superior numbers to GI from the get-go, but I couldn't get them to the front or keep the supplied properly, so there was no sense building even more troops. Instead, I kept investing that metal and IP into logistics and further industry. The idea being to keep building a better warmachine with which to eventually overwhelm. Once I achieved a relatively stable front, I deliberately started skimping on troops in favour of industry, figuring it was better to win a decisive strategic victory later, than tactical victories now. This was most notable imo with the deployment of the Blitzer IV. When this model first hit the field, it tore through everything. I could've deployed significantly more of them quicker, and thrown GI back, but I don't think they could've ended the war at that point before GI developed a counter strong enough to achieve another stalemate. These were extremely difficult, yet also extremely fun, choices to make. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Nov 23, 2020 |
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Nov 23, 2020 11:18
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- loving tanks, man So it turns out Assault Guns loving own against infantry, potentially even in forests. I believe there's a real role for them using howitzers even after you've discovered laser weaponry. However I also learned that you never, ever loving spearhead with tanks, as they get cut off for even a turn and, even with good readiness and fuel fueling, they can't even loving try to break themselves out. And that's the story of how the troops in the Northern forest lost their only counter-punch weapon and started dying to massed artillery followed by infantry assault after their readiness and entrenchment had been shot to loving hell. At least I had a lot of terrain to be pushed back on, and plenty of bodies to keep throwing into this absolute clusterfuck of a grinder. Also turns out that GI was actually perfectly willing to Cannae himself right between my mountains by jamming a whole fuckton of tanks right the gently caress up that road and straight towards Blue Baths and not actually having his flanks threatened through a combination of concentrated numbers and APCs with big loving machine guns and lasers. This isn't how this was supposed to go. I also learned AT guns do jack poo poo to counter tanks, at least in this kind of terrain. Maybe they're useful in ruins? But I doubt it, the drat things cost nearly as much to produce as actual tanks and uhh, they aren't tanks. Tanks however, are tanks. And from the model III onwards, the Blitzer started to be able to do some loving work. But meanwhile... - Warplan v3 All my logistics for the entire front hinges on Blue Baths at this point. If it falls before I've commenced an orderly retreat, I'm hosed. That's probably 3 brigades in the forest just completely wiped out. So can't let that happen. But also can't collapse them back any further for fear of that loving artillery and the increasingly veteran troops with them threatening a wraparound around Blue Baths and cutting it off that way. The mountains in the NE still anchor everything nicely. The mountains in the SE have been bypassed, so need to be evacuated ASAP to avoid being cut off. That's good though, because the new plan is to throw as many loving bodies in the way of the advance as I can, with as much heavy equipment as I can spit out. So 6th brigade can get off their drat mountains and join 2nd, 4th and 7th in taking turns getting punched in the face. Just maybe, if I do a defense in depth with enough troops, I can get GI's tip of the spear to exhaust itself. Whenever he gets greedy and overextends, even slightly, hit him back with my own armour, which does better on the attack than on the defense anyway, and try to get his readiness down to the point where he can't attack. I took a lot of casualties doing this, but I had the industry to replace them. My spies meanwhile had informed me that GI should not be able to keep pace once he ran out of reserves. The next part of the plan was to hope that he would run out of reserves before I ran out of hexes. My real hope here was actually GI's implementation of laser infantry. At first they were a huge problem, as he got them before I did, and made good use of his newly deadly infantry to support his armoured push. But his units up north never seemed to be getting these upgrades, so I wasn't pushed quite as hard as I was afraid I'd be. There's only two possible reasons for this, either he didn't have the logistics or he didn't have the industrial capacity. And if logistics was the problem, well, industrial capacity and metal can solve that right quick, and I knew he had metal. Also, during this phase, I regretted so much just plonking down Blue Baths on the optimal hex for my logistics network through to Rostock and not ever even considering "what if this place became the focal point of a war and had to be defended at all costs?". Had I done so, I would have build the drat city two hexes further West, all the way in the back of the ruins, so GI would have had to fight through all of them before ever threatening the place. This was easily one of my, if not my biggest, unforced errors. Fortunately it wasn't punished as hard as it could have been. - Formations It turns out Siege Infantry brigades (infantry + artillery) are really loving good on the defensive. They are excellent at counterbattery, both killing more enemy artillery than you'd expect while taking fewer casualties, and also able to cut short enemy bombardments, thus preserving entrenchment and readiness for your troops. I did not expect this, but these guys turned out to be loving lifesavers. On the other hand I'm very well aware that the French approach of parcelling out tanks with the infantry turned out to be a wee bit less effective than the German approach of concentrating your armour in specific formations. But you know, the game presents the Assault Infantry brigades (infantry + light tanks) as further down the tree and I also know using tanks on their own, without infantry support, is supposed to be a death sentence. Turns out this OOB is a trap and there is no combined arms penalty or bonus or whatever present at all. So attacking with only tanks is about as effective as attacking with the tanks plus infantry, only you'll take much fewer casualties. Fortunately, by the time GI is right outside Blue Baths, the Blitzer IV has rolled around and I've got the logistics, the fuel supply and the industrial capacity to support that fucker. On the one bright side, OHQs can only take 2 support units, so these Assault Infantry brigades did let me just straight up put more tanks in the field and under effective leadership than GI could do. So I guess they sort of kind of maybe have a point? Anyway, the dedicated Blitzer IV units really turned the war around, cut off the tip of the enemy spear, killed dozens of tanks GI couldn't easily replace and stablized my front. Finally my warplan was working! At least until... - Strategic weapons Terribly implemented, in my opinion, but also loving terrifying. Once rocket artillery showed up I knew the name of the game was keeping GI away from BB at all costs. Just in case though, I started a backup railhead and truck stop a ways back from BB. Things got truly terrifying when missiles hit the field. Blue Baths got shelled to absolute gently caress, but with all the redundancy I had achieved from throwing everything at logistics for a couple dozen turns by this point, my actual supply managed to hold, mostly. In fact, my biggest logistics issue is that it turns out equipping your whole army with lasers takes gently caress tons of energy, and my energy production was not ready for this. The crisis I was solving at this point was a severe lack of solar panels. Still, more regret Blue Baths wasn't situated further West. - Warplan v4 Making frontal attacks along the road to drive off the missiles was proving more and more fruitless, as GI hardened the front with tanks, tank destroyers, APCs, RPGs and plenty of laser infantry and MGs. I could maybe take a hex at a time after sufficient artillery bombardment, but it was slow going and a very bloody affair. Meanwhile, I was still bleeding troops in the forest and hardly even giving GI a bloody nose in return. I'd learned a valuable lesson through, partly from this forest fighting, and partly through the brilliant actions by 2nd MG in the defense and counteroffensive around Blue Baths: capable and veteran commanders and veteran troops punch *way* the gently caress above their weight. Case in point, even reinforcing the forest troops with more assault guns, once so effective at turning this battle around, doesn't do anything now. This means, much as I'd like to crush GI's troops in the forest and his armour on the road, if I throw more troops in their way and try to push them directly, I might succeed, but I'd also be throwing a ton of bodies into a grinder. And that's something I can't afford. My current crisis is that worker happiness is starting to tank because my casualty numbers are consisently higher than my population will tolerate. Eventually this is going to affect my industrial and logistical output and possible even gently caress up my troop morale and cause rebellions. This issue can easily cost me the war. I need a way to win that avoids dealing with GI's best troops head on. Meanwhile, I start heavily subsidizing cities and building quality of life improvements in them to keep people happy for just that little bit longer. Fortunately, there's a big planet out there, and I appear able to outproduce GI. So my next plan is to keep widening the flanks until he can't keep up and I threaten his supply lines. At that point he's got to retreat his veteran troops pointed at Blue Baths to have them deal with the threat, or see them all cut off and destroyed. This could really redraw the entire frontlines. 6th and 2nd brigades have already considerably widened the front to the South at this point, and once the center is stabilized enough with the arrival of a new brigade, I full commit 2nd and some veteran light tank brigades to help with this southern push. GI offers primarily fresh green formations for the opposition, and eventually this line crumbles. Meanwhile, in the North, I've been the one to wrap around West of the lakes and threaten a big flank. GI appears to underestimate me here, as he never pulls back his veteran infantry or artillery. He gets scarily close to Blue Baths, but can only offer green infantry, obsolete AT guns and a single unit of tanks to deal with 2 brigades, one of which mechanized, with assault gun, artillery and tank destroyer support. Especially the mechanized units are virtually unopposed in their threats to Lodmont, Rostock and even Sparenhausen. - Peace, for now I honestly had expected GI to pull back his veteran formations, attempt to shorten his front and not let me flank around, especially in the North quite so much. Instead, he tried another pincer offensive at Blue Baths. My tank destroyers manage to stop his armoured assets on the road after only a few hexes, though his forest troops manage to push mine all the way to the very edge of the forest. Behind them lies only plains and then the ruins around Blue Baths itself. I was already preparing to make the fall back to this final position and reinforce the poo poo out of it, as my supply line would be threatened in so many points by doing this, when I manage to make the final break through cutting GI's supply line both in the North, and crucially his rail line in the South. At this point, GI inquires about a truce. Now, had I rejected and kept going, there's a real good chance I pocket most of his army and utterly crush him. However: 1. His forest troops are still absolutely murdering my resistance, meaning I will have to make that final fallback, and even a single hex of weakness can result in my 4 most southern brigades getting cut off from supply, at which point all bets are off. 2. My worker happiness is still tanking, and I don't know how many turns I have left before serious problems start appearing. 3. That AI major on my West has been hostile and extorting me all throughout this drat war and more and more formations are moving on my border. I've been afraid of this other shoe to drop for the last 20 loving turns, but I also couldn't do anything about it, so I decided to just completely ignore it. For the first time, I can choose not to ignore this threat. 4. I've never played late game Shadow Empire, and I really want to, so gently caress it, let's have a peace. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Nov 26, 2020 |
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Nov 26, 2020 21:35
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Been enjoying these LPs and since I’m a sucker for 4X games with logistics I picked up a copy. Is there a Shadow Empire discord or is it all discussed in mapgoons?
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Nov 27, 2020 18:53
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Rhjamiz posted:Been enjoying these LPs and since I’m a sucker for 4X games with logistics I picked up a copy. Is there a Shadow Empire discord or is it all discussed in mapgoons? Mp discord is here. https://discord.gg/ZV86hvqS
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Nov 27, 2020 19:24
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AtomikKrab posted:Mp discord is here. Thanks!
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Nov 27, 2020 19:30
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- Peace terms Having decided I wanted peace, I also wanted to impose terms to still make it likely I would win the inevitable continuation war. It was obvious that GI would swallow up Munashe easily, and it was also obvious I was going to grab the AI major Rochefort Pax. In my mind, the other AI major is very much up the air. It's location favors GI grabbing it, but just maybe I can carve through the first AI quickly to grab the second, especially if GI doesn't attack both the AI and Munashe at the same time. Whoever grabs it should end up with a slight population lead. I also don't want to propose terms that are too devastating, so as not to risk GI rejecting them. The first term is obvious, Lodmont and Rostock were rightfully mine and the whole reason for this clusterfuck of a war in the first place. Their remaining metal supplies should also cover me until demetalization plants fully take over. The most valuable concession to further gain is more land and population, so I want at least another zone. I briefly consider pushing for both Sparenhausen and Calar, but that'd tip the balance of power so far in my favor in the short term that I don't believe GI would go for it. Sparenhausen has significantly more population, but Calar is strategically much more important. I end up giving him the choice, but fully expect him to give me Sparenhausen. This is fine by me, as it has more metal. GI still looks like he needs to build up a lot of industry, so denying him that even if I don't need it is valuable. I deliberately set the exact borders primarily based on metal locations in the north, and in the south clearing the entire desert with it's sand dunes is my top priority. That way I can actually launch a mechanized offensive there without being slowed down hard, giving GI an extra turn or two to brace for impact. Strategic weapons appear to have no defense, though at this point I share GI's belief that shield generators would defend against them, but have no clue just how effectively. GI starting to wipe out my logistics in the newly renamed Hero City Blue Baths was scary as hell, and he's still ahead of me in tech and model development and field testing here. I decide to go for a full ban on strategic weapons, both because they just don't seem very fun, but also because it lets me focus all my research on beam guns, walkers and battledress to hopefully catch up. Great OHQ leaders with experience make a huge difference in combat results, as my 2nd MG leader has aptly demonstrated. Based on the OHQ combat modifiers I have seen in the last turn or two, I pick two of his leaders who appear to be very competent, and tell GI to retire them. Hopefully this will make a difference in the next war. The last point is not enforcable, GI could remove these guys to the reserve pool and then reinstate them once we're at war again, but I'm willing to take that chance. It still stops these monsters from gaining further experience for now. GI turns out to be very honorable and actually gets rid of these leaders. I expected GI to try to gently caress me within the confines of these terms, so I'm not shocked to see him destroy as much infrastructure as possible on the way out. I'm also not shocked he renamed the cities (how rude) and starts pulling out population. I'm a little shocked just how much population he manages to pull out in just a few short turns. Had I known this, I would've definitely prohibited mass population transfers and set a minimum amount of population I was expecting to receive with Calar as collateral. Population at this point is already the bottleneck in my economy, so getting a lot less than I expected hurts. - Redeployment, Logistics & fighting the AI As soon as I start to redeploy me troops to the border with Sparenhausen, I notice three problems: 1. I have no real logistics infrastructure facing that front, which is going to make starting an offensive difficult 2. The AI has insane amounts of dudes under arms, and they appear to have good technology and models, this war might become a slog, while GI will run over Munashe and could then force me into a two front war 3. Pulling troops off the line while GI is still retreating leaves me open to him making an about-face, plus what do I do if he leaves a heavily militarized border? I'm going to need as much of my army as possible to deal with this AI So I quickly hammer out another agreement with GI to leave a maximum of 1 OHQ per zone on our borders, in practice this works out to 3 OHQs each. At the end of the war I think I had like, 9 OHQs under arms, so this frees up plenty of capacity to start fighting the AI. As redeployment takes a while due to limited logistics, I use the combat experience I just gained to hammer out a whole bunch of a new models. I plan on fasing out my Blitzer light tanks, good as they are, and upgrading to using medium tanks as my mainstay. The war with the AI should get them enough field testing to be competitive with GI's medium tanks, which are so far the backbone of his offensive capability. I've already started testing tank destroyers, and hope to get them more field experience. Both tank destroyers and assault guns really seem to serve a good niche. Unfortunately, as my medium tank designs sucked so far, I've been using my assault gun designs, which had good rolls, to act as medium tanks with lasers instead. Assault guns get a bonus to soft attack and a malus to hard attack however, which really doesn't make them great platforms for laser guns or high velocity guns. The basic howitzer guns work really loving well however. So I commit to redesigning my assault guns back into an anti-infantry role, to see if they have a place on the battlefield even in the lategame. I also develop mobile shields and light walkers before the war kicks off, and hope to get in field testing. None of those plans end up being carried out, as the logistics bottleneck simply doesn't allow me to deploy my new models to the front as I had wanted. As GI starts invading Munashe, I decide I simply can't wait longer, and end up fighting another war with the army I have, rather than the one I wish I had. I did manage to upgrade 2nd MG to 2nd Mech. MG however, so my APCs are about to get in some proper field testing. On paper the AI is very scary. In practice, it turns into a hot knife through butter situation from the word go. With very few exceptions, the AI's troops just can not stand up to mine, and keep getting smashed and surrounded over and over again. I don't actually know what is the main cause of this, as the AI certainly has good models in good numbers. Though I also don't really spend a lot of time thinking about it. Instead, I'm working hard on getting logistics up, as it turns out the AI doesn't need logistics assets, and so my assault stalls at least twice as I simply outrun my supply lines and the AI's captured cities generate basically no logistics to help me catch up. I'm also working on hard on revamping my economy. I institute a 3rd SHQ (my 2nd was destroyed in the initial invasion of GI) to keep everything running, especially as Mining Robotization kicks in and I am sudddenly just swamped with metal (in 3rd SHQ, 1st SHQ still has a shortage as my logistics pipeline just can't keep up). I nationalize and shut down a lot of the Farm Domes that take 10s of thousands of civilian population to keep running. Food instead will come from a few dedicated Hydrophonic facilities, which, with Robotization and Mass Food Pool techs, can output insane amounts of food for rather low numbers of worker input. Which is great, because I'm also building more Biofuel plants to generate oil. A unit of 50 tank destroyers can use in excess of 1500 oil per turn. And I don't even know yet how much my heavy walkers are going to need. I'm going to need a lot of oil, and it's all going to be generated from food. The main reason is that this appears to be the method which costs the least population. I'm also trying to set up high tech industry and higher level heavy industry as fast as I can, while not neglecting regular industry and demetalization plant build-up. None of this goes as smoothly as I'd like, as metal shortages in 1st SHQ (while 3rd SHQ is overflowing with literally tens of thousands of metal) and even food shortages (in production, in practice always avoided by buying from traders) slow me down. - New battlelines I beat the AI, ofcourse, but GI gets to the 2nd AI long before I do, and thus takes a population lead. His industry also gets a massive boost from Munashe's cities. On the other hand, Sparenhausen's cities, especially their capital, are filled with very useful industry, most notably a Heavy IV and Hi-Tech II plant. However, logistics and worker happiness issues mean it takes a long time before these become fully operational. Meanwhile, GI has managed to get in field testing on what seem to obviously be the weapons of the future: walkers and mobile shields. While I have not. And he still has a tech lead, fielding battledress and heavy battledress infantry before I do. I identify a hex across the sea from his capital as within the Sparenhausen AI's borders and within 7 hexes from his capital. That means that if I develop sufficiently good missile launchers, I could take out his capital with these strategic weapons from this hex, and win the war in a coup de main on his most important logistics and industrial hub before it even really kicks off. Furthermore, it's not clear if this threat has even been identified by GI, and I know he has good relations with the Sparenhausen AI, which means attacking them to secure this hex is very difficult for him. I make a mad dash for this hex, but GI declares war on Sparenhausen and beats me to it. He must have identified the threat. I feel like I am behind at this point, and am not very happy with myself for letting what was probably a won game potentially slip away. At this point I think I see three areas of particular strategic importance: 1. The missile hex, I decide to commit my elite 2nd Mz to securing this hex. They will be supported by 1 Mz and a bunch of attached high veterancy Blitzer light tanks and artillery assets. They are operating all the way at the end of a tenuous logistics pipeline, as Rochefort Pax' cities still aren't producing nearly the logistics points I'd like them to. On the other side of the lake 6th Inf will push through a swamp with more Blitzer light tank support. I expect these 3 OHQs to link up and run the show here. GI has committed a lot of troops in this area, including walker, mobile shield and tank destroyer assets. I will attempt for the hex, but I expect to be pushed back and eventually be playing a defensive campaign in the swamps here. There's nothing of value to me other than this one hex, so I can fall back a lot, eventually taking up positions on serious mountains. 2. The city of Tirania, which both contains GI's 2nd SHQ and is his only logistics connectin to Munashe's old capital and some other small cities and mining operations. The border is also relatively close, and absolutely must be pushed as the border is also super close to Rochfort, the old AI capital, a city which has become one of my main industrial hubs. I even considered deploying another SHQ there, but then I'd effectively have no more troops commanded by my veteran 1st SHQ with its cap V leader, so I decide against it. The border itself runs along open terrain and mountains, followd by some swampland and then a heavy forest. I have walkers in place to take the mountains, and my tanks will take the open terrain quickly. GI is choosing to defend the forest. He appears to lack armoured assets though, so if I can do in this forest what he did to me north of Blue Baths, I should slowly be able to choke out a vital logistics hub and open the way to taking Munashe's old capital. 1st Arm, 3rd Inf and 4th Inf are tasked with making this happen. 3. The logistics towards Barien runs through Threevale. Furthermore, the logistics from Avigniens to Threevale runs parallel to the border. There's plenty of mountains in the area, but the stretch of land south of Threevale is all flat terrain, and broad enough to jam an armoured OHQ into. If they can push here with some Mech Infantry support, I can cut off a lot of logistics quickly, and the area seems relatively lightly defended when I start making this plan. I initially want to redeploy the veteran 1st Arm OHQ to this front to make this happen, but my logistics capacity forces me to choose between doing this and either delaying my attack even further, or deploying less new troops. I decide to raise 2nd Arm instead, using a new formation which combines a healthy amount of my freshly designed medium tanks (which don't completely suck rear end, but definitely require field testing to become good) with some infantry. 6th Mz will support 2nd Arm. Unfortunately by the time I can actually launch my assault, GI has raised considerably more defense in this area, including armoured and walker assets, and has retooled his logistics network to eliminate his weakness. I decide to proceed with the original plan anyway, as it still puts my tanks on the best ground for them. Other than that, I also decide to: 4. Launch a second offensive on my eastern front, towards the forest northwest of Salina and southwest of Calar. Mostly because GI has troops here which could otherwise threaten me, and if I end up doing well here and take Salina this would still open up a lot of strategic options. I don't think any of that would bear fruit, but it would likely force GI to commit more troops to defend against all my threats than I would have to field to make those threats. 7th Mz and 12th Inf are tasked with this offensive. They also get a massive amount of artillery support. 5. Make probing attacks towards Calar (5th Mz), Barien (4th Inf and 10th Inf), try to take the metal mine in the mountains south of Threevale (9th inf). The main strategy here is to threaten as broad a front as possible to force GI to commit real troops, not just token forces, everywhere, and hopefully either overtax his capacity to field troops or cause him to make an error of judgement and deploy too little somewhere, which I can then take advantage of. It also means I am not defending anywhere, which seems good. 6. Counter GI's surprise push over the mountains towards Centrumcrest (courtesy of some neutral spiders or whatever) through a combination of a serious blocking force in the desert (3rd Arm, 9th Mz and the hastily scrambled 11th Inf) and a counterpush using my first deployed heavy walkers plus a large quantity of artillery towards Ellis. Like Tirania, Ellis is relatively close to the border, has suddenly become very important logistically, and is now also surprisingly lightly defended. I would have deployed 2 OHQs here if I could, but for now, 7th Inf stands alone on this front. On the other hand, GI sticks his troops as deep into the pocket towards Centrumcrest as he can, committing armoured assets into a desert with sand dunes, which is horrible terrain for them. Meanwhile the first hexes just accross the mountain range are flat, rocky terrain, prime tank country. I redeploy my defense to feature 11th Inf blocking the main advance in the desert, while 3rd Arm and 9th Mz use the more favorable rocky terrain to counterpush. 7. Play purely defensively in the southern part of the western front. My logistics are strained here, there is hardly anything of value, and I just can't commit the troops I need here to launch an offensive. 2nd HInf and 5th Mz will defend the forest and the plains respectively. Once GI pushes me back close to my supply lines I will reinforce here and draw an actual line, probably in the mountains far to the east. 8. Deploy missiles in multiple places at once to create a lot of threats GI has to respond to. I expect his shield generators to counter my missiles, but I also intend to force him to deploy shield generators in signficantly more places than I have deployed missiles, thus coming out ahead economically. Furthermore I'll get in field testing, allowing me to upgrade my models from 6 range to the crucial 7 range I need, in case I can capture that crucial hex and threaten his capital. Phase 2 of this plan is to concentrate all my missile assets together and try to overpower the shields in a single location through sheer numbers, preferably in GI's capital. 9. Attack as soon as my logistics permit, even though I have yet to field Heavy Walkers, and even Light Walkers really, in good numbers. - Results and lessons from the 2nd war Let's go through my plans in order and see what actually happened and what I learned from it: 1. Veteran troops with a veteran, highly capable commander just cut through green troops with green commanders, even if they are outnumbered and outgunned. I'm sure there's a tipping point somewhere where the numbers and the better equipment trumps the veterancy, but GI did not manage to achieve that point, and my troops wildly overperform my expectations on this front. 2. Dedicated assault guns with howitzer's definitely have a place in the late game, as they, combined with some artillery, manage to dislodge entrenched heavy battledress infantry from prepared positions in heavy forests. Good tank destroyers are also amazing. I'm sure heavy walkers are better, but these boys are easier to field (no Hi-Tech cost) and can be put into an OHQ. I think this is the only front where I can push along the length of the entire front constantly. 3. Deploying green troops with green commanders and untested models into a front where they are outnumbered and the enemy has armoured reserves is really dumb. I take a huge bloody nose here in the first two turns of the war, and spend the next couple of turns dumping almost my entire production into reinforcing this area to turn this around. I'm scared that GI manages to go on a real offensive here and take Rostock, cutting off my troops in the north and threatening a huge flanking manuever on everything in the south. At that point I'd have to fall back and take up the same defensive lines around Hero City Blue Baths everyone became familiar with in the first war. I wouldn't lose any real industrial output and I was doing well on the western fronts, so this wouldn't be a total disaster, but it still threatened to turn into a massive strategic failure on my part. Lots of troops, heavy walkers and continued missile bombardments of Threevale eventually manage to staunch the bleeding. What I had seen during planning as a relatively easy objective to grab early into the war ended up becoming a massive slog which took all the way until the end of the war to win. 4. Even light walkers with artillery support do very well in forests against just infantry. Artillery is absolutely key to disloding infantry from forests, which is once again confirmed here. 5. Offense really is the best defense. Slowly ramping up the pressure by deploying a unit of walkers or artillery here or there to support an attack and basically demand a response from GI pays off, for example towards Barien, where my infantry with just a bit of walker and artillery support eventually manages to break GIs defense. Similarly, 5th Mz ties up way more of GI's troops than they themselves are fielding, just by threatening attacks in multiple directions, and then on top of that manage to break and take Calar once they get heavy walker support. 6. I expected GI to commit his newly raised infantry OHQ to hold the mountains covering his supply line. He didn't, which allowed me to take the mountain hexes, and then a turn later put a road over them and launch a huge offensive across, constantly threatening his supply. Meanwhile both Tirania and Ellis are getting hosed by missiles, further killing GI's supply here. The heavy troop commitment into the pocket across the mountains with little support is an uncharacteristic mistake by GI and while I agree that being able to build roads and use them the same turn is dumb, my maneuver here could have been prevented by not letting me take those mountain hexes without a fight in the first place. 7. GI was also playing purely defensively, and furthermore making no attempts to defend Sachsen. A whole bunch of population just sitting there to be taken. I can't resist, so I slowly edge 5th Mz closer to see if GI springs into offensive action. He never does, and 5th Mz ends up taking Sachsen and Belfort, as 2nd Mz and 4th Mz force a total rout of GI's troops in the area to avoid being cut off. 8. Strategic weapons have no counter, shields do nothing, and this is easily one of the least fun parts of the game. Welp. My missiles end up devastating a lot of (logistic) assets. It's still unclear to me just how big their role in my victory was, but I'm sure they played a part. I never needed a better model of missiles, as 2nd Mz managed to capture hexes even within 6 range of GI's capital. Once I started shelling that it was curtains. 9. I'm happy I didn't wait longer. That said, I had underestimated just how good heavy walkers are. Had I known I would have invested more heavily into Hi-Tech industry. Fortunately, the Sparenhausen AI left me a Hi-Tech II, which helped a lot in making sure I was fielding significantly more of these bad boys than GI was. Other lessons: 10. Traders run out of money eventually as your lategame economy produces way more than it needs of certain things and dumps it on the market. This means you can actually run out of money. If you then don't notice this, because it still looks like you have 1500 credits (but actually you need like 3000 credits to pay all the salaries) this means your troops don't get paid and they take huge morale hits. This happend to me like, 4 turns into this war. I ended up needing to spend all my fate points to generate cash to stop the bleeding, and then using emergency taxes cards to trade population happiness for lots of cash. This solved the issue, but it still took until nearly the end of the war for morale to recover. Had the war been going more evenly, this could have cost me very, very dearly. 11. Mobile shields are also not really that great. Just a slog to use and I never felt like they made a difference. Given how far along the tech tree they are, this is rather disappointing. 12. You just never have enough loving solar panels do you? A lategame economy uses SO MUCH ENERGY every turn. A lategame army of significant size uses SO MUCH ENERGY every turn. I ended up actually having shortages of rare metals due to building so many solar panels. First time that happened in multiple games. Other ways of generating energy just take up way more population per energy unit generated, so they weren't a real option for me because... 13. ... lategame your economy caps on population. Every new OHQ you field means your industrial output goes down. This means difficult decisions. 14. Electric engines suck. They produce less power than diesel engines so using them on heavy walkers or big tanks would slow them down a lot. Furthermore, now your engines use the same resource as your industry and ammunition, so if you run out of energy you both can't move and can't shoot. The few light tanks I deployed with electric engines constantly ran low on action points due to this. With Biofuel as cheap in population to make as it is (and food plentiful lategame), I just don't see why you'd switch over to electric engines. 15. Shadow Empire is an amazing game and Generation Internet is a great opponent. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Dec 6, 2020 |
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Dec 6, 2020 15:30
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Electric engines are actually really good for lighter vehicles as long as you have the infrastructure to support them because energy has zero weight so doesn't strain your logistics at all. The dark horse of energy production is actually volcanic plants, if you have volcanoes they can produce stupendous amounts of energy for minimal population. Biofuel to energy is insanely inefficient because of how much pop it takes to make food.
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Dec 6, 2020 16:25
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I have to disagree on the food thing: A hydroponic factory + the two(!) techs that double food production from them is insanely manpower efficient.
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Dec 6, 2020 17:17
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Thanks for that writeup, it was really really cool to see that dual perspective and particularly cool to see that both of you felt like your positions were incredibly tenuous. Always neat. I hope to see more Shadow Empire LPs.
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Dec 6, 2020 19:30
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It's probably my favorite part of these MP games to pull back the curtain after all is said and done to take a look at the other side, so I really appreciate all of these posts. Orange Devil posted:6. I expected GI to commit his newly raised infantry OHQ to hold the mountains covering his supply line. He didn't, which allowed me to take the mountain hexes, and then a turn later put a road over them and launch a huge offensive across, constantly threatening his supply. Meanwhile both Tirania and Ellis are getting hosed by missiles, further killing GI's supply here. The heavy troop commitment into the pocket across the mountains with little support is an uncharacteristic mistake by GI and while I agree that being able to build roads and use them the same turn is dumb, my maneuver here could have been prevented by not letting me take those mountain hexes without a fight in the first place. I'm not sure if you noticed, but that's exactly what I was doing. I still have no idea how you managed to beat them there. I think it's because you moved a militia unit into the mountain, built a road, and then moved the mechanized troops? Regardless I was counting on that infantry being able to dig into the mountains and when that didn't happen the entire flank was screwed. That entire adventure was clearly a mistake and I should have kept those armoured and mech brigades in reserve until your offensive forces were committed like I did at Threevale. Orange Devil posted:8. Strategic weapons have no counter, shields do nothing, and this is easily one of the least fun parts of the game. Welp. My missiles end up devastating a lot of (logistic) assets. It's still unclear to me just how big their role in my victory was, but I'm sure they played a part. I never needed a better model of missiles, as 2nd Mz managed to capture hexes even within 6 range of GI's capital. Once I started shelling that it was curtains. They never really impacted the logistics side of things except in the south, which I already had decided to abandon since my line was too long for what it was accomplishing. What it did do was absolutely seal my fate by never being able to make up the economic disparity in high techs. If I had managed to match you beam gun for beam gun it could have dragged things out. Saros posted:Electric engines are actually really good for lighter vehicles as long as you have the infrastructure to support them because energy has zero weight so doesn't strain your logistics at all. I feel pretty neutral on electric engines, but oil actually has no weight either. The only things your units will pull with weight are food and ammo, as applicable. I'm pretty sure I have a screenshot from this very LP of a tank destroyer battalion at the fringes of my logistics network pulling ~1500 fuel but only using ~90 logistical points because of "assumed pipes." Another thing I don't think either Orange or myself mentioned in our writeups was how the playercount played into this game. It started with 3 players because that's just how many we had when we set it up, which is a far cry from Saros' server now being the official unofficial Shadow Empire Discord. Munashe ended up going out with barely a whisper, so it really was a 2 player duel for almost the entire time. If we'd had a fourth player they would have started in either Rochefort or Belfort and it would have changed the entire game. Politics is probably one of my biggest weaknesses in these games though, so I don't think I can be to upset about that.
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Dec 6, 2020 20:18
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DTurtle posted:I have to disagree on the food thing: A hydroponic factory + the two(!) techs that double food production from them is insanely manpower efficient. Hmm I hadn't actually thought about the booster techs making it work out better. Generation Internet posted:I feel pretty neutral on electric engines, but oil actually has no weight either. The only things your units will pull with weight are food and ammo, as applicable. I'm pretty sure I have a screenshot from this very LP of a tank destroyer battalion at the fringes of my logistics network pulling ~1500 fuel but only using ~90 logistical points because of "assumed pipes."  Well then, that changes things if its correct.
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Dec 6, 2020 20:22
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Saros posted:Electric engines are actually really good for lighter vehicles as long as you have the infrastructure to support them because energy has zero weight so doesn't strain your logistics at all. The dark horse of energy production is actually volcanic plants, if you have volcanoes they can produce stupendous amounts of energy for minimal population. Biofuel to energy is insanely inefficient because of how much pop it takes to make food. Oil also has zero weight, so as long as you produce the food in the same place as the Biofuel plant it's the same thing. Also the problem with electric engines I found in practice is, if you do just an attack with fuel vehicles, they'll use a lot of ammo and good chunk of fuel, but some will be left over. If your logistics take a bad turn, the unit is going to be combat ineffective, but might still be able to haul rear end out of its precarious position. Attack with laser guns and electric engines and you just deplete your energy and also potentially use so much loving energy taken together across the entire war. Suddenly you run out, and your tanks are now both combat ineffective and immobile. This means you're probably losing them completely. At least make sure you have big power banks if you electrify your army. Generation Internet posted:I'm not sure if you noticed, but that's exactly what I was doing. I still have no idea how you managed to beat them there. I think it's because you moved a militia unit into the mountain, built a road, and then moved the mechanized troops? Regardless I was counting on that infantry being able to dig into the mountains and when that didn't happen the entire flank was screwed. That entire adventure was clearly a mistake and I should have kept those armoured and mech brigades in reserve until your offensive forces were committed like I did at Threevale. I didn't actually notice that, I recall thinking you wanted to cram even more dudes across the mountains. I don't recall enough about the precise timing here, though I do feel happy with myself for finding a use for those huge militia units that began spawning (with outdated but somewhat half-decent models even). Putting pressure on the other side of those mountains was definitely the right call on your part, and even a light commitment of troops would've forced me to commit more and more heavily armed (and thus more expensive) troops to counter it, because the potential to turn into a disaster for me was definitely there. But yeah, your heavy commitment turned into a fiasco. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Dec 6, 2020 |
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Dec 6, 2020 20:29
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Generation Internet posted:I noticed my tank destroyer's comically large fuel draw while looking over logistics. Thankfully somehow their organic logistics tap directly into oil pipelines so it's not an actual draw on the system Found the actual picture I was thinking of. I still find it weird given how much of DC: Barbarossa is a fuel trucking/training simulator.
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Dec 7, 2020 03:47
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Generation Internet posted:Found the actual picture I was thinking of. I still find it weird given how much of DC: Barbarossa is a fuel trucking/training simulator. Well, real Barbarossa was basically an exercise in proving the logisticians right.
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Dec 7, 2020 08:29
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What a great game guys. 
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Dec 14, 2020 03:54
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