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Are Paladins allowed to lie?
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Apr 6, 2008 02:45
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No, that's why he was completely telling the truth. He just didn't know he was.
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Apr 6, 2008 03:51
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The Werle posted:Are Paladins allowed to lie? They are not; here is the Code of Conduct for a Paladin, verbatim. PHB Page 44 posted:A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. The only way around that which I know of off the top of my head would be to if he had levels in the Gray Guard prestige class, from Complete Scoundrel. It gradually relaxes a Paladin's code when transgressions are committed in the name of the greater good, up to removing it's restrictions entirely when the need is great enough. The trick here is that you don't get that until ten levels into it, and it takes five levels (of, granted, not necessarily pure Paladin) to get in. So unless he's telling the truth, or there is something else at work, O-Chul would have to be around level 15 and an extremely powerful Paladin. The thing is, I think if he was trying to lie, there would still be some sort of punishment for it. Trying to lie and failing is still not really honorable.
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Apr 6, 2008 04:02
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I think most DMs would let a Paladin lie to an evil warlord type if that was his only chance at saving a load of innocents. Kind of like Roy telling off Miko for following her alignment to the letter but completely ignoring it's intent. As he's still a Paladin, I'd say Rich Baker agrees.
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Apr 6, 2008 04:11
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Cabbit posted:They are not; here is the Code of Conduct for a Paladin, verbatim. While doubtful the answer, Unearthed Arcana also has the Paladin variant class, the Paladin of Freedom, which is basically a chaotic good Paladin. team overhead smash is most likely correct though. I wouldn't remove powers for a lie like that, and I don't think either of my two GMs would either.
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Apr 6, 2008 04:17
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He probably is, but I'm still holding out hope that O-Chul is even more awesome than he already is. Plus, Gray Guards are cool.
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Apr 6, 2008 04:27
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NutShellBill posted:Also, he's not Irish. It's O-Chul
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Apr 6, 2008 05:00
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team overhead smash posted:I think most DMs would let a Paladin lie to an evil warlord type if that was his only chance at saving a load of innocents. Kind of like Roy telling off Miko for following her alignment to the letter but completely ignoring it's intent. As he's still a Paladin, I'd say Rich Baker agrees. Yeah, jesus christ, you guys. So fuckin' analytical. He's not lying to a legitimate authority, he's lying to the megalomaniacal, genocidal leader of the worst evil he's ever seen. I think he gets a bye.
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Apr 6, 2008 20:46
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Kahrytes posted:Yeah, jesus christ, you guys. So fuckin' analytical. He's not lying to a legitimate authority, he's lying to the megalomaniacal, genocidal leader of the worst evil he's ever seen. Personally I think it's retarded, and I ignore the rule, but the Rules As Written says that lying, even to a megalomaniac and genocidal leader, is dishonorable and would have him stripped of his powers.
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Apr 6, 2008 21:00
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I just figured that O-Chul was telling the truth, and Redcloak expected him to lie so much that he wrote off whatever O-Chul's answer would be as a lie automatically v v
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Apr 6, 2008 21:02
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Jonked posted:Except the Paladin code specifically bans lying in all cases.
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Apr 6, 2008 22:15
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BlueArmyMan posted:I just figured that O-Chul was telling the truth, and Redcloak expected him to lie so much that he wrote off whatever O-Chul's answer would be as a lie automatically v I just figured that his charisma was so low that despite telling the truth, Red Cloak didn't believe him. I mean, it's an illusionary maze of death, hidden from all magical intrusion, with a Sphinx like Quiz Show chaser. It takes real charisma to sell that even if it is the truth.
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Apr 6, 2008 22:55
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I'm still rooting for the "O-Chul is a 15th level badass and the Twelve Gods trust him enough to let him do what it takes, Jack Bauer style" option. It would explain his buckets of HP!
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Apr 6, 2008 23:39
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Please, in a DnD world that description could just as easily be directions to the tavern with the best jalapeño poppers.
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Apr 6, 2008 23:39
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Jonked posted:Personally I think it's retarded, and I ignore the rule, but the Rules As Written says that lying, even to a megalomaniac and genocidal leader, is dishonorable and would have him stripped of his powers. Yeah. And that's why I think you guys are rules-lawyerin' it up too much. At the best of times, there are a few things in D&D that make no sense. At the worst? It's loving confusing as hell and overcomplicated and retarded. I'm just sayin' that the author probably hand-waved that rule away. A lie to an evil villain isn't even a real lie, in my mind.
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Apr 7, 2008 00:56
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Far as I can see it only says that he loses his powers if he commits an evil act. Doubt breaking the code is considered evil.
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Apr 7, 2008 01:20
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Gassire posted:Please, in a DnD world that description could just as easily be directions to the tavern with the best jalapeño poppers. I'm stealing this idea for a one-shot, light-hearted adventure.
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Apr 7, 2008 01:43
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Affi posted:Far as I can see it only says that he loses his powers if he commits an evil act. Doubt breaking the code is considered evil. You can't see very far; it states explicitly under "Ex-Paladins" that grossly breaking the code of conduct results in a loss of all Paladin Spells and Abilities (but not armor/weapon/shield proficiencies). That said, it looks like O-Chul just isn't lying so much as Redcloak thinks he's just omitting stuff.
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Apr 7, 2008 05:06
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I don't get the whole lampshade thing.
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Apr 7, 2008 05:16
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Dr. Ron Paul posted:I don't get the whole lampshade thing. http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/02/07/comic-book-dictionary-hang-a-lampshade/
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Apr 7, 2008 05:34
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Cabbit posted:You can't see very far; it states explicitly under "Ex-Paladins" that grossly breaking the code of conduct results in a loss of all Paladin Spells and Abilities (but not armor/weapon/shield proficiencies). THAT MOTHERFUCKER Telling a lie to save people and misleading the evil leaders! He's made a gross violation of the paladin code, Saving Lives and Foiling Evil. I am off to my D&D group to tell them a SCATHING diatribe about why precisely O-Chul is the worst paladin ever! This is exactly the kind of thing that is basically left up to the DM in any game. It seems all of you who are saying this lie should make O-Chul lose his powers have lovely DMs. 
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Apr 7, 2008 06:35
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New strip is up, and here for the inevitable inability to access the site. Redcloak gives paladins far too much credit when it comes to not following silly oaths sworn.
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Apr 7, 2008 09:34
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Kahrytes posted:THAT MOTHERFUCKER Or, maybe we think that the code doesn't exist to give the Paladin just a roleplaying crutch, but also as a drawback and counter to his power. The Code of Conduct is a mandate of the Gods, and it's supposed to limit the things you can do. It's supposed to be a disadvantage, which offsets the copious advantages a Paladin gets, in addition to being a cool aspect of the character. If every Tom, Dick, and O-Chul could lie, cheat, steal, poison, and otherwise break the rules in the name of the Greater Good.. Well, they'd be Chaotic Good. That, or Gray Guard. Which is, incidentally, why I like them!
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Apr 7, 2008 20:53
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Cabbit posted:
Pfft, Grey Guard are just lame wanna be Paladins, Avengers are the real C-G version. 
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Apr 7, 2008 23:23
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Cabbit posted:Or, maybe we think that the code doesn't exist to give the Paladin just a roleplaying crutch, but also as a drawback and counter to his power. The Code of Conduct is a mandate of the Gods, and it's supposed to limit the things you can do. Or, y'know, you could have a Paladin work to the meaning of the law, and not to the letter of it. He's not loving Eddie Guerrero, he's not gonna sneak through the evil dude's palace and poison the lich to death, after stealing from every peasant and every king in the area... He's gonna walk right in the front door, kick the rear end of any of the bad guys who attack, then fight the lich in a battle to the death. If you get stopped on the way in by a platoon of the lich's powerful henchmen, you don't just say "I'ma kill your boss. Peace.", you say "Oh, just going to give fealty to your lord." It's situational, but then again, I feel that everything being black and white, good or evil is just plain retarded, and lovely roleplaying and lovely DMing. Is looting the burial chamber of the evil lord stealing or not? He's dead, and doesn't need it anymore, but you're taking his sword of plus whatever for your own for your own benefit, and not leaving payment. Is using smite evil an act of cruelty? It causes unimaginable pain to the monster you're using it on. Is chopping up a bad guy with your sword an evil act? You're causing undue pain to a creature. You should obviously use a padded quarterstaff as all paladin weapons. It seems that Burlew agrees with me, because as far as O-Chul knows, he just lied. Hey, he's still a Paladin. Lying to an evil creature while you're under torture is no more evil than any of the acts I just wrote above.
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Apr 8, 2008 01:52
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O-Chul needs to wait until Redcloak gets close enough and then renounce his oath. The resulting dramatic lightning bolt will stun Redcloak and burn away the ropes. O-Chul then pushes Redcloak off the tower before the goblin can recover.
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Apr 8, 2008 02:49
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Kahrytes posted:It's situational, but then again, I feel that everything being black and white, good or evil is just plain retarded, and lovely roleplaying and lovely DMing. Is looting the burial chamber of the evil lord stealing or not? He's dead, and doesn't need it anymore, but you're taking his sword of plus whatever for your own for your own benefit, and not leaving payment. Is using smite evil an act of cruelty? It causes unimaginable pain to the monster you're using it on. Is chopping up a bad guy with your sword an evil act? You're causing undue pain to a creature. You should obviously use a padded quarterstaff as all paladin weapons. This is a bit of a tangent, but when I run games where a specific view of Good and Evil are part of the setting, I sometimes play it as a Battle Of The Elements. Paladins are unable to lie, not because it's against their beliefs, but because they are Elemental Creatures of Good and thus are literally incapable of it. A paladin lying would be about the same as an ice elemental using a fireball - it just doesn't work. However, if you do it this way, you need to weave it into the very basics of the setting - it's no longer "a fantasy world with good and evil", it's "a universe where Good and Evil are tangible, real, unbending elemental forces", which is a different beast altogether. It can be an absolute riot watching people figure out how to accomplish things without violating the core of their very being. 
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Apr 8, 2008 03:37
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Kahrytes posted:Or, y'know, you could have a Paladin work to the meaning of the law, and not to the letter of it. He's not loving Eddie Guerrero, he's not gonna sneak through the evil dude's palace and poison the lich to death, after stealing from every peasant and every king in the area... He's gonna walk right in the front door, kick the rear end of any of the bad guys who attack, then fight the lich in a battle to the death. A couple of things: A.) I don't know why the Hell you're insisting on being insulting about this, and deciding to interpret every argument I make to some sort of self-mocking caricature. B.) It would seem that Rich is writing a comic, and that he is not expressly detailing his every nuanced plot point; saying that he's 'agreeing' with you is a bit egotistical. C.) You have a serious case of the "Ends Justify The Means" going on there. D.) Just because you don't agree with it or like it doesn't make it "lovely roleplaying". I'd like to think you've noticed that I haven't said anything you're doing happens to be retarded, but judging from the way you've been going through this whole thing you're probably going to just barely pick up on that fact and declare it a glowing endorsement of your viewpoint. E.) You can follow the letter of the code while still maintaining the intent of it, and your station as a Paladin. The whole gimmick with the Paladin is that they're held to a higher standard-- the fact that they don't lie to the enemy, that they're honorable, that they follow the Code of Conduct when it isn't convenient makes them is what makes them the heroic exemplar that they're supposed to be. Any git with a sword and divine power can club a heretic and call it a crusade. A Paladin does it with grace and humility. That's the point. quote:Is looting the burial chamber of the evil lord stealing or not? He's dead, and doesn't need it anymore, but you're taking his sword of plus whatever for your own for your own benefit, and not leaving payment. Is using smite evil an act of cruelty? It causes unimaginable pain to the monster you're using it on. Is chopping up a bad guy with your sword an evil act? You're causing undue pain to a creature. You should obviously use a padded quarterstaff as all paladin weapons. Think of it this way: when a police officer shoots somebody in the line of duty, in order to save a life, is he committing a crime? If a murderer gets put to death by the state, are they committing a crime? Say a criminal's assets are stolen, and put up for sale at a police auction-- is that a crime? The same reason these acts aren't crimes, is the same reason a holy champion blessed and ordained by the powers of Law and Good to fight Chaos and Evil doing what he does isn't evil: He's answering to a higher authority. That was way longer than I had originally intended.
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Apr 8, 2008 05:59
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Cabbit posted:Think of it this way: when a police officer shoots somebody in the line of duty, in order to save a life, is he committing a crime? If a murderer gets put to death by the state, are they committing a crime? Say a criminal's assets are stolen, and put up for sale at a police auction-- is that a crime? The definition of a crime is "forbidden by the state." Following this logic, the definition of an evil act in D&D would be "Paladins don't do it."
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Apr 8, 2008 08:14
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Hate to interrupt you guys mid-flow, but there's a new strip up! My prediction: the message goes through a few cells, and gets distorted. A lot.
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Apr 8, 2008 11:42
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DoctorTristan posted:My prediction: the message goes through a few cells, and gets distorted. A lot. Just think, Redcloaks message starting at the cells from one end, and the prisoner's message from the other. The cells in between could get mightily confused.
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Apr 8, 2008 12:11
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bgaesop posted:The definition of a crime is "forbidden by the state." Following this logic, the definition of an evil act in D&D would be "Paladins don't do it." The definition of "a non-Lawful Good act" can certainly be "Something a Paladin won't do", I would think. The difference here is that in my comparison, I was going for more of a "Paladins are police" thing than a "Paladins are state and national lawmakers" thing.
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Apr 8, 2008 14:01
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Cabbit posted:Think of it this way: when a police officer shoots somebody in the line of duty, in order to save a life, is he committing a crime? If a murderer gets put to death by the state, are they committing a crime? Say a criminal's assets are stolen, and put up for sale at a police auction-- is that a crime? And yet police officers routinely lie and deceive criminals in order to expose them and get evidence of their acts. No one thinks that it is evil or even deceitful for an officer to arrange sting operations, do they? Because these are necessary deceptions carried out in the pursuit of justice. If Paladins are not allowed to lie, ever, under any circumstance, are they allowed to omit the truth? Tell partial truths they know will be deceiving? That might be deceiving? Are they allowed to set traps and ambushes in war? If a Paladin were to free captives of an evil lord, is he not allowed to hide them in a wagon or something to get them out of the city, because thats a willful act of deception, isn't it? Can he hide their trail once they're outside the city? Having Paladins be automatons just seems to make them dull, and its ninety percent of the lawful-stupid you see all the time. Opening the possibility that there might be a time a lie is alright -- although a rare and unique circumstance -- means that both player and character will engage situations much more thoughtfully. Personally, I have no problems with O-Chul telling a lie here. He's not doing it for personal gain or out of any selfishness -- in fact, if he convinced Red Cloak that he had told him what he knew about the Gate, he would probably be killed. He isn't choosing to lie instead of taking some other, more honorable path. He's still doing everything in his power to fight evil (like swimming through acid full of sharks) There's literally nothing else he can do to try and save these people.
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Apr 8, 2008 14:39
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Cabbit posted:A couple of things: Actually, most of the stuff in the last post I made wasn't intended to be mocking, just me using a bunch of examples I pulled out of my rear end. I've been an rear end in a top hat recently, and while I don't apologise for it, I'm gonna try to be less of one. quote:B.) It would seem that Rich is writing a comic, and that he is not expressly detailing his every nuanced plot point; saying that he's 'agreeing' with you is a bit egotistical. Aw, hell. Forget it. I think he feels the same way as me, you think... something. quote:C.) You have a serious case of the "Ends Justify The Means" going on there. I still think Cap would make something up. quote:D.) Just because you don't agree with it or like it doesn't make it "lovely roleplaying". I'd like to think you've noticed that I haven't said anything you're doing happens to be retarded, but judging from the way you've been going through this whole thing you're probably going to just barely pick up on that fact and declare it a glowing endorsement of your viewpoint. I haven't said anything than can be construed as retarded. Me saying that the world being black and white, good and evil ONLY is retarded is the long-term result of me DMing a shitload, running a bunch of games, playing in others. If there's no gray areas, that lops off a big chunk of roleplaying ideas. Some are cliche, but a lot are just fun. Ignoring morality being anything except good guys are the end-all, be-all of goodness and virtue, bad guys are moustache-twirling villains who tie kittens to railroad tracks is BORING. Would it help if I didn't say "Retarded", but said "lazy"? quote:E.) You can follow the letter of the code while still maintaining the intent of it, and your station as a Paladin. The whole gimmick with the Paladin is that they're held to a higher standard-- the fact that they don't lie to the enemy, that they're honorable, that they follow the Code of Conduct when it isn't convenient makes them is what makes them the heroic exemplar that they're supposed to be. quote:Any git with a sword and divine power can club a heretic and call it a crusade. A Paladin does it with grace and humility. That's the point. quote:Think of it this way: when a police officer shoots somebody in the line of duty, in order to save a life, is he committing a crime? If a murderer gets put to death by the state, are they committing a crime? Say a criminal's assets are stolen, and put up for sale at a police auction-- is that a crime? I think this comes down to a personal disagreement with whether a lie is an evil act or not, honestly...
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Apr 8, 2008 16:01
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ZorbaTHut posted:This is a bit of a tangent, but when I run games where a specific view of Good and Evil are part of the setting, I sometimes play it as a Battle Of The Elements. Paladins are unable to lie, not because it's against their beliefs, but because they are Elemental Creatures of Good and thus are literally incapable of it. A paladin lying would be about the same as an ice elemental using a fireball - it just doesn't work. I really like this. It sounds like it would be both amazingly hard and really cool to play. I've always gone in the opposite direction and made paladins like Miko who believe that they're good while doing evil.
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Apr 8, 2008 16:26
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Kahrytes posted:Not really. If Captain America, the ideal Paladin That's way too meta to be useful here. Captain America isn't a Paladin, he doesn't have an alignment and the reality is this; Paladins have a Code that they are obligated to follow but obligation is not the same as compulsion. They can choose to go against the Code and may well suffer consequences for it. O-Chul has no few levels of Fighter under his belt, more than he does Paladin and so if lying to a creature who is purely evil and malevolent does indeed strip him of his Paladin abilities, it may be worth it in his eyes. He'd have a pretty strong case to make when he at some point gets free and asks a Cleric for an Atonement spell. Besides, his actions clearly have proven an inspiration to the slaves. O-Chul is the man.
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Apr 8, 2008 16:33
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Kahrytes posted:Not really. If Captain America, the ideal Paladin, were captured by the Red Skull, and told to tell him where the Allies had their army, he'd spit in his face. If faced with the threat of a bunch of troops getting murdered if he didn't tell him... Really? Here's the point you seem to be missing: the rules say Paladins can't lie, or they lose their powers. There is no caveat to that, no exceptions in the rules. Now, you want to say "That's stupid, I'm ignoring that rule", fine. You won't hear much argument from me. But the thing is, Burlew has made a point of following the rules, and it just seems weird that the Paladin Code would be the one that he ignores, especially after Miko.
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Apr 8, 2008 16:58
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Jonked posted:Here's the point you seem to be missing: the rules say Paladins can't lie, or they lose their powers. There is no caveat to that, no exceptions in the rules. Except the part where the rules say a gross violation of the code will cause a Paladin to lose his powers. Allowing for, say, non-gross violations in there somewhere?
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Apr 8, 2008 17:09
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Jonked posted:What? You're bring up Captain America, as an ideal paladin, when he's from a setting that doesn't have paladins nor concrete entities of Good and Evil, while talking about a setting that does? No, the rules don't. quote:A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. That's the only part of the rules that says anything about losing their powers. It then goes on to paladin code quote:Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
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Apr 8, 2008 17:14
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Jonked posted:the rules say Well, technically, people keep laying out the typical tenants of the Paladin. We honestly have no idea what the tenants of the Paladins of the Sapphire Guard are. Obviously turning your back on everything the guard stands for and then playing kill the liege lord is right out. Beyond that, unless the Sapphire guard lists off what their Paladins code of honor is, we can quote rules all day, and still be wrong. And obviously it's The Twelve who are going to determine what a 'Gross Violation' of the code is. After all, it's their call to strip the Paladin of his powers. I mean, A Paladin of Tyr, The Norse God of Law, is going to get a lot less leeway than a Paladin of Byggvir, the Norse God of Beer.
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Apr 8, 2008 17:19
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