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MelvinTheJerk posted:I love how violently angry Durkon gets over those puppets. Goddam I still love that avatar.
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Jun 2, 2008 22:03
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Cabbit posted:You'll need to wait for every style of wizard except Evokers, too, because that's pretty much all Wizards are in 4E. Also, a wizard can only own spell books containing a certain amound of spells. If he buys more spells than he's allowed to own, the older spells in his spell book go blank. 
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Jun 2, 2008 23:12
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Schwarzwald posted:Also, a wizard can only own spell books containing a certain amound of spells. If he buys more spells than he's allowed to own, the older spells in his spell book go blank. That will either be house ruled out or ignored by most DMs I bet, it's just a bit too putative for all but the most hard core of players.
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Jun 2, 2008 23:36
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The Werle posted:Goddam I still love that avatar. I left it for you. I was going to change it a few times, but never thought of anything all that great. So I figured I'd just be a good sport.
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Jun 3, 2008 00:21
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Gunjin posted:That will either be house ruled out or ignored by most DMs I bet, it's just a bit too putative for all but the most hard core of players.
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Jun 3, 2008 01:10
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Panty_HaX0r posted:I'm really wondering how many people will outright reject 4e. There's not much wrong with 3.5 and 4 just makes some really weird decisions. I haven't played that game in years, but except for a few odd things what I read about 4E doesn't seem that bad to me, I'm assuming there will be a group that adopts it and refuses to ever look back, a group that refuses to adopt it and will militantly protest its existence, and then a group that doesn't really care and will play whatever the dude who is DMing that week wants.
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Jun 3, 2008 01:39
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Gunjin posted:I haven't played that game in years, but except for a few odd things what I read about 4E doesn't seem that bad to me, I'm assuming there will be a group that adopts it and refuses to ever look back, a group that refuses to adopt it and will militantly protest its existence, and then a group that doesn't really care and will play whatever the dude who is DMing that week wants. In terms of just the 3.5 vs 4e point of view, there's also a fourth possibility.
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Jun 3, 2008 02:06
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Schwarzwald posted:Also, a wizard can only own spell books containing a certain amound of spells. If he buys more spells than he's allowed to own, the older spells in his spell book go blank.
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Jun 3, 2008 04:42
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CapnAndy posted:Isn't the solution there "buy a bigger spell book"? Because if that's an option, blanking older pages seems to be the game trying to be easy on you. "Okay, you've got 16 spells but you can only fit 10... so fit 10 of 'em in until you can get to the bookstore." No, there's a maximum limit to how many they can have access to (without feats or racial abilities that improve this). That number is 28. To be specific, it breaks down like this:
At certain levels, you get the option to replace spells you already know with a spell of your new level. You can also retrain once at each new level, and change a single spell you've chosen with another spell of that same level or lower (or a feat, or a skill). So.. yeah, Wizards are Sorcerers, but with toggle switches. Edit: Oh, and you don't reach that number (28) until level 26 (out of 30). You start with 2 at will slots, 1 encounter, no utility spells, and one daily slot (and when you gain a spell slot for daily or encounter spells, you learn two appropriate spells). You can cast At-Will and Encounter spells without your book, but I think you still need it to prepare Utility and Daily spells. Cabbit fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Jun 3, 2008 |
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Jun 3, 2008 06:07
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That doesn't include Rituals, though.
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Jun 3, 2008 06:58
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I really miss the strips that had a punchline other than "lol Elan".
Calaveron fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Jun 3, 2008 |
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Jun 3, 2008 07:02
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Cabbit posted:All of the spells except Utility spells are damage spells. One of the design philosophies of the new edition was that offensive powers should do damage in addition to whatever their primary effect is, even if it's relatively paltry damage. Take Maze, for example; it does relatively low damage for the level you get it, but at the same time it removes its target from the battle until it manages to escape the maze. You're going to see a little damage added to save-or-die/save-or-suck spells developed in the future, as well. And yeah, the treatment of wizards and their spellbooks is one of the few complaints I have about the system, what little of it I've seen thus far. A wizard's power is balanced against the other classes, and that's as it should be, but if you don't count rituals, then they do lose a lot of their versatility. Anyway, for those who hang out here but in Trad Games, there's a 4th edition complain-a-thon going on here. Let's try to drag this thread back to OotS.
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Jun 3, 2008 08:46
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Cabbit posted:No, there's a maximum limit to how many they can have access to (without feats or racial abilities that improve this). What the gently caress is this poo poo. What an awful, awful, awful class design. I'm so not getting 4e after this.
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Jun 3, 2008 10:25
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Cuchulain posted:What the gently caress is this poo poo. What an awful, awful, awful class design. I'm so not getting 4e after this. It honestly isn't that bad. Wizards are now balanced with all the other classes. Yes, that means there are some wonky tradeoffs, but I think it is worth it. Of course, I think D&D has always been too magic heavy anyways, even when I was playing a spellcaster.
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Jun 3, 2008 10:45
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drat you all for making me think there was a strip update!  Also that wizard stuff is way too complicated for my attention span. Fighter, here I come!
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Jun 3, 2008 14:43
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Ashcans posted:drat you all for making me think there was a strip update! Fighters do the same thing, only they get half as many utility and daily spells (called 'exploits') and access to them all at once. Everyone does this, in fact.
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Jun 3, 2008 14:58
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Cuchulain posted:What the gently caress is this poo poo. What an awful, awful, awful class design. I'm so not getting 4e after this.  he's pretending there isn't an entire chapter dedicated to noncombat ritual magic that wizards and other casters can load up on without limit
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Jun 3, 2008 16:18
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Yes, I'm hiding the glory of taking ten plus minutes to cast Animal Messenger or Knock. Silly me.
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Jun 3, 2008 17:13
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Cabbit posted:Wizard stuff Cabbit posted:Yes, I'm hiding the glory of taking ten plus minutes to cast Animal Messenger or Knock. Silly me.
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Jun 3, 2008 17:15
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Cabbit cares.
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Jun 3, 2008 17:17
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It seems sort of excessive, and it means you really can't use them at all during any sort of emergency. It bugs me, what can I say?
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Jun 3, 2008 17:30
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Cabbit posted:It seems sort of excessive, and it means you really can't use them at all during any sort of emergency. It bugs me, what can I say? "Maybe it's not that big a deal that spying on your enemies or opening a long-range magic portal isn't instaneous or free, guys. I'm sorry for whining about it before."
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Jun 3, 2008 17:42
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Yeah, no, gently caress you. The high end poo poo can be justified taking that long, but the low level stuff can't justify that much effort. Thanks for being a total cock about me trying to keep an off-topic argument from going on by being diplomatic, though, shitheel.
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Jun 3, 2008 18:05
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Cabbit posted:Yeah, no, gently caress you. The high end poo poo can be justified taking that long, but the low level stuff can't justify that much effort. Thanks for being a total cock about me trying to keep an off-topic argument from going on by being diplomatic, though, shitheel. Dude. Dude.
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Jun 3, 2008 18:32
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Cabbit posted:Yeah, no, gently caress you. The high end poo poo can be justified taking that long, but the low level stuff can't justify that much effort. Thanks for being a total cock about me trying to keep an off-topic argument from going on by being diplomatic, though, shitheel. Yeah, I think it's fair criticism to say that a 10-minute (100 combat rounds) to cast a teleport spell means you're not going to be depending on it in an emergency... which leaves using it as a really expensive ferry. Kind of reduces the grandeur of magic. It would be a little better if the casting time was reduced as you gained levels, I think. Or if casting times varied, along with gold requirements. Is it really that unbalancing to be able to cast Tensor's Floating Disc after a minute of wand-waving?
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Jun 3, 2008 19:32
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Jonked posted::shh: He was agreeing with you :shh: Or, does it reduce the granduer of magic when you teleport by just snapping your fingers instead of carefully inscribing runes into the ground and chanting secret names? The former seems a lot more likely to be taken for granted. And it's not as though there aren't short-range, instant-cast teleports - it's stepping across a continent that takes ceremony. quote:It would be a little better if the casting time was reduced as you gained levels, I think. Or if casting times varied, along with gold requirements. Is it really that unbalancing to be able to cast Tensor's Floating Disc after a minute of wand-waving? I doubt the game would break if you could conjure a floating disk in five minutes or one minute rather than ten. On the other hand, I doubt the game would break if you took ten minutes to conjure a floating disk instead of one. Does it matter? It's floating disc!
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Jun 3, 2008 19:41
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Cabbit posted:Yeah, no, gently caress you. The high end poo poo can be justified taking that long, but the low level stuff can't justify that much effort. Thanks for being a total cock about me trying to keep an off-topic argument from going on by being diplomatic, though, shitheel. Yeah, I think it's fair criticism to say that a 10-minute (100 combat rounds) to cast a teleport spell means you're not going to be depending on it in an emergency... which leaves using it as a really expensive ferry. Kind of reduces the grandeur of magic. It would be a little better if the casting time was reduced as you gained levels, I think. Or if casting times varied, along with gold requirements. Is it really that unbalancing to be able to cast Tensor's Floating Disc after a minute of wand-waving?
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Jun 3, 2008 19:41
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Ferrinus posted:Or, does it reduce the granduer of magic when you teleport by just snapping your fingers instead of carefully inscribing runes into the ground and chanting secret names? The former seems a lot more likely to be taken for granted. If you're not going to RP out the ritual even slightly, just by describing it in the way you just did even, both equally lack in grandeur, honestly. And if you are, then you can include some of that in the casting of Teleport in 3.5 already. It does have a verbal component, after all.
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Jun 3, 2008 20:08
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4e looks video gamey as hell, though it probably will turn out to be a more balanced system. Also, less Elan, he's annoying.
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Jun 3, 2008 20:59
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Idran posted:If you're not going to RP out the ritual even slightly, just by describing it in the way you just did even, both equally lack in grandeur, honestly. And if you are, then you can include some of that in the casting of Teleport in 3.5 already. It does have a verbal component, after all. It's not a matter of description, it's a matter of ease of access. Long and arduous teleportation creates a different-feeling setting than prepared-ahead-of-time but instaneous and free teleportation does, and the same goes for teleportation by way of preset gateways versus teleportation by way of concentrating hard on any destination you please. For instance, the latter allows for those wacky scry-and-scrag lightning teleport raids on enemies while the former does not.
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Jun 3, 2008 21:06
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Ferrinus posted:It's not a matter of description, it's a matter of ease of access. Long and arduous teleportation creates a different-feeling setting than prepared-ahead-of-time but instaneous and free teleportation does, and the same goes for teleportation by way of preset gateways versus teleportation by way of concentrating hard on any destination you please. For instance, the latter allows for those wacky scry-and-scrag lightning teleport raids on enemies while the former does not. Ah, I see what you mean. I'll grant you that, it does create a different-feeling setting with this new style of spellcasting. It's not a feeling I'm interested enough in to warrant switching to 4e as my own main system, personally, but I can understand why others would, since I'll grant that it's an interesting alternate take setting-wise.
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Jun 3, 2008 21:11
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The thing I hated the most, the thing that drove me away from 3.5, is the fact that wizards can do loving ANYTHING without need for the rest of the party, all the combat time was spent doing what the wizard said and waiting for the wizard to calculate his damage, and there was no way to challenge the party because the wizard would just scry/teleport/kill every god drat thing. Seriously, the wizard was running the game more than I was, and unless I flat out said "your magic doesn't work this time for no good reason other than that you're pissing me off," which I refuse to do, the game disintegrated into "wizard wins." I'm sorry you're precious pinnacle of adolescent power fantasy has become, I don't know, balanced with every other class as opposed to being a hilariously topheavy demigod. You won't be teleporting to the end of the dungeon in the middle of a fight because doing that is the opposite of fun and the rules now support this. edit: 
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Jun 3, 2008 21:32
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The big point of having certain spells be rituals instead of regular spells is so that anyone can cast them. Now the Ranger can use Animal Companion if he wants to, the Rogue can use Knock, etc. So basically what SlimGoodbody said.
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Jun 3, 2008 23:41
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bgaesop posted:The big point of having certain spells be rituals instead of regular spells is so that anyone can cast them. Now the Ranger can use Animal Companion if he wants to, the Rogue can use Knock, etc. That and so they aren't actually more convenient than actual skill. Yes, Knock can replace a rogue...if you're willing to spend ten minutes and 50gp (or whatever it was) per lock. So yeah, if you haven't got one, I guess you're using your Mystic Unlocking Powers, but just by virtue of being a wizard you don't invalidate every other character besides the cleric, druid, and psion.
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Jun 4, 2008 05:17
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New strip:
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Jun 7, 2008 03:25
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Bwahaha, Hinjoker.
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Jun 7, 2008 04:37
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The box the books came in is a nice touch.
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Jun 7, 2008 04:46
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Bobulus posted:The box the books came in is a nice touch. Ha! I totally didn't notice that until you mentioned it. Are those the 4E books? edit: I like this ninja character. I hope nothing horrible happens to her. But it probably will. :/
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Jun 7, 2008 07:11
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SlimGoodbody posted:Ha! I totally didn't notice that until you mentioned it. Are those the 4E books? Yup. That's the Dungeon Master's guide he's looking at. 
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Jun 7, 2008 11:40
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I didn't notice the books/box either, great touch. I don't like this ninja girl thing, honestly, because it means more Elan-centered storyline, and I agree with many in this thread who think it's, well, kinda silly. I'd like to see Roy come back to life, I'd like to see something about the next gate, I'd even like to see more Xykon hijinks. Honestly, I'd prefer just about anything to this.
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Jun 7, 2008 16:13
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