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Sucrose posted:edit: How did we even resist the ideological influence of the Nazis? I mean, it's not like the United States was a shining beacon of equality at the time. Not that I'm claiming your average Joe American would have been ok with the Holocaust or anything, but that wasn't revealed until much later. When the Nazis were first gaining power in Germany, what was it that made the American government and public go "Yo, gently caress that." (I'm aware there were some Nazi-sympathetic factions in the US, but they lost the battle for control, badly) It was not nearly as lopsided a victory as you think. There were a whole lot more people interested in the nazi message than would ever admit it after the war, when they generally just brushed it off as being anti-commie. I think it's a pretty conventional take to give the nod to two big things going for us, that were more luck and circumstance than some amazing american national character. First was FDR being enormously popular and solidly on the side of liberal democracy. Followed by the good fortune that most of the credible media went totally sour on the nazis after hitler invaded other countries. When Lindbergh gave his first "if you think about it, it's really the jews who are to blame" speech he was castigated by every paper of record, and that's why it looks like the american people didn't like what he had to say. In fact quite a lot of people did like what he had to say. But there was no fox news(paper) to put a bevy of dittoheads on display saying "he's right you know". tl;dr I can imagine two things that easily could have given the US a different, and far darker, history. 1. an early 1930s mitch mcconnell who was able to stop the new deal, such that the depression dragged on longer 2. a late 1930s rupert murdoch who could have given american nazis like lindbergh a more prominent and credible voice edit: also none of that is useful instruction for what we should do today, since "resurrect FDR" and "fire fox news into the sun" are both great ideas but currently impractical. Klyith fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 02:43
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TheTrend posted:you should maybe look up the end of Diocletian's life. Sure the system fell apart around him as he retired and people pestered him to return to the throne and he probably killed himself. At least got a few years of cabbages. Sucrose posted:edit: How did we even resist the ideological influence of the Nazis? I mean, it's not like the United States was a shining beacon of equality at the time. Not that I'm claiming your average Joe American would have been ok with the Holocaust or anything, but that wasn't revealed until much later. When the Nazis were first gaining power in Germany, what was it that made the American government and public go "Yo, gently caress that." (I'm aware there were some Nazi-sympathetic factions in the US, but they lost the battle for control, badly) It's not as if Nazi Germany actually put alot of effort into practicing soft power and actively trying to export its ideology in any case. They were almost solely devoted to the idea of military conquqest and the propaganda they produced was more or less exclusively intended for domestic consumption where they controlled the branches of government and the flow of information. Like there were many far right extremist movements in Europe and much of the rest of the world in 20s and 30s, and after the success of the fascist movements in Italy and Germany (though the degree to which you can actually talk about a unified fascism in a way that makes it coherent is very much up for debate) and in Central and Eastern Europe, inspired and gave impetus and legitimacy to similar movements (who would often model themselves on the Italians and Germans) in other countries, though these movements by and large were still homegrown, when Germany or Italy attempted to direct, fund or aid such movements it was often incompetently and clumsily handled and most of all underfunded (the exception comes when the aid was directly military in nature). It's worth noting that Nazi Germany did not possess an impressive intelligence apparatus, lack of funding, training and recruitment of agents is the big thing here. They were almost incapable of operating abroad, especially when the war started and even domestically for all their brutality the Gestapo and other domestic security agencies did not have an intelligence structure even remotely comparable to that of the Soviet Union or Britain, both of which employed agents at the top of German industry, politics and military. What these security services were somewhat good at, repression, was driven and aided almost solely by civilian denunciation and the agencies did not have the manpower or resources and equipment to do this actively except by mass indiscriminate arrests on the basis of factors such as ethnic background or place of residence. The United States ending up fighting against Nazi Germany more or less comes down to, I think, the US's relationsip with Britain developed before and during WW1 and how alot of influential people in the United States continued to see Britain as America's close ally and most important trading partner. As for the UK fighting Germany, that comes down, more than anything else to basically just a realpolitik commitment to upholding the balance of power in Europe that British imperialists had emrbaced for hundreds of years, where it was thought that any one power gaining hegemonic power would present a serious, possibly insurmountable threat to British economic and strategic interests. Alot of people in Britian did have a certain disdain for the Nazis's open brutality and disregard for the rules of "civilized society" both domestically and in foreign policy, but they pretty much viewed the Soviet Union and its authoritarianism in a similar manner (and in terms of ideological influence and the abiltiy to recruit sympathetic agents abroad, people were already aware then that the Soviet Union was far more formidable than Germany). The difference, as they would have seen it, was that German military buildup and ridiculusly transparent ambitions of military conquest and disregard for diplomatic norms meant that they were threatening to disrupt the entire European balance of powers, especially after 1938. Arch-imperialists and anti-bolsheviks like Churchill were among the first to argue in favor of seeking an alliance with Stalin against Hitler, and that was not because their ideological outlook had changed. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 07:04
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Also the house is, like, comically gigantic
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Jan 22, 2021 07:15
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1redflag posted:Also the house is, like, comically gigantic Comically gigantic is my thing 
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Jan 22, 2021 07:16
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Churchill and others were at first optimistic about Hitler being an ally against communist expansion but as the post above states the Nazis didn't actually hide their interests very well. It became obvious pretty quick that a nation controlled by what amounted to massively xenophobic gangsters is not a stable political ally.
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Jan 22, 2021 07:17
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1redflag posted:Also the house is, like, comically gigantic How does it compare to like Tsarskoe Selo? Though that place didn't have an underground ice rink, though I doubt Putin's palace has a room made out of amber or a huge-rear end chess made out of solid pure silver.
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Jan 22, 2021 07:35
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He'll eventually be deposed by a cordless drill and a pair of pliers.
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Jan 22, 2021 07:57
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Putin is bad and everyone should hate him but ofc the sad truth is that part of why he's in power is that stealing merely 9 figures from the Russian people is literally an order of magnitude less corrupt than any credible opposition would do ofc it doesn't hurt that he's deliberately curtailed any possibility of legitimate credible opposition
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Jan 22, 2021 09:08
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Klyith posted:all the propaganda and disinformation they've used to push far-right nationalism in the west? it's effective because they spent years workshopping that poo poo on their own people until they were producing really slick poison on a regular basis. the textbook they're following is by a guy who wrote admiringly about nazi propaganda. the Polish invaded Russia? lol
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Jan 22, 2021 10:02
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eSports Chaebol posted:Putin is bad and everyone should hate him but ofc the sad truth is that part of why he's in power is that stealing merely 9 figures from the Russian people is literally an order of magnitude less corrupt than any credible opposition would do
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Jan 22, 2021 11:48
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i am the black sea
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Jan 22, 2021 12:21
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Klyith posted:all the propaganda and disinformation they've used to push far-right nationalism in the west? it's effective because they spent years workshopping that poo poo on their own people until they were producing really slick poison on a regular basis. the textbook they're following is by a guy who wrote admiringly about nazi propaganda. Who put out that video? The poster who said this is close to American right wing propaganda is pretty dead on. Chuds would love this stuff. quote:it's a win/win for putin because even when it doesn't result in a friendly wanna-be autocrat like trump getting elected, the resulting societal disruption and unhappiness is fodder he can feed back to his own people: "see, they're constantly at each other's throats in america. riots and burning buildings! you don't want to be like america or accept the things america says are good, or you'll have that chaos here." This is what they've been doing for quite some time. Russian twitter and facebook bots have been doing quite a number on us. They literally got Trump elected by disinformation and got almost half of our country working against democracy. Even if they don't get cozy with our leaders, they are destroying us from the inside. We can't fight them if we're fighting ourselves. And while we're distracted with our own loving Nazi's they can get away with taking Crimea and Ukraine. Russia is still our #1 enemy and have been for years. Not China, not Iran, but Russia. The end of the Cold War was just a setback for them. Pennywise the Frown fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 13:23
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Budzilla posted:Navalny literally pointed that fallacy in the video. "Oh sure Putin is corrupt but he has been doing it for so long and someone worse will get in so just let it be!" Structural changes need to be made. But that won't happen. Navalny though is a Russian who actually wants better for his country instead of an outsider who is just anti-Russia (though it's really funny when western liberals are shocked that opponents of Russian authoritarian leaders like Solzhenitsyn and Navalny are....Russian nationalists and not Russia-haters?!) Maybe I sound crazy--maybe I am crazy--but I can't help think of how strange it is that Americans are freaking out about Trump's mob storming the Capitol when as we all know, a real supporter of Democracy the West can get behind would have had tanks fire on it and sent in the Army to mow down anyone who stood between the mob and the so-called "Congress" allegedly "elected" under the rules laid out in the "Constitution"
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Jan 23, 2021 05:13
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eSports Chaebol posted:as we all know  E. Also lol at the “they’re Russian nationalists, what are you upset about?!” hot take. If you need a clue, it’s the nationalism/xenophobia people don’t like, not the Russia part; CHUDs live in all nations Brother Tadger fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 06:57
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Sucrose posted:Lol at making like 5 posts of this poo poo when you know drat well that Russia is one of the 3-4 countries the US is literally incapable of invading, ever, and is currently one of the few other countries in the world capable of subjecting smaller/weaker countries to its own brand of imperialism. mr putin please sir can i have $2000
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Jan 23, 2021 07:25
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1redflag posted:
I’m talking about the 1993 coup
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Jan 23, 2021 19:41
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Pennywise the Frown posted:Who put out that video? The poster who said this is close to American right wing propaganda is pretty dead on. Chuds would love this stuff. We really took our foot off the pedal when Yeltsin got in and haven't respected them as our equals since. We were too busy paying back the Saudi's for tanking the Russian economy and fighting our forever wars to take Putin seriously, and four years of Trump has just let him run up the score on us.
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Jan 23, 2021 20:11
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Mozi posted:lol that it got all moldy and had to be completely redone The chekists and bolsheviks have been doing terrible things to brave russians for a long long time now.
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Jan 24, 2021 01:26
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you reckon they got any squatch round them parts that he can go after?
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Jan 24, 2021 02:04
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I wonder what kind of feedback the Navalnyi poisoners got from Putin. Was it constructive like "Good effort but next time you should use more poison" or did they get yelled and/or shot at? Imagine the ribbing these guys get from their fellow assassins at the office. (The water cooler at Russian Murder Institute must be Prank Central)
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Jan 24, 2021 10:03
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Sucrose posted:edit: How did we even resist the ideological influence of the Nazis? I mean, it's not like the United States was a shining beacon of equality at the time. Not that I'm claiming your average Joe American would have been ok with the Holocaust or anything, but that wasn't revealed until much later. When the Nazis were first gaining power in Germany, what was it that made the American government and public go "Yo, gently caress that." (I'm aware there were some Nazi-sympathetic factions in the US, but they lost the battle for control, badly) fascism works by escalation, most germans in the early 30s were still opposed to a war and didnt care much for the conquest of czechoslovakia for instance, or were antisemitic only in an opportunist sort of way, one of the reasons the SA was eliminated in 1933 was because people didnt really care for armed thugs in the street, it took years of escalation and erosion for the holocaust to become thinkable and for the invasion of poland to become acceptable to the army leadership. the same sort of thing couldve easily happened in the united states, it just didn't because of contingent circumstances
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Jan 24, 2021 14:19
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Oh yeah smart rear end? How does gravity work then?
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Jan 24, 2021 15:01
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Alan Smithee posted:the Polish invaded Russia? lol This little Polish guy fought the Russians AND helped the colonies gain their independence from King George: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Ko%C5%9Bciuszko e: there are also a bunch of things named after him in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_things_named_after_Tadeusz_Ko%C5%9Bciuszko Americans would know him by his Anglicized name: Brigadier General Thaddeus Kosciuszko. tango alpha delta fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 25, 2021 08:05
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Alan Smithee posted:the Polish invaded Russia? lol Poland-Lithuania occupied Moscow in 1610-1612 and installed False Dmitri II as tsar for a while. Speaking of palaces when I was in St. Petersburg a local dude I know told me that its an open secret there are occasionally parties for the rich in old palaces, they are basically 19 century balls where they LARP as aristocracy with liveried lackeys, champaigne and whatnot.
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Jan 25, 2021 09:23
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no wonder the russians treat poland like poo poo imagine getting owned by poland
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Jan 25, 2021 10:12
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Julius CSAR posted:I watched the whole thing. Does no one watch it and think "huh, maybe we're the baddies?" I get I'm not the target audience, but the whole thing just reads as something a baddy would make.
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Jan 25, 2021 10:54
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tango alpha delta posted:This little Polish guy fought the Russians AND helped the colonies gain their independence from King George: 
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Jan 25, 2021 13:44
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zaepg posted:The difference, I see. Between us and Russia is Russia accepts corruption. However in America we tend to call corruption as it is and try and prevent it. In America corruption is accepted to such a degree that it is officially legalised and normalised to the point where you don't even recognise it as corruption. Of course this is true of pretty much every country, but America is the world leader in western democracies going to complete poo poo despite having insane amounts of wealth, so the corruption is harder to ignore. Just imagine experiencing any of the political developments or general state of decline over the last several decades and believing America is on top of their corruption situation.
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Jan 25, 2021 15:53
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Moon Atari posted:In America corruption is accepted to such a degree that it is officially legalised and normalised to the point where you don't even recognise it as corruption. Of course this is true of pretty much every country, but America is the world leader in western democracies going to complete poo poo despite having insane amounts of wealth, so the corruption is harder to ignore. Honestly the most shocking thing about American corruption is how cheaply our politicians sell themselves. Look at the amounts tiny amounts corporations donate and pay to lobbyists, and they get to write their own legislation in return. Hell, the Clintons are only worth ~$110 million, and that's the combined payback for 8 years of president Bill and the down payment on 8 years of president Hillary. The amounts are trivial.
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Jan 25, 2021 16:12
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Putin and Elon Musk should combine their money into...something. I don't exactly what, but something nonetheless.
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Jan 25, 2021 18:37
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EorayMel posted:Putin and Elon Musk should combine their money into...something. I don't exactly what, but something nonetheless. I feel like maybe you don't want this, really.
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Jan 25, 2021 19:15
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Oh my god if Elon Musk abducts Putin and locks him in a missile to Mars I'll forgive him most of his douchy behavior, if he sacrifice himself to ensure Putin can't escape the missile I'll throw in an ice-cream machine.
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Jan 25, 2021 19:20
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Big Beef City posted:I feel like maybe you don't want this, really. Actually I do By popular demand posted:Oh my god if Elon Musk abducts Putin and locks him in a missile to Mars I'll forgive him most of his douchy behavior, if he sacrifice himself to ensure Putin can't escape the missile I'll throw in an ice-cream machine.
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Jan 25, 2021 20:41
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By popular demand posted:Churchill and others were at first optimistic about Hitler being an ally against communist expansion but as the post above states the Nazis didn't actually hide their interests very well. We thought the same about Putin as well. "I looked the man in the eye. I found him very straightforward and trustworthy – I was able to get a sense of his soul."
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Jan 25, 2021 23:55
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EorayMel posted:Putin and Elon Musk should combine their money into...something. I don't exactly what, but something nonetheless. Putin's bank account
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Jan 26, 2021 04:07
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