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Honest Thief posted:So, I'm playing the PS2 game but it gets old really fast, does it get any better once I leave the snow levels? It gets bloodier, for what it's worth. Upgrading your sword speed to the max makes it slightly more bearable.
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Jun 15, 2009 18:20
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I've put up a Berserk mangacast for you guys to enjoy (vols 30-33 ~ will catch-up to 34 soon). The mangacast is like a podcast but for manga. It works with eManga, which is a manga-viewer/library organizer. Basically, you subscribe to the mangacast in eManga, and eManga periodically checks the mangacast for new Berserk releases. If it finds any, it downloads it for you right into your library. For more on this, I refer you to the eManga/mangacast thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3149909 Mister Roboto fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Jun 20, 2009 |
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Jun 17, 2009 05:12
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Andrigaar posted:I still can't recall if I ever beat that game. One of the later levels is this horrific sequence of running towards the camera while instant kill chases you down. It's miserable. It might be that I never beat it higher than normal if there are multiple difficulties though. Ya, I can get to Zodd on easy but haven't quite figured out the trick to beating him yet. Closest I got was using the jumping slash combo for a quick one - two and then backing off again to avoid his attack until I got my berserk rage up and can really pour it on him. Honest Thief posted:So, I'm playing the PS2 game but it gets old really fast, does it get any better once I leave the snow levels? I just got this working for the first time yesterday, and it is seriously 10 times better than the Dreamcast game. I could see it getting old if you spent a lot of time in the same area. To move the game along at times it seems like your meant to run past enemies as opposed to trying to kill everything that moves, because they never end. Its crazy awesome when your in the mood to just kill things for an extended period of time though, which I almost always am. I just put on some heavy music and go to town. I love the shower of blood that drenches Guts as body parts fly everywhere. His 3D model looks amazing in a nice coat of red. Even his cape gets splattered. The level of detail given to that game makes it feel like the manga could have been based off of it, instead of the other way around. I love it.
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Jun 17, 2009 14:53
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LordMune posted:It gets bloodier, for what it's worth. Upgrading your sword speed to the max makes it slightly more bearable. yeah, that's a big no no, in order to make the combat work you have to level up your sword swing skill as soon as you can Demtor posted:I just got this working for the first time yesterday, and it is seriously 10 times better than the Dreamcast game. I could see it getting old if you spent a lot of time in the same area. To move the game along at times it seems like your meant to run past enemies as opposed to trying to kill everything that moves, because they never end. Still not there Yuke's....
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Jun 17, 2009 15:07
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I really want to play the PS2 game, but I can't justify the crazy cost and high shipping for a game that got a luke-warm reception like it did. Oh well, at least Guts is showing up as a character again. I sort of got tired of the crazy pope guy looking brainwashed, and Griffith posing for all the sunflares.
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Jun 18, 2009 01:37
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Andrigaar posted:I sort of got tired of the crazy pope guy looking brainwashed, and Griffith posing for all the sunflares. And Ganishka being a giant loving pushover.
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Jun 18, 2009 13:39
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Jimmybob posted:And Ganishka being a giant loving pushover. Well he was up against Grffith, what do you expect? His "droppings" might've won if the diciples and humans didn't work together too.
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Jun 18, 2009 18:35
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Having just finished re-reading pretty much everything, I've some new thoughts: Gatts does have "a Fate". It's the real kind of fate, the one that comes from you deciding things, as opposed to the prophetic kind you rebel against, etc etc. Also, either quiet a lot needs to come crashing down, or we're going to faced with Griffith being a good guy / making up for his past sin. And I don't see what needs to come crashing down crashing, what with the recent reveal-to-mortals of the Apostles. Hmmm... We've got two major themes, here. We have people given their power by otherworldly beings, with terrible cost, who are either horrible monsters, bastions of evil, etc, or follow Griffith. (Maybe we just haven't seen their depravity yet, tho) And we've got Gatts, who is about getting that power with your own two hands. Arguments could be made that that too comes with terrible price, but if you look at his followers, I just can't see it. Everybody talks about the two of them being shining beacons, but in very different ways; but it follows the same external / internal guidelines. Hmm. Dunno where to go next, but I wanted to share. I don't think it's going to "end" with a clear-cut Gatts vs Griffith fight, tho.
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Jun 19, 2009 21:08
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uhhhnarfanator posted:Gatts does have "a Fate". It's the real kind of fate, the one that comes from you deciding things, as opposed to the prophetic kind you rebel against, etc etc. No, he doesn't have a fate. That's not what fate means. Fate is predestination, either good or bad. The point of the work is that, in whatever way, mankind WANTS fate, it wants guidance, it was the concepts of "Good and evil", it wants God. Guts is different; he isn't sure WHAT he wants, but he wants it to be something made from his own hands. That's not fate. That's will. quote:Also, either quiet a lot needs to come crashing down, or we're going to faced with Griffith being a good guy / making up for his past sin. And I don't see what needs to come crashing down crashing, what with the recent reveal-to-mortals of the Apostles. Griffith doesn't care about them. That's the thing. He comes across as a saint and a savior, but it's all just part of his ambition. He and his Godhand created Ganishka, created who he'd be, set him up to rebel against them even now. He is a fated foe just so Griffith has a monster to defeat; and as fate, his defeat changed the world. The massive release of energies changed the fate of the entire world, mixing reality with the spiritual realm. This was the end result. Griffith is going to be King, but he'll be King in a new Dark Age that he and his kin created. quote:We've got two major themes, here. We have people given their power by otherworldly beings, with terrible cost, who are either horrible monsters, bastions of evil, etc, or follow Griffith. (Maybe we just haven't seen their depravity yet, tho) The thing is, it's less them given power as much as them abandoning their humanity for the sake of greed and solace. Sure they do have sad stories, and clearly they're defending people right now, but in the end they are monsters in the truest sense; they are beings who abandoned their humanity and sacrificed the ones they cared about the most in order to become something beyond human, something inhuman. They already committed an unforgivable thing, and they have become something fated to cause fear and death, and tossing away their tortured souls. quote:And we've got Gatts, who is about getting that power with your own two hands. Arguments could be made that that too comes with terrible price, but if you look at his followers, I just can't see it. He isn't pursuing power, he is merely embracing his hatred. He defies the fate of inhumanity the others embraced, and merely refuses to die.
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Jun 19, 2009 21:20
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People are making fate into a magical word. Guts has a fate just like anyone else. Guts accepts his fate. He is willing to risk his life to win and doesn't beg for mercy or ask for any help. That is what makes him different in the story. The other characters are all compromising or sacrificing something to change their fate. Guts doesn't. I think fate in Berserk is simply one's lot in life. Griffith was born a commonner. Gaston was born a tailor. Judeau was a jack of all trades, master of none. Caska was farm girl. However, all of them of them gave up something to escape their fates. Otherwise, Griffith would have remained a subject or at best a mercenary captain, Judeau would have never achieved greatness, and Caska would have been raped and forced into a life of servitude. Guts is unique in that his life or fate never has changed. He was always victim or rather pawn to fortune and fights to survive. He, in a either a self affirming or defeating way, refuses another life. Guts simply fights through his life and greets failure, which in his case is death, head on. For Guts, he is the sacrifice and the offering. He is willing to die and fail to achieve his dream. His dream happens to be the same thing that saves his life (swinging his sword). I see a lot of parallels between Guts and the blacksmith Godo. They were born for something and live to do it. Only in the sparks or conflict do they perceive something greater.
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Jun 19, 2009 23:10
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The impression I had was that when Guts was branded he was removed from the influence of fate. Obviously, being branded means you're probably going to die horribly and almost immediately, but something "probably" happening is not what fate is in Berserk. Fate is stuff like Griffith stumbling across the red behilit when he despaired, and him getting broken in the first place. That stuff was predetermined, and was hinted at way before it happened. Basically, there is "something" that determines everyone's fates, and since Guts is branded, he is not factored into this something's calculations. Hence, Guts could actually prevent fated events from happening, like Griffith ruling the world. Since Caska's branded too, this should apply to her as well. I might be completely off here, but I thought that was the gist of what the Skull Knight said back in volume 13 or 14, after Guts first got the brand.
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Jun 19, 2009 23:54
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Dorito Jesus posted:The impression I had was that when Guts was branded he was removed from the influence of fate. Nah, the brand very specifically means that he was fated to get eaten by demons, like within a few minutes of being branded. That he didn't means one of either two things, A) Guts is the ultimate badass or B) because he was born from a corpse (this is the theory I always heard bandied about), he has no fate and just does whatever it is he's capable of doing. Honestly though, I can't seem to find anyone who can confirm or remember any mention of column B from the actual comic, so although I'm still going to keep an eye out for it when I next reread Berserk, I'm pretty confident it's column A. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Jun 20, 2009 |
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Jun 20, 2009 00:00
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The whole thing about Guts is he was born without a fate. The brand didn't end up with him dying because he is immune to fate. He was born from a corpse and that is why.
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Jun 20, 2009 00:03
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temple posted:People are making fate into a magical word. Guts has a fate just like anyone else. Guts accepts his fate. He is willing to risk his life to win and doesn't beg for mercy or ask for any help. That is what makes him different in the story. The other characters are all compromising or sacrificing something to change their fate. Guts doesn't. but... fate is literally a magic thing in the series. They made it out to be that. There is literally a giant floating magic heart called "The Idea of Evil" who goes "I CREATE FATE BECAUSE MANKIND WANTS IT, THE GOD HAND'S WILL IS MY OWN". I mean come on. Guts also literally goes "gently caress fate" and does everything to spite it.
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Jun 20, 2009 00:13
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I think Guts relationship with fate isn't about some weird metaphysical thing involving the God of the Berserkverse, but rather just his behavior that defines him as The Struggler™. He should have died when his mom was hung. He should have died during the Eclipse. He should be dead a million times over, but it never takes, because he never gave up. "God" has an idea for him, but he denies it. I've always read it as parallel to the religious stuff; there are those blessed by fate (Griffith), those who are content to live their lives going with the flow (cannon fodder), and those who are taking the reins and doing their own thing (Guts). This is also backed up by the fact that Guts' support system (as is such) consists of otherworldly weirdos who exist on the extreme fringes of human consciousness. You have an elf who acts as his personal first aid kit, who previously couldn't even be seen by people who have embraced the same "God" that governs fate. You've got a witch, whose shamanistic mojo embraces the old timey natural spirits that are separate from the collective subconscious that gave rise to "Fate". Of course now that the whole deck has been shuffled with the merging of two planes of existence who the hell knows~
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Jun 20, 2009 01:01
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Guts has always been branded. The story arcs are just circles within circles. As child, Guts was believed to be cursed. Later, he was labeled as a threat to the Band of Hawk. Then, the failure of the Hawks was attributed to his absence (and not Griffith's overreaching). Finally, the God Hand gave him a literal brand and literal curse. The Idea of Evil and the God Hand are just meta concepts in the story to replace human antagonists with overarching human archetypes (in the Jungian sense). Instead of slaying soldiers, Guts is slaying concepts. Guts is now a meta concept himself of something I haven't quite placed. Maybe Guts represents human survival, with the primordial 'beast' as the extreme expression of the berserker armor. If you look at the people allied with Guts, it is out of survival. When the Band realized Griffith was beyond redemption after his torture, they turned to Guts to survive as a group. Guts's current party is more or less allied to survive the eviction from their previous associations. Caska is an exception but I think she is the only non repeated or wild card player out of the other characters. The Idea of Evil and the God Hand is murky for me. I think they represent the truly base side of humanity but ultimately, it is based on conceit. That is why Griffith, the man with the greatest conceit of rejecting his station to become a king, is the prince among all. Void thinks he knows he knows everything, Slan seeks others to please her, Ubik tries to scrye the motivations of others and deceive. Conrad is still unclear to me but I think he judges the worth of life (which is nothing). Their immortality is the ultimate conceit towards mortals because all mortals must die. They have sought to escape death. The God Hand is the antagonist to Guts because they try to change fate. Guts is the fate acceptor, thus he destroys those that manipulate destiny. This description of Guts is compatible with his being the representation of survival. He is fully willing to die as any mortal creature must accept. Guts simply wants to survive as long as he can. But he also seeks to kill those that do not think they should face the same fate as others. So, he seeks to kill the immortals and he's pretty successful at it. The Apostles, like the enemy soldiers (with Bazuso being the icon in conceit and Guts first noteworthy opponent), traded something something to become immortal. Guts denies them their conceit by cutting them down. edit: Guts says it at the end of the Black Swordsman (1st chapter) to the Baron. He says something to the effect that he is going to do to the Baron what he did to others. I don't think Guts was speaking from a purely judicial standpoint but a kind of justice in equality. The Baron was going to suffer and die just like everyone else. There is so much repetition in the story that if you understand the youth of Guts, you can understand everything else. Guts survived his mother's dead womb and continues to survive everything else life tosses his way. That's his fate, to be hunted and somehow escape. He is exceptional because he doesn't try to avoid it and now he seeks to deny others their escape from fate. Gambino resented Guts for surviving, blamed his wife's death on Guts, and tried to kill him. Griffith is no different. Guts had to flee and survived a wolf attack. Guts has been killing wolves ever since, in a myriad of forms. Where Caska fits into this is unknown to me but it is pretty interesting and keeps me reading. edit again: The only 'magic' of the story is there to make it interesting. You can only kill soldiers for so long. The magical fate and magical demons are no different any other fate or evil human. They are variations to elevate the story. But at the core, it is the same struggle and opponents. temple fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Jun 20, 2009 |
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Jun 20, 2009 01:02
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Ah, looks like I was mistaken. The conversation I was thinking of was at the end of volume 18. Skull Knight says that the brand is beneficial to Guts because it pulls him into the Interstice, and hence the reason of the real world doesn't really apply to him anymore. I guess I mentally swapped "reason" for "fate".
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Jun 20, 2009 01:52
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Guts is fated to be dead. He is as far as fate holds, dead. He was supposed to have died as a sacrifice. Because he's fated to "death" by means of his brand, he is now in the interstice between reality and the spirit realm at all times; in neither entirely. He was as such a wild card totally outside of fate, the only one. Before that, his every action played into the creation of Griffith as part of the God Hand; he was in fact the key figure that formed the turning point which drove Griffith to where he needed to call upon the power of the Behelit. Now that the two worlds are one, it may be that he's the only one OUTSIDE of it.
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Jun 20, 2009 05:42
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How bout we stop all this arguing about fate and agree that Guts is loving badass and we can't wait for him to rip into The Next Big Monster. Cause I can't loving wait. Hurry it up, Miura!
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Jun 20, 2009 06:20
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Zorak posted:Guts is fated to be dead. I think Guts is being interpreted into some kind of Neo from the Matrix style 'bridge between two worlds' type of character or some super duper badass that kicks the devil in his teeth character and that isn't the intention at all. I think Miura is trying to say something through the characters about human nature. There is a lot of misdirection and subtext in Berserk. Don't confuse plot devices like the behelits or brands as being important to this story. Its what Miura doesn't say that's more telling.
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Jun 20, 2009 07:08
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temple posted:But aren't we all? No I mean Guts is, for all the universal paperwork, a deadman. He's been put in the books as dead, he played his part in the fate of things, he served as part of Griffith's "get into God Hand" price. He's legally dead in the spiritual sense, and the only reason he hasn't is because Guts isn't going to stand for that crap and anyone who comes to "collect" tends to get a slab of iron through them. There is metaphor and imagery in Berserk, certainly, but uh... some of it is deliberate symbolism because of the fact that the spiritual realm is supposed to reflect the human concept of karma. Human belief shapes the spiritual realm, so the overall nexus of human thought creates concepts of fate and destination and such as an actual thing in the world.
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Jun 20, 2009 08:09
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temple posted:But aren't we all? We're fated to die eventually, not to be currently dead. Guts was a pawn of Fate. He played an intimate role. Then he was branded, marked as a sacrifice, and Fate was done with him. As far as Fate is concerned, he is already dead. But the curse of the brand is also a hidden blessing. If Fate considers you dead, it no longer has the power to ensure your death. Guts can struggle on.
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Jun 20, 2009 09:16
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No; I think Gatts still has a fate. There are too many "significant coincidences"* in his life (post-brand) for it to be otherwise. That said, it may not be that the Idea of Evil is the one controlling that fate (which begs the question, what can, since the Idea is supposed to be the be-all-end-all), or that it is, but telling everyone else a different prophecy. Zodd's prophecy back when we first met him (about "you'll meet your death when that man's ambition fails) wasn't that of a prophet; a lot of the future forecasts in Berserk seem to be like that. The Apostles certainly aren't in on the loop, although they often spout stuff about destiny and fate. * Coincidences that occur in significant ways or at significant crossroads can't really be considered coincidence. The biggest one in Berserk is the encounter with the Witch; there was no other significant plot pulling them along that path (unlike, say, the Tower of Rebirth, where Gatts followed Caska who likely followed Fetus McFetuson) - and they just wandered into it. Whole forest; wandered into that clearing/tree. And everything that has come out of that pretty much chance encounter has been goddamn significant.
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Jun 20, 2009 09:44
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Don't mistake plot conveniences for the influence of Fate. Guts stands outside Fate to some degree. The question is whether he is merely a "jumping fish," like the Skull Knight, capable of escaping causality only for a moment, or something more powerful that can defeat causality altogether.
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Jun 20, 2009 09:58
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A different debate. Does Miura consider the mythical force of "fate" to be the same as he did 20 years ago when the comic started? Has Gutts' path of revenge changed due to this? Basically I'm saying people change over months and years. But decades? Unless he had one hell of a detailed bible he's never strayed from, a lot's going to have changed compared to how the comic looked to be heading several years ago.
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Jun 20, 2009 10:19
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Long story short because I see people tiring of this discussion. The brand or whatever magical property is irrelevant and just plot pieces. They represent the idea Miura is presenting and not transferring power to Guts. Why? Because Guts has always been like, before and after the sacrifice. The brand, armor, sword, fairies, and the such are just symbolic updates to keep Guts consistent with the rest of the story. On one hand, you have the affairs of men. On the other, you have states of mind. There are two forces of fate. There is a fate you are born into and fate that you chose. The magic of the story is symbols in which the characters are represented. Guts have been succeeding in both areas so maybe the idea of fate is irrelevant. Guts remains not because he is some magical hero or superior warrior. He remains because of his character. When you shoot a demon in the mouth with cannon, it is hard for me to find some magical explanation for it succeeding. Which I find that very interesting because it was cannon fire that crippled Gambino and Guts's sword that finished him. Maybe Guts is just doing what he always does, slay evil whether in human or demon form. temple fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jun 20, 2009 |
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Jun 20, 2009 16:43
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I have a wholly different take on the whole matter of fate (I think that framing it as strictly fate versus free-will completely misses the larger philosophical theme). It will take me a bit develop my theory before I directly relate my observations to fate itself. I will also touch on Berserk metaphysics at the end to explain how I think magic fits in all this. First I'll list a few passages on which I base my reasoning: In chapter 16 when Griffith saves Caska, he doesn't kill the noble - he gives her a sword so she can save herself. When Caska asks to join, he says "Whether you follow me or not, it's your choice". In chapter 17, Griffith says to Caska: "That old baron, was interested in me. I'm interested in his money. It was quid pro quo [in the anime he says trade]. The realization of my dream... I don't feel responsible when soldiers die following my order. Because... My men chose to fight those battles. Depends on the corpses of my men." Here Griffith is rationalizing the sacrifices of his followers, and in turn rationalizes sacrificing himself. At the end of the chapter Caska says she want's to be [Griffith's] "sword". In chapter 10 Griffith asks Guts to assassinate Duke Julius, and explains his reasons. After hearing the reasons, Guts says "This isn't like you. Don't make it so complicated. Just order me. Like you normally do." In chapter 12, Guts overhears Griffith say the following to the princess: "A dream - it's something you do for yourself. Not for others. [...] The life that seeks... just to live another day... Is unacceptable! [...] A friend would not just follow another's dream. [...] A friend in my mind is someone that is my equal." This is what makes Guts leave the Band of the Hawk. In chapter 18, Caska tells Guts that he changed Griffith. In chapter 73 Guts asks himself if he is the one who changed Griffith. What triggers the ceremony is Guts coming to to Griffith's rescue (he says he will never "forgive" him if he touches him "now"). In chapter 83 "God" reveals himself as an "idea" and humanity's "collective" consciousness to Griffith during the eclipse. God presents itself as a "common conciousness that transcends individuality". [This chapter was pulled from the Volumes. I believe that it is because it blatantly reveals not just "God", but rather the "nature of God". This is important for my conclusion.] Finally in Chapter 2 of volume 3 (The Guardians of Desire 5), Griffith says to Guts "You are good only as a sacrifice". He also says "He's just one useless man". Godhand Slan says "If that man can join us too, that'll be... amazing", and Godhand Conrad says "But he wasn't chosen by destiny. He can't be one of us". Since "God" is the collective consciousness of humanity, and it controls fate, I think that the concept of fate in Berserk is meshed with the concept of collectivism vs individualism, which is the ethical dimension of Berserk's over-arching philosophy. Both Griffith and Guts seem to attract each other since the beginning since they are both appear to be individualists. Griffith pursues his dream and his own purpose - it is the most important thing to him. Guts is self-sufficient, unique, and doesn't "join-in". He leaves the mercenary band with his reward when we first see him (before he meets Griffith), refusing to take a secure position that would undermine his independence. Griffith takes notice of him, and decides he "wants" him. But here is the difference between the two - only Guts is really an individualist. Griffith desired to "acquire" Guts. Not to associate with him freely, but to "own" him. He comes to the conclusion that his dream requires him to sacrifice others. And so he may have his own dream, but it is a dream that requires to to sacrifice others. In this sense, he is not really an individualist. He is not self sufficient. He can't just "make trades" like he did with the baron. He needs to make sacrifices of others. Back after the 100-man battle, Guts notices the lights of people's goals. Caska notices that they all gather around Griffith's fire. Then Guts says that he just stayed to warm up, but will now leave. Guts rejects dependence on Griffith. When Griffith meets the "God" who reveals itself as the collective consciousness of humanity, he takes it's offer to be reborn in exchange for the sacrifice of all his followers. They all die safe for Guts (and Caska). In this sense, the collective conciousness demanded these sacrifice, and got every one that was dependent on Griffith. The only one to survive the commands or dictat of "fate" was Guts. Guts doesn't recognize the right of the collective consciousness, or fate, to command his destiny - he commands it. Let's test this hypothesis - go back to to Volume 3 Chapter 3 - when the Count refuses to sacrifice his daughter Theresa, the Godhand Void says the thread of destiny has been denied. The count is taken in by the collective (sacrificed to the collective). A few pages before Femto says "[If you don't do it] you will become one with the black ocean of souls like a drip of water in a vast ocean". So fate is nothing more then the will of the collective. It has no power if you just say no. Anybody can break it's "thread" by refusing to submit to it. Guts has refused (when he left the Band of the Hawk!), and so it holds no power over him. Even the character design reflects this. Guts, the individualist, is a one-man army. He can withstand a 100 men, and charges first as if he was the only one on the battle-field. Griffith is "naturally weak", and must build an army. Early on he can defeat Guts in battle, but by the time Guts has left he can no longer do so. He is powerless. His power lies in those who depend on him. In turn he depends on them. Notice that the God Hands don't just let you sacrifice anything to become an Apostle or Godhand of the collective. That would just represent sacrificing others to yourself. They require you to sacrifice your highest value(s) - this represents the other side of the coin. By sacrificing your highest values, you also commit self-sacrifice. In other words, to become an Apostle or Godhand of the collective one must sacrifice others to himself and himself to others - he must embrace collectivism entirely. Of note: if God is the collective (ch83), God Hands are the "hands" of the collective. So in conclusion, in Berserk fate is the pull of the collective, and Guts represents the individual. He lives for his own sake, and he sacrifices no-one to himself, nor himself to others. Griffith is a fallen individualist (he goes from telling Caska to do what she wants [join or not], to telling Guts that he wants him, to sacrificing them all) who is reborn the hand (the tool) of the collective - the messiah of the collective (the "pope" calls him the devine saviour in chapter 285). He even has the ability to create collective dreams (see chapter 291). A note on Berserk metaphysics: In chapter 237 the Skull Knight tells Guts that the Hawk "is now something that is outside the real world. There is not a single one who threatens him in the real world." In other words... Femto isn't real(!) (he doesn't exist in reality). Remember how God says in chapter 83 that it is an "idea"? The Behelit, the God Hands, the Apostles... It's all magic. Super-natural. In other words, unreal. Jump back to chapter 82: Godhand Slan says "until this time, that dream was known as Griffith. And this dream would end when you opened your eyes (if Griffith had refused, eclipse over, everything magic vanishes). But you shall not wake; we are in the dream. Day shall not break; we are in the night." Remember the count from volume 3? When he dies, what is left of his human body remains. Dream over. Remember how everybody calls the eclipse a "nightmare"? Or how Femto affects the collective dreams of humans in later chapters? Or how he merges the dreamworld (hydras and unicorns) with the real world in later chapters? Griffith isn't "real". As for the magic introduced on Gut's side in volume 24+, this is a method for Guts to fight back (Skull Knight explains this in chapter 237) since Femto is magic. Notice how all this magic is very elemental (fire, wind, water). The author seems to create a sort of "natural" magic that can interface with the astral plane and fight with the unreal "God" (the collective). He does this using "fairies" (the elemental weapons use fairies). Since he kept this over from the first volume, it is clear that he envisions fairies as central to man's "natural" interaction with the astral plain. We don't know the nature of fairies quite yet, and it will be interesting to see how he makes sense of them (anti-collectivism/evil creatures?). As for the Berserker armour, I think it allows Gut's true self, his ego, to be unleashed (notice the chains). Only now he can fight in the astral realm. Prediction-time: Gut's EGO (the inner-lonewolf, the individual) will be able to defeat Femto (messiah of the collective). In chapter 290 the inner wolf declares in a dream that once it is unleashed it will tear everything around apart including his comrades (it talks of hatred). This is an allusion to Gut's lack of purpose (see Griffith quotes, or think back to Guts saying this himself) - he just swings swords. Someone who fights for the sake of fighting will just go on a rampage. Gut's challenge will be to tame his wild hatred and lack of purpose, and come to truly open himself to his comrades as friends. If Guts cannot control his self, he will destroy himself (think back to Griffith's quote). This is a philosophical argument by Miura against nihilism. Purpose is all-important. Once Guts truly masters his self (the wolf), he can defeat Femto (the hawk). ebrawer fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jun 20, 2009 |
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Jun 20, 2009 17:17
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temple posted:Guts remains not because he is some magical hero or superior warrior. He remains because of his character. Or maybe, just maybe...he's the main loving character. Just a thought though.
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Jun 20, 2009 22:39
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ebrawer posted:Holy poo poo, this is probably the longest post ever made in regard to a comic book ever. I'm honestly of the opinion that the author had a goal in mind as to where the story was going and it slowly changed over the two decades he's been telling it. Guts is weak as poo poo originally in the first few volumes compared to his fight against the monkey guy in the Golden Age arc which actually should predate the first few volumes. Then when we come to the present a second time he is suddenly the ultimate swordsman. I love the story but the long time it's taken to produce it is showing it's toll on consistency.
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Jun 21, 2009 00:31
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YouTuber posted:Holy poo poo, this is probably the longest post ever made in regard to a comic book ever. I'm honestly of the opinion that the author had a goal in mind as to where the story was going and it slowly changed over the two decades he's been telling it. Guts is weak as poo poo originally in the first few volumes compared to his fight against the monkey guy in the Golden Age arc which actually should predate the first few volumes. Then when we come to the present a second time he is suddenly the ultimate swordsman. I love the story but the long time it's taken to produce it is showing it's toll on consistency. Uhh... Guts was pretty strong in the beginning, he hasn't gotten any weaker? Your memory is probably failing you. Guts had a hard time fighting the monkey guy, a rather standard Apostle, and in the first arc he wrecks an Apostle, an Apostle powered guy who was fundamentally immortal, and that Count who was uh... a much stronger/ larger/ nastier apostle than monkey guy.
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Jun 21, 2009 01:00
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YouTuber posted:Holy poo poo, this is probably the longest post ever made in regard to a comic book ever. I'm honestly of the opinion that the author had a goal in mind as to where the story was going and it slowly changed over the two decades he's been telling it. Guts is weak as poo poo originally in the first few volumes compared to his fight against the monkey guy in the Golden Age arc which actually should predate the first few volumes. Then when we come to the present a second time he is suddenly the ultimate swordsman. I love the story but the long time it's taken to produce it is showing it's toll on consistency. Yeah it started getting really long so I figured what the hell, go all the way. It's basically an essay... though not organized as one. I think the author really planned this out before putting pen to paper (not just the obvious vol 4-13 but more then we think). He isn't too inconsistent considering the 20-year time. ebrawer fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jun 21, 2009 |
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Jun 21, 2009 03:41
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Dude, I applaud. Not only is that the longest block of well-written argumentative text I've ever seen on an Internet forum, but what you've got to say feel pretty dot-on. I don't think Miura thinks of it directly in those terms, but I think your analysis of things fits everything just right.
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Jun 21, 2009 06:33
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Im in the boat of people who think while everyone else accepts fate, Guts is the only one that truly does not believe in it. He pretty much just says  to the whole idea of fate and does his own thing. With all the parallels between Guts and the Skull Knight, this is the one thing that sets them apart. The way I see it, the Skull Knight seems to have accepted fate and has given up his humanity so he could continue to forever fight the Godhand Viod. Zodd mentioned Guts' fate(for the second time) after he first put on the berserk armor. I hope Guts can prove Zodd wrong twice by accomplishing his goal with out following the same path that the Skull Knight has. v Thanks Gwynne fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Jun 23, 2009 |
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Jun 22, 2009 23:41
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Gwynne posted:The way I see it, the Skull Knight seems to have accepted fate and has given up his humanity so he could continue to forever fight the Godhand Ziod(I think that's his name). The big one with the exposed brain is named Void, IIRC.
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Jun 23, 2009 00:02
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Gwynne posted:I hope Guts can prove Zodd wrong twice by accomplishing his goal with out following the same path that the Skull Knight has. Remember, he is the fish that breaks the water's surface.
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Jun 23, 2009 15:40
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The big one with the exposed brain is named Void, IIRC. The more I re-read the more I get it. After reading through most of the chapters a 3-4 years ago, its amazing how much more subtle and deep it is (again) with a little experience. The demons are just expressing their inner desires. The Idea of God and the God Hand aren't so much magical beings as they are just ways for Miura to express the inner nature of men. When you see the demons, you aren't looking at spiritual beings in a literal sense. It is an expression of the mentality of the person. So, for Guts, he is just a beast clawing his way through life. But Guts can't rely on that otherwise he would lose his conscience. You can't stay wrapped in your own perspective. The spiritual realm is just a mirror. It is the spirit of the people that is projected. The good magic is oddly similar to the evil magic. But I think the good magic represents the good spirits of people. The harmony with nature (this considering the shito japanese perspective of the writer's culture) is expressing how some people are just nice. This counterbalances the demonic sides of people and the demons of the spiritual realm. I think Guts is the fish that can disrupt the shadow in the water. He can't change the nature of men but he can change its form while it is being projected on the world. In a way, Guts isn't magic but he has traveled so close to death that he understands life at a level that most can't comprehend. Farnese's attraction to him is evident by this due to her fear of the darkness or the unknown. Guts is brave in the darkness of the spiritual world(or the soul or mind, whatever). He is so close to it that people can't tell whether he is human or other. Maybe you have to b a little man and a little monster to survive. Which also explains Farnese's love for Silke. She was a evil person but she wants to change and be a witch (a good person in this story) to deal with the dark spiritual (mental) side of things in a positive way. The darkness in the spiritual world persists, whether it be seen from demons or the witches, but if you notice, Silke never fears the darkness whereas most people are consumed by it. I have a greater appreciation for Farnese and Silke after re-reading it now. Caska (Casca, I hate the translation inconsistencies), is just a female Guts. They are identical in so many ways. They both were raped, whether directly or indirectly, by someone they idolized. They both were betrayed. They both were instrumental in destroying their master. Gambino had a pet dog that Guts resented, Griffith had Guts which Caska resented. They both survive on. I think the story pits men and women as different in terms of self-actualization. The men seek to overcome some force to be realized whereas the women seek a connection to others. That's the difference in their dreams. In some ways, Caska is doing what Guts did. She has mentally left him where he physically left. I don't think she will be healed, I think she will come back as Guts did. But she will come back for the new party, like how Guts returned for the old Band of the Hawk. temple fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Jun 24, 2009 |
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Jun 24, 2009 03:59
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New chapter! Nothing happened! We see more of the effects from the merging of the planes. If last chapter was "ethereal world and physical world have merged, resulting in a typical fantasy setting" then this chapter was the exact same message in bold, flashing, neon letters. I think we also might have seen the birth of some future boss characters, but then again they might just be obscure references to mythological guys I'm not familiar with
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Jun 24, 2009 22:58
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Holy poo poo this loving art. I love the Dahli shout out.
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Jun 24, 2009 23:12
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Looks a little more inky than pencily. And finally the godhand returns.
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Jun 24, 2009 23:19
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Sindai posted:Holy poo poo this loving art. I love the Dahli shout out. Hieronymus Bosch, not Dahli. link. Unless you meant a completely different part then ignore me altogether. And seconding the "Holy gently caress" sentiments.
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Jun 24, 2009 23:43
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