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Mierdaan posted:(if low-end)
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Sep 18, 2008 21:13
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Misogynist posted:I need a handful of IBM GNS300C3 drives, since in spite of me having 4-hour replacement on these IBM cannot direct me to a single one anywhere in the country Sent you an IM, but I'll post here just in case you missed it... I've never heard of those drives. What machine are you putting them in?
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Sep 18, 2008 21:38
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M@ posted:I've got one 6080 Sorry about that 6080.  I'll vouch for M@, he's yet to let me down, and I've bought one or two things from him. I'll have a look see at the IX systems stuff, thanks. A 48-in-4u beige box chassis is just the kind of thing I was looking for to knock off this Sun X4500/J4000 stuff. Edit: Hah, I was just looking at the Xyratex stuff and being annoyed at no obvious link to resellers. http://xyratex.com/products/storage-systems/storage-F5404E.aspx I've had good luck with their DS14 shelves, I can't imagine this being much worse, besides the onboard raid. H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Sep 18, 2008 |
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Sep 18, 2008 22:02
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Misogynist posted:And you ain't kidding, the performance on the MD3000 is really not spectacular What do you mean by not spectacular? I mean, the most IOPS-intensive thing we're throwing onto it is Exchange 2007 install for 250-ish users pushing about 600 IOPS. Are we going to be unhappy?
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Sep 18, 2008 22:35
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rage-saq posted:Get an HP SmartArray P800 card and then attack up to 8 MSA60 12xLFF enclosures.
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Sep 18, 2008 22:43
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H110Hawk posted:Sorry about that 6080. No problem. I have a feeling if you ever want/need one it will be here waiting for you, with open arms. 
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Sep 18, 2008 22:44
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Catch 22 posted:I collected some IOPS data for my environment, and we are looking at a average of 300, top end 600 IOPS, excluding when my backup is running. I am looking at a Equallogic SATA SAN 8TB now (3000 IOPS), and its 50K+ or 60K+ for SAS. What software options are you looking at? Why are you buying 8TB of storage? Do you need 8TB? For 60k you can buy a lot of decent storage.
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Sep 18, 2008 23:52
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Alowishus posted:Just out of curiosity, in an HP environment, how does one add their own 1TB LFF SATA drives? Is there a source for just the drive carriers? Because using HP's 1TB SATA drives @~$700/ea makes this quite an expensive solution.
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Sep 19, 2008 00:02
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Alowishus posted:Just out of curiosity, in an HP environment, how does one add their own 1TB LFF SATA drives? Is there a source for just the drive carriers? Because using HP's 1TB SATA drives @~$700/ea makes this quite an expensive solution. I don't know if theres a SKU for the correct drive trays, generally I just tell customers to buy the HP drives and thats the end of it.
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Sep 19, 2008 01:18
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Absorbs Quickly posted:Thanks for that. Dell was trying to sell us those explicitly *for* use with freeBSD. I haven't tested with FreeBSD. I just know it's not on the HCL and FreeBSD isn't listed as being compatible with it on Dell.com.
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Sep 19, 2008 06:55
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1000101 posted:What software options are you looking at? Why are you buying 8TB of storage? Do you need 8TB? For 60k you can buy a lot of decent storage. Equallogic SANs come with everything, Replication, Snapshots, Exchange and SQL Shapshots and...well I don't know whatever other SAN vendors part out software wise. I need all of the options I just listed. I don't need 8TBs, I need 3.5 but 16 500GB SATAs running in RAID 10 give me the storage and speed I need. Dell loves to shove RAID 50 down my throat.
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Sep 19, 2008 14:34
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Catch 22 posted:I collected some IOPS data for my environment, and we are looking at a average of 300, top end 600 IOPS, excluding when my backup is running. I am looking at a Equallogic SATA SAN 8TB now (3000 IOPS), and its 50K+ or 60K+ for SAS. I'm curious how you're calculating 3000 IOPS for the Equallogic. 7200RPM SATA drives yield about 80 IOPS per spindle, so you would need 38 drives to reach 3000. You would need to fill the box with 15k RPM drives to get anywhere near 3000 IOPS. I can't imagine that the Equallogic is doing that fancy pilardata thing where they split up the disk and put the 'faster' data on the outside edge, but that'd be neat.
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Sep 19, 2008 16:44
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optikalus posted:I'm curious how you're calculating 3000 IOPS for the Equallogic. 7200RPM SATA drives yield about 80 IOPS per spindle, so you would need 38 drives to reach 3000. You would need to fill the box with 15k RPM drives to get anywhere near 3000 IOPS. I didn't calculate that number, that comes from my "Storage Specialist" at Dell telling me my peak IOSP to use a Equallogic. I calculated MY IOPS for my environment, and I added on to my real number to account for the RAID overhead. I assure you I wont argue if someone calls "bullshit". I don't trust anyone trying to sell me poo poo, thus why I am here. Its a nice device, but 60K for a SATA SAN just boggles my mind. He did show me a 2000 mailbox Exchange 2007 environment running off a SATA one though.
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Sep 19, 2008 17:09
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optikalus posted:I'm curious how you're calculating 3000 IOPS for the Equallogic. 7200RPM SATA drives yield about 80 IOPS per spindle, so you would need 38 drives to reach 3000. You would need to fill the box with 15k RPM drives to get anywhere near 3000 IOPS. It's not just drives, a lot of IOPS is provided by the intelligent cache of the array before it even hits the drives. You should always be wary of any IOPS benchmarks and statements, they're almost always useless - like a vendor benchmarking - often they benchmark such a small amount of data it doesn't even hit their back end and all comes from cache. Some monkey in a lab once saw the IOPS meter hit 300,000 IOPS so that will be what goes on all the slides and marketing outputs! Vanilla fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Sep 19, 2008 |
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Sep 19, 2008 17:53
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Catch 22 posted:
I would consider this to be awful. SATA drives just are not made for the random IO of Exchange. Can they do it? Sure they can if you use enough.....but I would always recommend using SAS / FC drives. Also, you shouldn't share exchange spindles with other applications because they will just grind to a halt. So that means dedicating spindles for exchange. If you use large SATA drives then you have a huge amount of wasted space and typically Exchange wants performance, not massive capacity. 146GB and 300GB FC spindles would be perfect.
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Sep 19, 2008 18:04
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Catch 22 posted:I didn't calculate that number, that comes from my "Storage Specialist" at Dell telling me my peak IOSP to use a Equallogic. I calculated MY IOPS for my environment, and I added on to my real number to account for the RAID overhead. Yeah, if he's telling you 3k IOPS with that equalogic, he clearly has NO idea what he's talking about. Thats just peak IOPS for that unit under the right configuration, which is NOT how someone who knows how to design storage is going to talk about the speed of an array with you. Someone that knows what they are doing and isn't just some retarded sales drone parroting marketing information and talking points given to him in his 'training classes' is going to with you about what kind of IOPS you currently push, where you are going, and what kind of setup you need to achieve that. That being said I've setup a few Equalogics for customers who purchased them before engaging my services, and I don't really like them. Silly setup constraints like not being able to use all of the drives in the chassis in one array and other things. Their cabling setup of only 2x 1GbE despite having 3 ports was odd, their web management page was alright but left a lot to be desired. One of the customers who I setup said Equalogic 2 months is already going to be moving to a better SAN because it just wasn't cutting it as configured. And about his comment of an Equalogic box running a 2000 user Exchange 2007 environment, I'm going to either call bullshit or say it ran unacceptably slow. I've done a few 2000 user Exchange designs, and the last design will use 16x 146gb 15k HDD in RAID10 for the database and then a small LUN on a separate 6x300gb 15k RAID10 disk group for the log files. I really doubt a single equalogic box would be able to handle it acceptably unless it was a REALLY lightly used Exchange server. rage-saq fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Sep 19, 2008 |
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Sep 19, 2008 18:12
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Vanilla posted:I would consider this to be awful. SATA drives just are not made for the random IO of Exchange. FC anything is pointless for me. I have 60 users, most who dick off all day, read internet stuff, and redraft word docs. Server network load never peaks over 10Mb until I run the backup. I do hear you about SATA though, as honestly I am scared to move to it, but now that I have been really looking at our numbers, I don't think we need anything high end. Who knows, I might shoot myself after this is all done. But like the focus of my question, am I overpaying, as a EMC comes out cheaper, even with SAS, but could I be forgetting something? Am I losing out on a feature that I need and would out weigh the cost of a Equallogic? I mean, I am small potatos compared to all of you here, but I like the DR aspect of VMs in ESXi on a SAN.
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Sep 19, 2008 19:11
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Mierdaan posted:What do you mean by not spectacular? I mean, the most IOPS-intensive thing we're throwing onto it is Exchange 2007 install for 250-ish users pushing about 600 IOPS. Are we going to be unhappy?
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Sep 19, 2008 21:19
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Catch 22 posted:FC anything is pointless for me. I have 60 users, most who dick off all day, read internet stuff, and redraft word docs. Server network load never peaks over 10Mb until I run the backup. When I say FC I don't mean an FC network I just mean FC Drives - FC interface on the paddle. Very common these days on many arrays. SATA is fine as long as you know how to use it and not use it. I'd always say take some SATA with some FC because you WILL end up needing it! Dell do resell EMC stuff but they prefer selling Equalogic as they get paid more for selling it and they can go lower on price. Dell is all about volume and price. Let's start fro the bottom. What are you after? How much capacity? What are you going to put on it? What do you want? What apps? Typical users? etc etc.
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Sep 19, 2008 21:32
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vendors almost always quote the iops that the controller nodes can handle if they had an infinite number of spindles behind them. Read it as a ceiling not a median or a floor.
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Sep 19, 2008 21:42
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Vanilla posted:Let's start fro the bottom. What are you after? Vanilla posted:How much capacity? 1TB for Data/SQL/Exchange, 500Gigs for VMs, 500Gigs for Snaps, 1TB for extra growth on top of what is already allowed for in the former numbers. My enviroment uses about 550Gigs as of right now, that's EVERYTHING on my tapes and estimated OS/Applications size. Vanilla posted:What are you going to put on it? Again -everything, Flatfiles Data, SQL, Exchange and my Local VM store Vanilla posted:What do you want? Vanilla posted:What apps? See above, if you need more detailed kinds of apps, they are all flatfile crap, nothing special. Vanilla posted:Typical users? 30 Lawyers 30 Staff/Secretary...they pittle around in word docs, web apps, and emails between counting large piles of money. (i.e. - dick off all day as said before.)
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Sep 19, 2008 22:30
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Catch 22 posted:A SAN to host everything, Flatfiles Data, SQL, Exchange and my Local VM store to boot from, and something that will play into my DR plan for replicating offsite at some point set for late next year. For such a small number of people you could get away with a NAS device that is capable of iSCSI rather than a SAN. With the SAN you're going to have to cough up for swiches, cables and Host Bus Adapters. I see a lot of large companies these days not even pushing Fibre Channel and you're a lot lot smaller than they are. You can also get away with sharing spindles for your key apps, the number of people you have and their lethargic work style you describe i'm sure you'll be ok. Now as I said above i'm an EMC guy so everything I propose will be *SHOCK HORROR* EMC! but there are alternatives. EMC NX4 Dual Blades for High availability CIFS license for windows shares iSCSI License 12 x 300GB 15k SAS drives giving 2.3TB usable in R5 7 x 1TB drives giving 3.6TB usable in R6 (Scales to 60 drives total) - not really needed but I felt like putting them in 3 years HW and SW maintenance Replication possible when you add second box 4 x Fibre Channel ports so you can add FC hosts later on - direct connect if need be. http://www.emc.com/products/detail/hardware/celerra-nx4.htm I don't know the kind of discount you'd get but you'd be looking at about $25k-30k i'd imagine. Vanilla fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Sep 19, 2008 |
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Sep 19, 2008 23:18
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As an alternative; http://www.netapp.com/us/products/storage-systems/s-family/s-family-product-comparison.html you get iSCSI and CIFS for free though. Pay for options you might find useful: Snap Manager for MS Exchange Snap Manager for VMware Snap Manager for MS SQL EMC and NetApp both make fine products and it shouldn't be too difficult to get an eval. Both should come in <60,000 USD. NetApp may be cheaper since RAID DP will give you sufficient performance without having to buy double your required capacity in disks. It also virtualizes storage on the backend making management a little less of a hassle for you.
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Sep 19, 2008 23:34
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1000101 posted:As an alternative; Cool, I will get on that Monday. I would need all the Snap Managers you just listed as well. Thanks for everyone help. This lets me know I need to keep hunting a bit more.
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Sep 19, 2008 23:42
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 Click here for the full 1088x747 image. magic yellow box
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Sep 20, 2008 01:17
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Catch 22 posted:Cool, I will get on that Monday.
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Sep 20, 2008 05:50
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StabbinHobo posted:
What? Is that a tool? Google turns up nothing for that. How did you make that chart?
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Sep 20, 2008 15:55
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Catch 22 posted:What? Is that a tool? Google turns up nothing for that. How did you make that chart? If I had to guess it's just snmp data graphed with something like cacti/rrdtool. Edit: Jesus, you would think they could just sell you a SNMP license. H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Sep 21, 2008 |
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Sep 20, 2008 19:07
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^^^ I wish, I harped on them about exposing an snmp interface and mib a ton but no budge, they'd rather sell their "reporter" productCatch 22 posted:What? Is that a tool? Google turns up nothing for that. How did you make that chart? its the built in stats grapher in the 3par gui client
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Sep 20, 2008 19:21
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Any storage guru's recommend any books/guides/technical manuals for learning SAN's? I recently started a job at a Data Center, and am looking to make myself more attractive for promotion. Cisco Cert + SAN experience should fit that bill nicely imo.
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Sep 22, 2008 08:06
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Wanted to say thanks for all you advice, I have put together a quote for an EMC CX4 and its coming out with SAS, more storage space that before and should cover all my needs while being 30K cheaper than the Equallogic. Goons - You rock.
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Sep 23, 2008 20:57
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Wicaeed posted:Any storage guru's recommend any books/guides/technical manuals for learning SAN's? I recently started a job at a Data Center, and am looking to make myself more attractive for promotion. Cisco Cert + SAN experience should fit that bill nicely imo. pet peeve/grammar nazi. Use an apostrophe to denote possession (The guru's ball is green), add an s or es to make a noun plural (gurus are great, SANs are special). I doubt you're going to find a lot of books for learning SANs (although I could be wrong). A lot of them are proprietary and there aren't standard interfaces. Some of the terminology/storage/FC/iSCSI basics might be found in a book, but experience is king.
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Sep 23, 2008 21:52
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Anyone else going to be at the HP Storage Symposium in Colorado Springs next month? Send me a PM, I'm staying at the Broadmoor (as is everyone else I imagine)
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Sep 23, 2008 22:55
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brent78 posted:Anyone else going to be at the HP Storage Symposium in Colorado Springs next month? Send me a PM, I'm staying at the Broadmoor (as is everyone else I imagine) Hmm, are you going through a distributor or through HP? One of my distributor guys whispered something about another storage event soon (last one was in SF).
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Sep 24, 2008 04:37
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rage-saq posted:Hmm, are you going through a distributor or through HP? One of my distributor guys whispered something about another storage event soon (last one was in SF).
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Sep 24, 2008 18:09
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Wow, maybe this is best for another thread but I just came in to rescue someone from a SAN disaster. Apparently, they had two Storage Arrays with Remote Mirroring capability. The data was on Array 1 and the matching lun on Array 2 was new. A "Create Remote Mirror" command was issued from Array 2. Apparently, they thought that it would realize that the lun on Array 2 was empty and copy the data from Array 1 onto Array 2. poo poo, I couldn't even do a data resuce. Oh well, it was a non-critical system and they had backups from not long ago.
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Sep 25, 2008 08:40
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Spoon Daddy, who do you work for? My employer just had a SAN failure the other day that managed to take down our backbone for all of our west coast customers. We had 60 customers down at one time, and it took over 12 hours to bring them all back up. Wasn't a happy day
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Sep 25, 2008 15:06
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1000101 posted:What software options are you looking at? Why are you buying 8TB of storage? Do you need 8TB? For 60k you can buy a lot of decent storage. Your not kidding, I just got a quote on a EMC, for a AX4-5i DP with 1.7TB of SAS 15K drives and a second DAE with 12TB of SATA 7.2K including my SnapView, Navisphere, and SAN Copy for 30K. I also found out that the Equallogic Dell buy is making for bad blood between EMC and Dell as they are trying to push the Equallogics on people (like me) that don't need or want to pay that much for a poo poo SAN (again, like me). Screw Equallogic and the Dell horse they road in on. I'm sold on the EMC after all this. I did look at NetApps but I had some issues with how they perform as the array fills. spoon daddy posted:...they thought that it would realize... Wicaeed posted:Spoon Daddy, who do you work for? My employer just had a SAN failure the other day that managed to take down our backbone for all of our west coast customers. We had 60 customers down at one time, and it took over 12 hours to bring them all back up. How does a SAN fail? I mean, I can see by SpoonDaddys way of failing, but has anyone had a SAN truly fail? And I don't mean you ignored it after it had multiple hardware failures. I mean, everything is working and BAM, SAN dead. Catch 22 fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Sep 25, 2008 |
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Sep 25, 2008 15:07
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Catch 22 posted:How does a SAN fail? I mean, I can see by SpoonDaddys way of failing, but has anyone had a SAN truly fail? And I don't mean you ignored it after it had multiple hardware failures. I mean, everything is working and BAM, SAN dead. We once hit a bug in Data Ontap while resizing a LUN that knocked one head offline, then the other head took over and continued the same operation, hit the same bug and died too. It took about an hour for everything to come back up and be happy after replaying the logs, but I would classify that as a failure.
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Sep 25, 2008 15:37
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Maneki Neko posted:We once hit a bug in Data Ontap while resizing a LUN that knocked one head offline, then the other head took over and continued the same operation, hit the same bug and died too. It took about an hour for everything to come back up and be happy after replaying the logs, but I would classify that as a failure. I would say so. Wow, was this a firmware bug?
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Sep 25, 2008 15:52
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